Avoiding shield waste in production

Alexander's Horse · July 9, 2001, 19:29

When producing things, is there any simple way of telling from the number turns it will take to produce an item whether gold will be wasted on the last production turn? Do people have strats to deal with this, for example through rush building on the last turn before production?

It would be good when producing armies to calibrate your production so waste is minimised. For example it would be better to build a unit in a city where there would be minimum waste without the need for endless micro.

KrazyHorse · July 9, 2001, 20:06

Uh, I think you mean "...whether shields wil be wasted...".

The answer is yes. Ask to rushbuy the item in question. Divide the gold required by the proper factor (four for semi-built wonders&units, 2 for semi-built improvements, double if there are no shields in the production queue) and you get the number of shields left to go. Find the remainder when you divide this number by the production of the city. This remainder is the number of shields which will be wasted. The way to quickly build things without waste is to buy a lower-cost item of the same type, and then switch production back to the original item. Hopefully, the difference in shields can be completed in one turn with little waste. I think it took me about two hours after I bought Civ II to come up with that one.

Eyes_Of_Night · July 9, 2001, 22:01

uhhhhh....why don't you just mutliply the number of turns by the shield production and subtract the total amount of shields required? But if you feel a highly complicated equation is required then feel free to invent one Einstein.

Ming · July 9, 2001, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by EyesOfNight
uhhhhh....why don't you just mutliply the number of turns by the shield production and subtract the total amount of shields required? But if you feel a highly complicated equation is required then feel free to invent one Einstein.

Good point... ROTFLMAO...

You should listen to the master AH....

Sirotnikov · July 9, 2001, 22:54

check your PMs now please, it's urgent....

thanks

I promise to edit it later and enter something relevant to the discossion

Alexander's Horse · July 9, 2001, 23:29

Wasted shield production could be a decisive issue in a MP game - but I guess I'll just keep getting flamed for raising it.

Smash · July 10, 2001, 00:58

Well thats basically it.Math.
Lets say you are producing 7 sheilds and you are building a caravan.After 4 turns you will have 28 of sheilds leaving 22.Now you buy a diplomat taking it to 30 leaving 20.3x7=21.You have just saved 1 turn.Buy the dip after 3 turns and you save 2 turns.
Now lets say you are producing 8 sheilds.In 3 turns you have 24 leaving 26.Once again buy the diplomat to save a turn.
Or 15 sheilds.Buy the phalanx or whatever taking it to 20 and 2x15=30 saving a turn.

Is that kinda what you mean?

Alexander's Horse · July 10, 2001, 01:24

Yeah I use inc buying - I was just interested in people's strats for reducing shield waste and setting production efficiently for units, that's all.

Smash · July 10, 2001, 01:56

Well obviously your government and terrain has a great effect on this.

on 1x I first aim for 5 sheilds.Then finish warrior,switch to phalanx,finish phalanx etc.5 sheild increments are 11 gold per and save 1 turn each.
Next is 7,8 then 10.15 is next followed by 20.Ideally I get to 25 per.Thats enough until much later.2x this is fairly easy to acheive in relatively tiny cities.Any more and pollution becomes a possible problem depending on tech level.

DaveV · July 10, 2001, 07:46

AH - the other trick is to move your workers to produce exactly the number of shields required. Say you have 36 shields in the box toward a settler and are producing 6. You can move a worker from forest to ocean to reduce your shields production by 2 and increase your arrow production by 2.

La Fayette · July 10, 2001, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by EyesOfNight
feel free to invent one Einstein.

Why are you always so aggressive EON?
Did your mother beat you when you were a young boy or what?
I am sure you are a clever and experienced player. Why not show us? Why not play a game against Dave? Why not have a try at some of the scenarios we are now playing (such as ww2 with a minor civ, or Rome, or Alexandre,...)?

Eyes_Of_Night · July 10, 2001, 12:57

Well I decided to come up with a nice equation for this incredibly complicated problem.

F(S)=([(S*P)^4-80/4000E^(-4)]+[(WAHA*CE)(e^x)])/[X ln 14.4^(KX)]

Where S is shield production, P over all production, WAHA is the width of AH's ass, CE is the circumference of the Earth, and X is the IQ of DaveV. In recent tests of this equation WAHA is usually a very high value while X is very low, even sometimes a negative.

"AH - the other trick is to move your workers to produce exactly the number of shields required. Say you have 36 shields in the box toward a settler and are producing 6. You can move a worker from forest to ocean to reduce your shields production by 2 and increase your arrow production by 2."

That's a pretty fancy trick you got there. Better write another strategy on it, looks pretty complicated and I doubt it's ever been used before.

KrazyHorse · July 10, 2001, 13:18

Uh...if you hadn't noticed, the second part is exactly the same thing that you said. The first part is there because I find it easier to divide a gold price by four than to count shields.

Blaupanzer · July 12, 2001, 13:41

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveV
AH - the other trick is to move your workers to produce exactly the number of shields required. Say you have 36 shields in the box toward a settler and are producing 6. You can move a worker from forest to ocean to reduce your shields production by 2 and increase your arrow production by 2.

AH, this is the answer you seek. Most of us use it, if we're being intense about micromanagement. Getting to a smaller remainder (=waste) with incremental buys is even more intense. If you're playing SP, you can easily take the attitude, "What's a few shields among friends?" If playing MP, micromanage like crazy with these techniques. Xin Yu discussed the benefits of switching workers back and forth in his size 5 strategy. The theory applies even when not "size fiving." As to EON, flame wars are a waste of time, so ignore him.

Alexander's Horse · July 13, 2001, 07:39

Actually these little things count. I just got beaten by Markusf, mainly because he got a big lead in science - but when I looked back at the saves I could have easily improved my science rate from 8 turns to 3! Just by using my workers better.

Lazy Horse

Rasputin · July 14, 2001, 07:00

this is why i hate civ at times, too much maths involved, i love maths dont get me wrong, just not when i playing, i play civ 2 to unwind and not have to think of serious stuff like this... but at least i know now why some people win so much, they obviously work out all these little formulas and do incremental rush buying (still a cheat in my books)

Hydey · July 14, 2001, 21:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
incremental rush buying (still a cheat in my books)

In an MP game, if others are doing it you will fall behind Razzie.

So just do it

Rasputin · July 15, 2001, 12:50

dont know how it is done hydey and it probably expalins why some people take so long on their turns ... i think i might be voting for a timer in everry game...

Ming · July 15, 2001, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
dont know how it is done hydey and it probably expalins why some people take so long on their turns ... i think i might be voting for a timer in everry game...

Most people do their rush buying between turns

Smash · July 15, 2001, 18:03

It only takes a few seconds between turns.No major science here.Just point and click.

..and its not cheating.Its playing

Rasputin · July 16, 2001, 06:20

well as the manual doesnt tell you how to do this it must be cheating,, Rush buying is explained in manual , not incremental buying... and it doesnt take seconds, it takes minutes.. you have to do this for all your citys i would guess.

I know everyone does it but i jsut dont have the time, i find that between turns i busy doing simple micromanagment with out finding the time to work out which units to rush but then change to another to save shields and gold,, more power to you for convincing all you play with that this is ok, but juast because it is excepted by most players doesnt make it right, i hope that civ 3 elimiated the ability to change your production

Hasdrubal · July 16, 2001, 07:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
this is why i hate civ at times, too much maths involved

Come on, Raz, it's not that difficult at all! Just do it a lot, you'll discover that it soon becomes a second nature. If your city is producing 9 shields a turn, and you need 30 shields to finish production, a single replacement of one worker to get that extra shield a turn isn't really that much work. There's no need to have a calculator next to your computer. It is just rationalizing your production, not cheating.

So just do it

Rasputin · July 16, 2001, 11:36

this is not the actions i was refering to,, not the micromanagemnt side of thiongs, i dont have a problem with that, i have a problem with the incremental rush buying !!!!!

Edward · July 16, 2001, 19:12

Rasputin,

Such micromanagement (checking worked squares in every city) is too much for me in the later game years. I too find such micromanagement distracting. (Also I only play single player so I'm not at too much of a disadvantage for not micromanaging to that detail).

Like you, I avoided incremental buying for a long time because it looked complicated. As Smash notes, it's surprisingly easy once you try it. You don't have to go to every city. Just whenever you would normally rush-buy a unit, instead rush-buy the cheapest unit. Now rush-buy the next cheapest unit. Now rush buy the next cheapest unit, etc. until you buy what you wanted. No math at all! Barely any thinking. After half a game it becomes instinctive. Very easy, very powerful.

(Yes, you needn't start with the cheapest unit - just the cheapest unit which costs more than you have shields for. I'm just trying to show how easy it is. Also you needn't incrementally buy city improvements or wonders since their cost per shield is constant so there's nothing to be gained. You might use the same principle to "half buy" improvements and the like, but I wouldn't call that incremental buying.)

This being said, I'll agree with you that incremental buying is a cheat. Not because it's not in the manual, but because it was clearly not intended by the creators. Civ2 makes it more expensive per shield to rush-buy many rows of military unit shields. The more unit shields you buy all at once, the more they cost per shield. By rush-buying cheaper units you trick the computer into thinking you're only buying a few shields, so the cost per shield is small. This way you always (unless some units aren't available) pay the cheapest rate per shield. Why would the creators impose a higher cost per unit shield to rush-buy many of them, and then offer a convoluted tiresome process wherein you don't have to pay the increased cost? Did they say "Players love meaningless dull micromanagement. Let's introduce some by creating a rule that you need to circumvent by hitting the change and buy button a bunch of times. Boy, I hope it's obvious that you're supposed to pretend to buy a bunch of things you don't really want by manually changing your city build orders many times in a given turn. It be a shame if someone thought you were supposed to just hit the buy button to buy something!" Like you, I hope they close this loophole in Civ3. ('Though please still let us change our production! I often legitimately change my mind halfway through my turn. Perhaps unit shield price should be based on the number of shields that were in the box at the beginning of the turn, not the number of shields that happen to be in the box right now. Better yet, just make it always cost 5 coins per unit shield!)

I guess if I played multiplayer, I'd be forced to use incremental buying (and rehoming, and temporarily pumping up arrow production before delivering caravans, etc.); but as a single player I can dismiss my laziness as "being honest". Now I think my real reason for avoiding incremental buying is to increase the difficulty while playing the AI.

Scouse Gits · July 16, 2001, 19:53

Edward - You make a good case for playing an "honest" game. However, your statement that -

"This being said, I'll agree with you that incremental buying is a cheat. Not because it's not in the manual, but because it was clearly not intended by the creators."

If you are being honest ... how do you know that? Or have I missed a vital point ....?

------------------

SG(2)

Deity Dude · July 16, 2001, 21:05

I think its pretty clear that the makers didnt intend for incremental rush buying, although since i cant read minds i cant state it as a fact. I believe if they wanted that they would have set the price equal to the rush buy price when u hit the buy button. Having said that, nothing is a cheat that the players of the game agree upon before the game. Its only a rule.

Smash · July 16, 2001, 21:21

Well I'm not so sure.I think it was meant as a finer point or undocumented feature to be used mainly against deity level.As noted it doesn't work for improvements.You can save turns but not gold.Why?
Not being able to change would be disastrous.How do you respond to surprise invasions?By finishing a bunch of caravans?No.You switch to something with punch.Playing with a "potential army" is common.

Scouse Gits · July 16, 2001, 22:10

I think there is a fine line between cheating and using the game's aspects to your advantage.

Incremental buying is only manipulating the order of the required purchase in a given set of circumstances. If that is a cheat - is forcing a city to celebrate in Monarchy dubious by manipulating the workers around the city tiles? (First you put all the workers out to sea and gain arrows at the expese of food/production to celebrate. After gaining the double arrows you place some of the workers back on food/production squares but manage to sustain the double trade benefits)

Is that cheating or good play? I don't know because Sid has never appeared in a vision to tell me what he intended.

-------------

SG(2)

Eyes_Of_Night · July 16, 2001, 23:34

YOu guys are trying to come up with complicated ideas as usual when really it's very simple. It's nothing more than a flaw in the equation they use for buying something. I don't remember the exact equation, but if you go back and look at it you'll understand why it is that buying 1 row four times is cheaper than buying 4 rows one time. This game is 6 years old, it was never intended to be taken to this level of playing. They took what was a very laid back AI based game and threw it to the hardships of multiplaying. Lets face it, the game was never truly play tested fully and it shows. So stop whinning and play with what is there. Civ3 is going to have the exact same problem because they're not using players to play test the game, they're using programmers. I guarantee there are going to be all kinds of nice little bugs that will probably never be fixed. Deal with it.

markusf · July 17, 2001, 00:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Actually these little things count. I just got beaten by Markusf, mainly because he got a big lead in science - but when I looked back at the saves I could have easily improved my science rate from 8 turns to 3! Just by using my workers better.

Lazy Horse

You got beat because you tried to build up all your cities at once. I built up 4 or 5 cities and the other 20 are just size 2-4. My 5 cities produced 9 times the combined science and taxes of your whole civ. My turns always take less then 20 seconds for the majority of the game, because all you really need is a few cities and the rest are cannon fodder or bases to launch wars. I usually buy a whole army in 2 or 3 turns. In our game i bought 15 iron clads in one turn... it was over then because my gold production was 10 times yours.