Cyborg blues

[D4everman]

Hi gang....

I play SMACX in spurts...continuously for awhile, then I might not play for months. But this past week I fired it up and I have some new questions/comments. (at least new to me)



I haven't played in awhile, but I went straight for Talent level, chose the peacekeepers and had a mix of old and new factions (randomly picked.) Too easy. Probably because the other factions in the game acted exactly as I expected them to. I knew that the Cult would be be belligerent since I was bordered with them, and I knew Domai would turn against me as soon as he was finished fighting Yang. (And he beat Yang!) I also knew that the Data Angels would team up with whoever was left. (I really hate those guys. Sinder is about a good an ally as Domai...meaning she's not.) To be honest the only problems were Morgan and the Pirates.

The Pirates: I don't like them at all, as a faction or an opponent. Basically because they take a long time to kill. It wouldn't be so bad if just once they didn't turn against me.

Morgan- Morgan never seems to try to win the game if the AI controls him. All he had to do was go for his economic victory, but he always figures it would be a better idea to attack me even though I have him completely outmatched.

So after that game I wanted a better challenge. Again I picked random factions for opponents but I chose the Cybernetic Consciousness (sp?) . I usually like to play the UoP but I wanted something different. The Cyborgs seem close enough to UoP but without the free nodes, so I gave them a whirl.

First let me explain the frustrating start of the game(s). I don't particularly like islands...I hated it in Civ2 when you started out on an island and I'm not crazy about it in AC. So after twice starting off a small island, finally got an actual continent. The locale was rather rocky and dry, but hey, I'll terraform it, I thought. Within ten turns I found out the drones were right next to me. within six more turns I found the hive was on the other side of me. I still had scout patrols while they had synthmetal guys! What the hell?! I always choose huge planets on random maps so I can be alone for awhile to build my infrastructure! Why izzit that I always end up next to one of these jerks?

Well, that honked me off to no end so I restarted. Miraculously I got almost the same factions. Me as the cyborgs, against the drones, the UoP, the Believers, the Gaians, Morgan and the Cult. I played this game almost 8 hours straight and I'm probably going to lose.

I tried to stay out of any kind of wars. I even gave into demands for tech and money (reasonable demands at least) and I missed out on a lot of SP's that I wanted. But I had to concentrate on anti-drone facilities and network nodes in order to hold a candle to Zak. Normally I think I could have out teched him, but Zak had no enemies close to him, so without any predators gnawing away at him he felt free to try to eradicate the cult. I couldn't seem to get my bases to grow fast enough. I know the Cyborgs have a -1 growth, but it got really difficult to increase the sizes of the bases, keep them from rioting and defend myself against worm attacks and Miriam, who naturally decided to attack me when I wouldn't give her Superstring Theory.

Now at this point I can defeat Miriam, but whats the point? From a gaming standpoint I'm not going to win. Domai has already begun to outpower me and he's becoming more and more belligerent ( "I find your unwillingness to cooperate, etc") He's going to attack me soon and I can't beat him and Miriam at the same time.

Miriam also has the advantage of the AI cheating a bit. I took several bases from her, one of which had two plasma sentinels in it the turn before I attacked it. I have the Empath Guild so I checked inside of it before attacking. The next turn this base produced two missile rovers. From nowhere. Now that really pissed me off. That and Miriam's inexhaustable supply of unlimited range. Zak beat me to the HSA so taking Miriam's bases was hard. She kept probing me for tech so she could fight back. She didn't get much, but it was frustrating.

If I lose this game I blame myself, however. I should have tried to take out Miriam or the UoP right away instead of passively letting them build up. (Zak and I had a vendetta which began and ended with no shots fired. Eventually i caved in and gave him 100 credits for a truce. It wasn't worth the added worry of one of his ships attacking me while I was attacking Miriam.) The Cyborgs are much harder to play then I thought. The growth penalty makes it hard to have large bases and the combination of 'belligerent' foes made it hard to keep the peace and prosper at the same time. The Cult, the Believers and the Drones can be pretty dangerous if you let them get too strong and Miriam and Cha Dawn seem predisposed for violence.

(Interestingly in a quick game that I never finished I found the Cult right near me. I attacked and kicked them off of the continent. Then Cha lands two rovers near my HQ, kills a former and asks for a truce! and then a treaty of frienship. I ask him to leave my territory and he agress. Five turns later he lands one guy near another a base attacks a Battle Ogre I had standing outside of it in a sneak attack. Why? Before Cha could have taken my HQ easily but he asked for a truce! (I only had one scout in it when he rolled up with his rovers.) That was odd.

Well, if anyone can give me some advice on how I should play the Cyborgs I'd appreciate it. Thanks for bearing with my ramblings!

D4

[Earwicker]

There was a thread not too long ago about how they were an overpowered faction. Hmm. Try searching for that one and it might give you some ideas to toghen up the way you play them. I find the Cult a great faction, and a very strong one. Their efficiency allows for lots of bases without bureaucracy drones, and the research bonus is a great plus.

The usual approach works for them: beeline to IndAuto and start crawlering lots of minerals. Planned+Demo+Creche+GA overcomes that -1 growth and pop booms your bases. It also gives you an industry boost and the efficiency negative doesn't hurt Aki that much. Once the bases are up where you want them, go back to FM or Green and set psych at 10% or 20% against drones.

If neighbor Zak declares vendetta against you, don't go for peace so quickly. He's agressive and usually not as prepared for it as he thinks. Probe him for tech you don't have, steal his money and intruding units. Even if it means delaying your attempts to crush Miriam, it should be time well spent - he's way more trouble when he gets going. Beat him until he's a submissive and you're set. THEN go get Miriam.

And don't worry. Being a little behind in the powercharts at that phase of the game isn't the end of the world. Creating probing will get you right back int the mix. Foil probes across the water will siphon your enemies and make you strong. When you hit Transcend level, it will not be at all uncommon to lag behind one or two AI factions, and to miss some SP's. Be patient, and wait for them to stall. Choose your tech beelines wisely (which the AI usually will not do). IndAuto. Lift restrictions. Fusion (or Air). MMI.

Happy SMAC'ing!

[D4everman]

I've never found the Cyborgs to be overpowered, but then I don't play as many games as I'd like.

The University, now, they're kind of over powered, but only if Zak (as a human player) gets enough time to himself at the start. Thats why in my latest round of games I've avoided choosing the UoP, which I used to play as all of the time. I got too comfortable with them and the game became too easy for me. (But its been awhile since I've played so maybe I should try 'em again. Before I was on librarian level...now I'm trying out Talent) As the university I was almost constantly at war (especially in regular SMAC) with Yang and /or Miriam. Yang because of SE choices, Miriam because I wouldn't hand over tech.

So I started a new game last night as the Peacekeepers to see how I did. For awhile I was number #3 or #4, climbed to number #, but now I'm about Number #2 at the moment. I share a continent with Morgan who should really have a lot more bases than he does right now....and they should be terraformed better! (why doesn't the AI usually terraform to its advantage?) I control the monsoon jungle and because of the food bonus it was imperative that I built the virtual world. I also managed to snag the HGP and the Weather Paradigm. (The WP by the skin of my teeth...Dee almost got it.)

I also had to build the HSA, because Morgan is too close for comfort. We were pacted but he broke the pact. (too late for him...we still have a treaty, but while we had a pact I moved a colony pod through his territory and cut him off from the eastern side of our landmass.) Heres the wierd thing. Yang has been pestering me for tech for a long time, but I didn't know where he was located so his threats were ominous at best. (I didn't know which direction he may attack from.) then he calls me up and wants to trade some cheeseball tech for Doctrine: Air Power! (I mean he wanted to give me D:AP!) Of course I agreed. Then he demands Superstring Theory. I refused. Instanty he attacks a former with a missile needlejet. Ok, now I know he's fairly close. Morgan offers a map of the Hive for 50 credits and now I see...Yang is located right off of my southern coast! I rush built some Chaos Needlejets and a few chaos marines. Suffice it to say I own five of his bases right now including the Hive. Every turn Yang calls me and asks for a truce, but naaaaah.....too late. I won't settle for any less than total surrender. What confuses me though is this...why did Yang offer me D:AP for Adaptive Economics and then declare war? Didn't it occur to the Yang AI that I have better weapons and armor then it does, so giving me Air Power only lessens its chances of winning a war?

I expect that kind of nonsensical attack from Miriam, but I thought Yang would be a little more clever. (Miriam declared vendetta from the get go, but she's really too far away for me to be concerned. Besides she's pacted with Dee agains't the Drones. (Who are off of my northern coast). I don't have any problems with Domai right now, but I dodn't want to cross Dee at the moment. She's number one and has rattled her sabre at me a few times. I can't fight all of them at once and I expect Morgan to backstab me soon, Domai will probably start hating me when I won't give him advanced tech (I never trade weapons tech with factions unless I know I'm about to upgrade to something better), Zak just wants to be left alone (thus he'll be no help) and Miriam will attack as soon as she gets a chance.

I can barely wait to see what happens tonight.

D4

[Earwicker]

Originally posted by D4everman
I've never found the Cyborgs to be overpowered, but then I don't play as many games as I'd like.

Try 'em out. I think you'll like them. Same with the Pirates, who I also think you were frustrated with. Pirates in FM is a tough faction, since every undeveloped ocean square gives 1-1-1. A good way to get started.

Your current game sounds like you're doing all right. Even without neighbors, I always go for the HSA to prevent losing newly-captured bases to mind probes.

And Yang. Yang's a dope, seemingly convinced that his industrial might can intimidate anyone to buckle under. Still, knowing he's attack his nemesis Lal soon, I'd have thought he'd exploit his airpower advantage long enough to steal Adaptive Economics (what do you bet he doesn't even TRY to build the PEG?!). Go figure.

[Clear Skies]

The Cyborgs are my favourite faction, and I never seem to have any problems playing them. As long as you get the HSA you can comfortably run Knowledge without any probe trouble - in the early game, most AIs don't even HAVE probes, so you're all right.

The thing is, you need to expand early, and with the Cyborgs' low pop growth this isn't easy. However, in my current game, I founded my first base only a year after Domai founded the first base after Planetfall.
Expand and expand fast. Grab all the territory you can, and pump up your labs. Get the Empath Guild if at all possible and try to make yourself the only route of trade between the factions. I managed to position myself between Zak, Domai & Dee and, on the other side of me, Lal, Roze and Morgan. Tech swapping galore - I give out 1 tech to 6 people and get 6 techs in return!

Tech steamrollering is really the only way to play the Cyborgs. I met Dee early on and the dumb woman declared war. I met her Recon Rovers (laser-armed) with particle impactors and took all but two of her cities.
That's the way I play the Cyborgs. To keep on an even footing with the more powerful factions in the early game, annex the weaker factions using your superior weaponry and grab yourself an army of submissives - I forced both Dee and Morgan into submission. Dee gave me two techs of her own volition and I squeezed Morgan for all the creds he had, boosting me into the office of Planetary Governor at the second attempt.

After that, it was plain sailing. Given Roze's infiltration and Lal grabbing the Planetary Datalinks, I had some tech competitors, but the solution to that is to keep everything that others haven't already got to yourself. Selfish, I know, but it got me to Orbital Spaceflight a decent first.

[RedFred]

First, the obligatory plug for Vel's strat guide. Read it and you will be transformed to a Transcend level player. Correct use of crawlers and pop booms and you will no longer fear being overtaken on the might chart. Every game will be winable.

Second, a comment on the seeding. I play random maps and I often find myself right next to another faction or factions on regular-sized worlds. This is irritating. Very irritating. As bad as several other factions nearby can be, the alien sandwich is much worse. If you are having trouble keeping the peace in the early game, consider switching to the Pirates or the Cult. With the Pirates you can avoid early conflict with your sea bases anyhow, because it will take the AI a while to mount a credible sea threat. With the Cult, you can wipe out or subjugate your nearest neighbours early on without too much difficulty.

Finally a comment on overexploitation of the AI based on each faction's well-known tendancies. Try the options to randomize both the agendas and the personalities for a much more perplexing game diplomatically.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by D4everman
I can barely wait to see what happens tonight.

Now doesn't that say it all?

[D4everman]

Well, I said earlier I couldn't wait to see what happened in the next phase of my game....here it is...

Yang was a pushover! I couldn't believe how easy it was to take it his bases. Usually its an uphill battle with him, but I didn't even have to send reinforcements after I took the first few bases. I just pumped a few more troops out of his taken cities and rolled right over him. I love it when a plan comes together....especially when every turn he calls me up and threatens me. Yeah, I'm real scared, Mr. Chairman...I just took 8 of your bases in five turns. You're a real tiger....

Yang surrendered when he got down to two bases. He gave me Orbital Spaceflight and became my submissive. Meanwhile that damn Zak began building the Cloudbase Academy and the Cyborg Factory AND the Theory to Everything! I had to stop that as I at least wanted the CF and the CBA for myself. But I didn't want to go to war with Zak....so I sent a probe team over to his territory. Looking in his base building the CBA I saw he was within 2 turns of completion. Damn! I took a chance....I sent the probe in and sabotaged the production successfully blaming Diedre! Whew! Now, the CF was within 17 or so turns of being done, but I couldn't complete for 21 turns. I partially paid for it making my time around 14 turns. From then on it was smooth sailing. Zak had a few mindworm attacks and drone riots that played havoc with his production. But life wasn't easy for me. That skunk Morgan turned against me. Luckily I had placed a few spore launchers and mindworms on his borders, and my first choas copter rolled off the assembly line. I had to make really fast work of Morgan though. Miriam was pounding my sea formers and sea bases and Deidre, though we had a truce, was sailing around my territory in a cruiser and making flybys in needlejets. Morgan went down fast, he wouldn't surrender and I was sick of seeing his face.

All this time I knew that global warming was going on. (The message blamed the Drones) I had started pressure domes in mosrt of my coastal bases as soon as I found out about the problem. Miriam didn't. She lost several bases and so did Domai...and it was still happening, but the ability to launch the solar shade wasn't available yet. I built the Cloning Vats and then Zak asked me for a pact against Diedre. I agreed since I knew it was coming to that sooner or later. Unfortunately Domai sided with Diedre against me! (Domai? Don't he and Dee have conflicting agendas?) So as the night drew to a close, I have water rising, and a war with Miriam, Domai and Dee. Domai is too close for comfort and his deal with Diedre gives her a place to land her jets. I tried to frame her with him, but failed. So I've concentrated on bombing the Drone's improvements to slow them up a bit. I think my best bet is to fight defensively and build up my science, hopefully getting the space elevator. Then I can drop in on Dee and Miriam with a few drop tanks and end this war before it becomes untenable. Oh, and smash Domai for being a backstabbing jerk.

Any suggestions?

D4

[Earwicker]

Fourteen turns is too long to spend on construction of important SP's like the CF, ToE, or CBA. Switch production of nearby bases to crawlers to rush the production. Save your money for upgrades, rush-builds, and subverting invading units.

Good use of probes and framing your enemies. A defensive stance can be effective, as the AI sends ships of troops to their doom or stacks jets for your killing. Watch out for the "bases full of missiles" tactic and attack there. Establish or capture a foothold base in Drone territory and let the attacks center there rather than on your core bases. The HSA will help in that regard. Bring in some chaos choppers, AAA troops (build basic 1-1-1 drop units -- drop them in and convert to a tough defender) or interceptors, artillery, and probes.