World War AC

[big_canuk]

Hi all:

Haven't played single player in a long time, but I thought I'd give this a try to try out some of the new strats and tricks flying around. I'm using stockpile in queue, and will use upgraded crawlers. Haven't yet.

My strat looks very similar to Vel's, except, hoping I would get the EG, I went for the PEG, after Cent Empathy (I got the idea from Vel's 1st post, and the Idea that I could trade for restriction lifting techs. Its now 2134, and I just built the EG, and traded like crazy, and gave most techs to all my allies. I still have only 3 scouts. I will build probes now, I think.

I only got Gene Splicing on the restriction lifting beeline, but hopefully will get the EE's from pactmates soon.

I did some detailed reporting, but am giving that up now. I will just do the 10 year thing from now on.

Sounds like, from Vel's experience, I may be a little late, with my military, though I do have about 10 10+ min bases.

I'm thinking on a run for the VW, and the PEG simultaneously, with a switch to planned to build them. But that will further delay my military. Hmmm.... might have to go back to here if that doesn't work.

Here is the game log:

2101
to 50/0/50
move worker to forested nut sq
explore SW along river
former to 17,36 (road to next base site)
change to a CP
rps/turn 10.8

2102
former makes road
scout and cp toward enery special
Note: very beneficial for Uop to get 4 energy with base plus 1 worker: at 40/60 or 30/10/60 makes 3:1 split for 5 rps (nn +50% rounded *up*)
to 40/0/60 for breakthrough in 1
rps/turn 12

2103 tech ind base, choose Ind econ
scout to 97,21 (didn't make it)
CP to energy bonus square
rps/turn 12

2104 New CP to 104,20 (made it)
build base on 96,18 (energy bonus) Monitoring Station
rearange workers
former to 102,20
labs to 30/0/70 for breakthrough in 1
rps/turn 15.6

2105
tech ind econ, choose plan net
switch to FM and 40/0/60
scout inv monolith at 98,24
former road
CP to 102,22
switch to 50/0/50
rps/turn 16.8
next turn Univ Base will be 10.8 to get tech at 25rps

2106
scout to 101,25
base at 102,22 (thought about moving this puppy further along, but...) Otkreitia Discovery
former to 100,24
hurry formers at mon station (8 ec)(1 ec left)
17 rp/turn tech in 1 (25rps for tech)

2107
3 SPs started (all HGP) [added edit: by others of course]
tech - plan networks, take IA
formers built at Mon Station, switch to CP
former to 99,25 and build road
scout to 104,28
se to 40/0/60
cost = 54!, tech in 2 (25 rps/turn)

2108
Miriam starts the WP
Forest on 94.18
scout west
OD builds former, continue another
new former to 101,25
hurry CP at Univ Base (16 ecs, 3 left)
tech cost 54, accum 37, per turn 25.4

2109
UBase builds CP switch to crawler
tech IA take Biogen
can't switch to wealth, not enough ecs, drat!
Hive gets SotHB, drat
switch all bases to crawlers (eye to switching to wealth in 3 turns, so no mins will be lost producing anything prior to wealth)
scout to top of river, 101,29 (discover borehole)
former to 99,27 (another borehole, must be cluster)
tch cost 86, accum 6, per turn 25.2

2110
scout to 100,32
CP to 99,25
oops, scout out of territory so both UBase will drone riot. Let it cause labs more important than production
tech cost 86, accum 31, per turn 25.2
CP 1 active
Formers 3 active
scout 1 active
crawlers 3 in prod

4 pop
6 tech

10 score

2111
kopernick observ built on 97,23 Nut bonus and river, switch to crawler
scout to 97 31, back in territory
stop recording individual moves
Yes, biogen in 1
tech cost, 86, accum 57 t/t 31.2!!

2112
tech biogen, take soc psych
switch to wealth
switch to 50/0/50
same tech/turn 3 more ecs!
tech cost 128, accum 0, t/t 36

2113
hurry crawlers at OD, and MS
t c/a/t 128/36/36

2114
UBase, crawler, to CP
MS crawler to CP
OD crawler to Former
hurry crawler at KO, 19ec

2115
t c/a/t 128/108/36

2116
social psych, take SotHB
hurry former at OD 2ec
hurry CP at MS, 8 ec
t c/a/t 168/13/36 only 11 short of 4 years

2117
CP at UBase, switch to crawler
MS builds CP, switch to crawler
OD former switch to crawler

2118
hurry CP at KO, 16 ec
t c/a/t 168/85/34.8

2119
KO builds CP, continue CP
t c/a/t 168/118/33.6

2120
OD builds crawler, continue crawler
Budushii Dvor founded at 99,27
t c/a/t 168/152/30.6
+16ec/yr
CPs 2 active 1 prod
formers 4 active
scout 1 active
crawlers 5 active 4 prod
5 bases, 6 pop

6 pop
8 techs

14 score

2121
SotHB, Cent Eco, not offered, took Eth Calc
killed first MW, 80% damaged, whew
climactic research founded at 96,30
hurry crawlers at UB and MS
t c/a/t 221/19/48 only 10 short of 4 yrs

2122
UB builds crawler continue crawler
MS builds crawler switch to former
hurry CP at KO
build Mendelev College at 94,26 leave at scout because of below
Run into another worm, so back up and set to L
t c/a/t 221/68/55.2 tech in 3!

start reporting only highlights

2124
build Gagaril Memorial on 100, 32

2125
eth calc take Cent Emp
switch to demo

2127
t c/a/t 270/132/62.4

2130
cent emp, take prog psych
t c/a/t 321/48/70.8
+32 energy/year no extra facilities
CP 1 active
formers 11 active, 4 in prod
scouts 3 active, 2 lost
crawlers, 16 active 5 in prod
9 bases
15 pop
11 tech

26 score

2134
prog psych, take ad econ
build empath guild
trade for bunch of tech
give away most of rest
make 4 pacts
researching ad econ, 3 to go
t c/a/t 361/25/115.2
10 bases
30 votes, 20 pop(EG)
score:
pop 64
com 40
tec 15
sps 25
tot 144

just found another worm, and rather than attacking at 4:4, I set my scout on alert [shift]L. We'll see if it works. It sure worked great with my former in a base. It killed a 20% damaged worm, only getting 10% damaged itself. wow.


edited to add:

One of the reasons I have time to do this is because Googlie is on vacation in England/Scotland for a couple of weeks, slowing down a lot of my games (Thanks, G.).
When he gets back, his site would be a great one on which to hang these scenarios. He's always looking for traffic!

bc

[Tokamak]

Hey! Thanks for the report! Stuff like that might be useful. I haven't digested it yet (but I will!).

Let's consider this a dry run for Vel's qualitative comparison project.

[Avenoct]

Tokamak, thought I'd post here instead of email, just in case anyone else had the same problem. I can't get the (Brilliant-Nice-New and Improved) Smac version to load! The download was successful and I read the well written readme, but the file wasn't recognized by AC as either a scenario or a savegame (I tried changing the .se to .sav, etc.). Sorry for the bad news. However, I'm on a macintosh, and we all know that file conversions can be frisky at times, so don't mind this unless others also report the same.

-Smack (who's still interested if a fix should come about)

[Tokamak]

I just tested it on my system, and it failed to load there, too.

Wierd. I guess I must've somehow gotten the files crossed up. I'll fix it.

[Tokamak]

There... it should run just fine now. I tested it twice.

I don't know what went wrong, but at least it's fixed now.

Check your e-mail.

Cybergod: I sent you a fixed copy, as well.

Sorry for the screw up! Keep me posted if things still don't work.

[Avenoct]

Works like a charm! Glad I posted the error then and we caught it before more copies went out. Thanks again, I'm heading in mostly blind (trying to forget the above posts).



-Smack

[Tokamak]

Is your quote from 1984?

I hope so, 'cause I could really use 100 ec

[JustinSane]

After a couple more tests, I've come to the conclusion that yang is pretty much defenseless against a hard, fast worm rush from the cult. Much more critical than support from high weapon rovers are probe teams, or the newly captured bases mind-controlled. On an unrelated technical note, Miriam does not have the correct -1 planet rating in this scenario. I think native is clearly the way to go. One tactic that has been very effective in this scenario, and most other games where your attackers are mind worms, is the use of garrisons with the highest defense value you've got as cover for the worms. When attacking as the cult, instead of bee-lining for missles, I usually bee-line (after getting centauri empathy and neural grafting) for silksteel armor and comm jammers, to guard the worms.
I don't think that you intended for Yang to be so easy to take out with a rush, so I've got a couple suggestions for correcting that, if you release another patch, or for your official release. First would be moving the secondary hive base south, about as far south of the headquarter base as it currently is north. Second would be giving a clean, high morale trance defender in the headquarter base, The Hive. That base is just too vulnerable, considering how critical it is to the success of the coalition. It's almost always got one and often two secret projects in it by the time it falls, in addition to rendering all remaining hive bases on the continent useless for economy and research due to murderous innefficiency. This last problem could be partially corrected by a sea base in between the gaians and hive with another headquarters, so that if The Hive falls, the remaining bases are still productive. Removing all fungus in Yang's territory would also slow the attack down. I'd also consider removing the monolith by the hive, or moving it to the side closer to the ocean than the player. It's an important outpost for the attacker. Anyway, it's still a great scenario, and even after disposing of yang, it's still tough for the Cult to finish and win, since Miriam is pretty fierce about using rovers to counterattack mindworms before they get close enough. The Cult are also weak at research. Hope this helps to balance everything

[Tokamak]

JustinSane: Thanks! That's good to know.

I didn't really plan the player going native. The default player faction is the University, which really needs Free Market to capitalize on its strengths.

Trance garrisons are a good call. As on "overkill" solution, I think it's possbile to give all of a faction's units Trance as a freebie.

This news bothers me, since my 1/2 complete map features a vast fungal forest that helps define the borders. A native faction might just have too good a time. I'd been thinking about making the enemy HQs start out further, but doing that on my new map will mean that I'll basically have to start over

BTW, just how many worms did you have?! In my simulations, Yang usually has 10 -12 bases by the early 2140s, all sizes 5-7. You must've slapped together a truly horrific force to overrun all of that!

I'm not sure if this is an inherent flaw in the basic scenario, or just an isolated situation restricted only to the Cult. Can the University pull off the same trick?

[The Commodore]

Here! Me!

I rover rush the Hive, and got lucky. Had him off by 2150.

Most idiotic thing is, I lost...silly me, I forgot that Miriam was probe-happy here...she probed away my best bases.

It helped that I got the Borehole Nexus first. Well, to be honest, it was the monoliths around the Nexus that helped so much. UoP always does have the potential to be a great rusher, with its mighty research.

If only I had looked at Miriam...

[JustinSane]

I suppose going with the Planet Cult did create an entirely different scenario than was intended. I don't think giving all enemy units trance would really be justified though... perhaps a couple free trance defenders would be sufficient? Unless the fungus forest leads to coalition bases, I'd not be too concerned that it would imbalance the native factions. Even if they can successfully damage one coalition member with a rush, they are still left with a faction aproximatly half as good at research as the university. (-1 econ means no free market, and no free net nodes or +2 research either) And to reply to your question, my native force was actually surprisingly small. 1 spore launcher, 2 mindworms. However, by the end of the attack I had about 15 infantry, either 1-1-1 or laser infantry, and some probe teams (last 2 or 3 bases on the continent were mind controlled to save time. Green/fundamentalist rules ) Yang doesn't end up with 10-12 large bases if you take out his headquarters in the mid-20's. There was another base that fell before that as well; also a colony pod I believe. Since yang has roads between all his bases, and they are spaced 3 apart, it was a perfect situation for the worms to move into a base, heal, then take out the next one. Yang also never did get decent weapons, so counter-attack wasn't a threat. Seizing the command nexus really helped too. This first attack was slightly atypical though, as yang was quite late to get armor or probe teams, so scout patrols were feasible as suicide attackers, even with the perim defenses. Subsequent tries usually led to taking yang out around 2155, or ten years later.

[Tokamak]

Okay, against my better judgement, I took an hour off amd cruised the boards.

JustinSane and The Commodore: Thanks for testing the rush for me. Justin, thanks to you, I will studiously keep all monoliths away from the front from here on out. I'm a bit conflicted on how to handle the rush game. On one hand, the scenario was intended to present the player with a credible threat throughout the whole game, up to and beyond the HabDome era, allowing us to see situations almost never seen in traditional games. On the other hand, 'momentum' is a valid playstyle, and I don't want to arbitrarily make it impossible. The deal is, if a momentum player hasn't already decided the game in the first few decades, he has already lost the game. I think that, while I personally enjoy the game more when taking a slower, 'builder' approach, it is poor game design to try and force this playstyle on others. A good scenario should allow some tactical vermilsitude.

Giving the Coailtion bases a Trance (and maybe an ECM) garrison at the start is a good compromise. However, I found that it isn't as easy as just pressing shift-F1. Soemone needs to have the relevent techs before I can design a unit, which is neccessary to make the editor able to create the unit in question. I can't just give a faction a tech, and then take it away when I'm done, because tech costs are based on techs -learned-, not possessed. This would unfairly hamper whichever faction I gave the tech too. Even worse, Trance requires Secrets of the Human Brain. Giving this to someone sets off the 'secret discovered' flag, meaning that it won't properly give a free tech to its discoverer any more.

There is, however, a solution. I figured out how to alter the preset units in alpha.txt, and can now confidently create -any- unit I want, including 'impossible' combinations (ever seen an infantry based carrier with fungicidal tanks, grav struts, artillery, SAM, ECM, a deep-pressure hull, and X-gas before? Well, I have. It looked pretty @#$%ed-up!)

I figure maybe one ECM and one Trance unit might be enough to compensate for AI lameness. I'll set them in lurker mode so they don't wander off.

People interested in the 'how to's' of super-units are encouraged to go here , where I've posted my findings. Vel and Smack, if you are reading this, go there! Some of this stuff relates directly to your mods!


-edit- oh, yeah. Lordwraith, I got your e-mail. Smack has dsicovered a few minor bugs in the Classic version of SMAC Down, which I would like to fix before sending it out to you. You'll get it sometime tonight, I promise.

[Tokamak]

Using my new found knowledge of alpha.txt editing, I am very seriously considering giving all AI units inherent clean and police abilities. This will address a horde of inssues with AI incompetence.

By 'seriously considering,' I mean that I will definately add this into the next mod unless someone talks me out of it.

Also, I'm thinking that I'll encourage the Coalition to start using nerve-gas, once it becomes available. I think I know a way to do this.

[johndmuller]

Tokamak, Great Scenario

Its wonderful to see the AI doing more than respectably well. I guess I haven't played Zak in a while; I'm not used to getting so many techs so early, or did you juice it up somehow beyond the 60/40 allocation split?

I'm in my second transcend game - in the first, I wasted one base producing an SP and was apparently a bit overconfident on the offense and then found myself getting waxed by Yang's rovers and a bit put upon by Miriam as well (looked like I was going to lose, although I might have held on; perhaps I'll pick it up again if I want a lost cause challenge). This game I worried about defense a lot more (and tried to make sure I had enough probes); I don't have many bases, but I've managed to take out 4 or 5 Yang rover rushes and approach parity on the military tech side at least. I'm hugely behind on the power chart, but I managed to steal Fusion from Yang and finally made contact with the friendlies and got some tech and $$ to work with, maybe I can turn the corner. Definitely a welcome change from the usual AI play.

You sure seem to know a lot about fiddling with the .txt files; I hope you have the time and inclination to share your expertise with the group in a treatise of some sort; it will be greatly appreciated. If you want a challenge, perhaps you can figure out a way to seed a random map with all the terraforming advantages you give the non-human players.

I'm not saying that your balance is out of whack, just curious as to why the good guys don't do as well as the bad guys while getting seemingly at least as much good terraforming headstart. (I was surprised to see how much, from reading your early posts I wasn't expecting wall to wall boreholes when I finally saw my partner's land - but the bad guys still were way ahead - is it all tech and military?).

Is there a way to keep the SMAC characters when loaded from a saved game - when I went back to continue my game, all the representations had changed to the SMAX characters - the text was still SMAC names but the unit colors and everyone's pictures looked were from Xfire (I think I had become Sven), it makes elections and other conversations a bit confusing. This is only a minor issue in such a fine work.

Thanks again

[Tokamak]

The insomniac creator speaks:

The speed of the intial techs is due to the fact that you are starting with a level three base on excellent land. In particular, the energy/river/forest tile will shave a full turn off of the first few techs, all by itself.

Thanks for the kind remarks, and for the report. I get a real thrill out of people telling me of their experiences while playing my scenario.if you are interested in text file stuff, swing by the Creation threds. In particular, look at the "Basic unit types...," "Adding NEW terraforming...," and "monkey sweats...," threads. I may very well begin writing a Mod-Maker's Manual after I finish the new map, although to be honest, I am not the most knowledgable one on this topic.

I would love to have random maps with ample pre-terraforming, but I don't think this is possible

The bad guys do so much better than the Allies because 1) they start out pre-pacted, and 2) they have twice as many bases than the Allies. Yang, Miriam and Santaigo have nearly identical empires on the other side of the world, coplete with a second HQ.

I kinda went overboard on the boreholes. If you read the readme, you know that I wasn't too pleased with the clumsy look that it gave the map. I'm trying a more 'natural' approach on the sequel. we'll see if it works.

The image switching thing is a general problem with SMACX. It always fixes itself when I quit and restart.

With the woefully small amount of sleep I've been getting, I'll probably be done with the sequel in a few days (but don't quote me on that). Any ideas for the name? I was thinking of something basic, like SMAC Down: 2200, and then having the 'patched' versions increment the year by one each (ie the first bug fix would be SMAC Down: 2201). Naturally, the starting year of the game would be altered to match the name each time.

[Tokamak]

As long as I'm here...

I think I'll place lurking units along the rivers and roads of the Coalition empire. This is it compensate for the fact that the AI doesn't use crawlers to ZOC the approaches like a human would. This should slow down an early rush just enough to keep it from becoming a sure thing. These custom units will be named Justin'sBane and The Commodorecker in honor of the two who pioneered the rush strategy against the Coalition

[Velociryx]

Latest reports:

Made two attempts over the weekend, both ended in failure.

The first, was my attempt to make straight for the Planetary Datalinks and keep pace that way. No dice. Yang started on it while I was still three techs from being able to. Probing him to try to get the needed techs got me everything but what I needed, so I missed that.

From there, I shifted toward restriction lifting, and then to choppers. Had much more success holding the line this time. None of my bases fell to Yang/Miriam during this period, but now and then it was a near thing. (Actually wound up making extensive use of artillery, too!).

Got choppers in ’69, upgraded him in ’70, and ’71 was (I thought) a pivotal year. My lone chopper made for the base under heaviest fire and utterly routed the 16 units—including a number of probes in the combined Miriam/Yang base-busting party. One turn slower, and the base surely would have been overrun, so we truly had something to crow about.

From there, it was significantly harder. No more probing for tech, thanks to the constant AI patrols with needle jets, and although I could hold the line, I could not afford to do that AND launch an attack toward Yang’s bases.

Then the baddies got Fusion and it got MUCH harder to even hold the line, but I was working with it….we were losing choppers now, but I was still dealing with it, but we weren’t getting anywhere, and I watched more or less helplessly as Lal was absorbed by an ever-more-powerful Miriam. The total anihilation of Lal at her hands took 12 turns from start to finish.

Two turns after Lal fell to the Believers, Santiago (who was losing her war with Dee) lobbed three PB’s at her. While that didn’t kill her, it did deprive her of her five best bases, which pretty much took her out of the fight.

Shortly after that, Santiago hit me with….ready for this….thirty-two missiles all in the same turn, and at every base I had, except the ones currently being attacked by her allies. All my defenders were killed, along with all their probe support. That same turn, I got the message that due to extensive ecological damage, sea levels would be rising over the next 20 years, which endangered my capitol.

That was pretty much game.

Second attempt didn’t last very long…I decided to use the rush strategy in an effort to snag Hivean bases early.

Despite the fact that the math was very much on my side (didn’t we JUST have a thread about this?!), my X-Impact rovers got THRASHED by Hivean 2-2-1’s! My attack force consisted of five attack rovers (built on the cheap and upgraded en route), two of which got lost taking the base, with the remaining getting taken out the following turn, when eleven Hive rovers counter attacked. I got all but two, but….

So that game pretty much ended there.

I’ll prolly try the rush again, mostly because in THEORY the battles should have been much easier than they were, and that seems the most workable approach.

-=Vel=-
(back to the drawing board!)

[Tokamak]

Very interesting!

Lal is apparently the weak link in the chain. Whether his inevitable demise makes this scenario more fun or not is a question that I still haven't answered.

The PlanetBuster thing sounds like it might be game-breaking, even for a game that's supposed to be hard. I'll either disable nukes, or alter the tree to give Orbital Defense Pods before nuclear weapons. Any thoughts on this?

I was surprised by the outcome of your rover rush. JustinSane and The Commodore have both reported phenomenal successes with rush tactics (ie capture of The Hive by 2120!). Was it bad luck? Or maybe the rushers hit earlier than you did?

While I'm at it, did you two (JustinSane and The Commodore) continue your games after that? If so, how did things go? Was it too easy afterwards, or is the challenge still viable?

[death_head]

Keep it so Lal always dies!

[The Commodore]

Did you nae listen lad? I said, I left my borders undefended by probes, and lost to your probe-loving Miriam!

I also think I was rather lucky...Yang didn't get Pulse or Plasma armor 'till I had taken all but one of those bases. Also, I got and kept the borehole cluster, which was my war factory, and, with all those Monoliths, upgrade center. Once again, this was at the price of ignoring my eastern borders.

[Tokamak]

Auch! I guess I nae dinnae, lad, 'cause ye clearly state in ye post that after yer attack...

All your base are belong to Miriam!

[JustinSane]

I found that the game was still pretty tough even after removing Yang from the continent, since I had to use the Cult to get a rapid conquest (even the gaians lack the punch needed, the +2 planet matters both in psi-attack and capturing enough worms fast enough). The cult are great at rushing when there is a lot of fungus, but not so great at research. I found the Believers to be a massive pain in the neck even without yang, since they tended to be a bit ahead in tech and build a ton of rovers, which are the best counter to worms imho, at least pre-airpower. There were also the endless probe teams to deal with, which ended up forcing me to fundamentalist. Miriam was also immune to any probe action (annoying). That said, eventually the worm production from the monsoon jungle bases got to be overwhelming, especially once I got the neural amplifier. (bee-lined for it as soon as I got centuari empathy) I quit that game after the war against miriam had clearly turned to my favor. It was still a lot tougher than the average trancend level game though. I also got a rover-rush to work with the cybernetics, but that was a lot tougher, and not a sure thing (2/3 at taking yang out, each time just barely, and I'm pretty sure miriam would have beaten me at after at least one of those. I quit after the success or failure of the rush in each case.) Also, just for the fun of it, I confirmed both that rushing with Marr is too easy and rover-rushing with Morgan is stupid
Just a slight correction, but the earliest I was able to take the base The Hive was mid-2120's, 2126 I believe. And that was indeed a fluke I've not been able to duplicate, 5-10 years later is more standard with the cult. I play cult about 90% of the time, so the worm rush is one of the few strategies I can execute reasonably efficiently And I'm tremendously honored to have an annoying enemy unit named after me! Thanks!

[Tokamak]

double post deleted

[Tokamak]

I just finished the map! Man, it feels great to have that over with. A big thank you goes out to Blake, whose very clean-looking map inspired me to scrap my old one and start over. His mod can be found here. Now, all I have to do is setup the factions and do some basic playtesting to see if all the parts work. I should have a playable version out by Friday, tops. Just in time for my birthday. Neat.

Hey, big_canuk, what do you mean when you said you put stockpile energy in the building queue? Is that some kind of trick, or do you just mean that you were stockpiling energy? The way you worded it, it sounded like it could be the former. I'm curious.

I'm considering some pretty serious changs to the basic rules. Choppers will almost certainly be reduced to a movement of 4 (remeber that better reactors improve this).

Orbital Defense Pods, and possibly Flechette stations, will be moved forward, so that the player has a reasonable of protecting himself from nukes. If PlanetBusters turn out to be too persistant a problem, I'll just turn them off.

Huge changes to the faction.txt's. All AI units will receive Clean Reactors and Non-lethal Methods for free. I'll probably also add 2 or 3 points to each of their Police ratings. The AI just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of Pacifist drones, so I'll elminate them as a factor. Santaigo will be given Sven's 'Aquatic, 0' power to make her naval focus more workable. I almost just switched her out with the Pirates, to do honest.

I'll fiddle with the alpha.text to make Hybrid Forests more appealing to the AI, and Pressure Domes less so. Maybe I can make it build more satellites, too.

I will take steps to improve the AI factions' 'clean mineral' threshold, making their carefully pre-planned terraforming less vulnerable to the computer's total ignorance of eco-damage.

Tech-stealing will be off. The poor AI can't defend its bases from probe teams to save its life. I stopped stealing tech from the computer a long time ago, because of this. Now I'm just making it official. I expect this one to be very unpopular with some people. If demand is high, I might make a 'tech-steal on' version as well.

Steps will be taken to insure that the Cloning Vats will fall into Coalition hands. The Cloudbase Academy and Planetary Datalinks will be gone.

When Vel's mod finally takes off, I might make a another SMAC Down scenario using his rules. The harsh environment proposed by Vel seems perfect for a game like this.

[JustinSane]

Are you sure it's possible to win this scenario? No tech steal, no datalinks, and I'm assuming spoils of war is off. How will any non-cybernetic faction even close to keep up in tech? And free clean reactors and police units!? You're kidding, right? Yang with an infinite army isn't anything close to balanced.. that's the point though I suppose... Sounds like fun I've already got an idea for a potentially feasible rush. For the record, you can count me among the unskilled players who will have a terrible time getting by without stealing technology Also, what about the Data Angels? They might be one of only two viable player factions, with the techshare 3 with infiltration faction ability. Is this considered ok?

[Tokamak]

I haven't playtested it yet, so none of the things mentioned above are final. Remember, you can share tech with your friends once you contact them, putting you pretty much on even footing with the enemy, tech-wise.

As for the monster AI advantages, well... remember that a human player can do lots of things that the AI can't. Think crawlers, defensive probe teams, choppers that don't crash every turn... The idea is that a skilled player will be able to keep up with the AI, but won't be able to totally dominate it, like he could in a normal scenario. I know that my approach is pretty heavy-handed, but that's what it takes to make the computer a viable threat to a skilled player.

The Data Angels would be really fun to play in this scenario. I don't know if the Sharetech power would be too much or not, though. This might be counter-balanced by the fact that your probes will be essentially useless against Miriam, a serious vulnerability.

Also, a Green strategy is perfectly viable in this game. It might be even too good if you're playing Dee or Cha. Dunno yet. I have a feeling that you're gonna test this one for me

I tried to set this map up so that there were a large number of possible strategies. Whether or not that will be true in practice is something that will be found out during playtesting.

[JustinSane]

You've made some excellent points, in light of which I'd have to agree with your design decisions. You're also right that I can't wait to try a green strategy in this scenario. Specifically, I plan to go for Doc. Flexibility asap and rush santiago with a combination of laser foils and IOD's. Should be a lot of fun to try I'd also like to thank you for making these scenarios, they've got to take a lot of time to produce. I've had a great time playing it so far, and look forward to the new version!

[Blake]

Clean reactors are not very usfull at all to AI yang and AI Miriam. Both of these factions have +4 support when running power, and in these mods tend to have massive bases, this combined means they can support 14 units per base(!!). It's no co-incidence that Yang is the strongest AI, he already has the equivilant of free clean reactors.

The factions you have to watch out for are the others - which will no longer be burdened by support costs and FM drones.

[mark13]

Hi all,

Decided to squeeze a quick couple of efforts at the original scenario. Here's what happened:

Inspired by the thread, I decided the EG was certainly the way to go. Set up early bases, threw tanks and crawlers out like a madman, and got in touch with my allies. Proceeded to trade a few techs - at one point was only one tech behind the evil alliance - and went for restrictions about 2145 or so.

That's when the Miriam wave came. Simply wasn't prepared for it - though my makeshift defensive front did remarkably well considering the circumstances. I'd just traded AdapDoc beforehand, and so prototyped 3p armor immediately, upgraded my scouts, and shifted a couple of probes in.

Unfortunately, the wall broke about four years into the offensive. Having had my probe garrison beaten the turn before, I was slow to put another one back in - she duly mind-controlld the base, along with the four 3p garrisons in it. Suffice to say, I quit after that....

In many ways, it was a shame - I had held considerable promise for my position up 'til then. But WOW - what power from the AI front! Never seen as competitive an AI in all my life....good job it's a huge map!

So, I fired up another go. Despite my fairly humiliating defeat, I decided the main strategy (to which I owe the board here) was sound. It's clear there's not a lot of room for error in this scenario, that's for sure!

My second attempt started in similar fashion to the first. This time, however, I made certain I was well defended on the Miriam front, whilst wary of any possible offensive from Yang (he'd thrown a couple of units my way in the original effort, but nothing too bad).

And it's a damn good job I was ready - in the year 2141, 6 (six) recon rovers came my way. As I say, I'd made most of the necessary preparations this time (3p defenders along with a scout, sensor, perimeter, road network etc.) so the attack wasn't crippling (I lost one garrison) - but it was certainly enough to wake me up. Meanwhile, all was quiet on the Miriam front - nothing had come my way.

It was clear from that point that this game had progressed very differently to the first - Yang had stolen the land directly to the south-east of mine, and so Miriam's expansion was hampered.

Meanwhile, my allies were doing a sterling job providing me with tech. We were only two techs behind by the time D:AP hit (I had D:AP before the alliance) but unfortunately didn't quite have the productivity I'd have liked to churn units out en masse. But, the tide of the war was certainly changing - the threat to my frontier bases at this stage was negligible and though the odd unit was slipping through the net, most of the fighting was taking place in the midfield.

Slowly, slowly, we were pinning them back toward their bases. In a freak slice of luck, I managed to steal P-SA and *Fusion* in successive probe actions - so I was able to build the Hunter-Seeker! A more massive SP it was not possible to get. After that followed MMI in 2173 (along with the Cloudbase) and, though I missed te Cyborg Factory to the Hive (dammit!) my army was growing in potency.

Satellites followed, which revealed the map - helped the cause massively, as I could finally plan my attacks. At this stage, most of the attention was focused on Yang - though the odd Miriam unit slipped through. I was finally in a position for a conquest of my own - and that's how it evolved. By this stage, my principal bases had been boomed well into double figures size-wise. First came the seizure of a couple of fringe bases in the early 70s, then we got to the meaty part - the Leader's Horde (I think) was taken in 2180.

The plan was set to go straight for the HQ on this side of the world, to render energy production of all these bases redundant. So that's what I did - although it had a few uits, it was surprisingly sparsely defended. We took that in 2182 - they relocated - we took the new HQ two years later. To add to our bounty was both the PEG and the CN - two pretty big SPs, given the circumstances.

Meanwhile, over in Miriam territory, things were also getting interesting. A couple of fringe bases were conquered as nothing more than an afterthought, as all of a sudden I realised I was within a stone's throw of their HQ! It didn't take long for my drop troops to get in there (amazingly, *no* Miriam bases had Aerospace Complexes?!) and we took the HQ in 2187 - practically halving their research capacity. Though I lost the base - and the three SPs that came with it (drat!) I'd gotten rid of their HQ in this hemisphere, which was what I wanted.

The Hive were eventually eradicated from the north in 2190 - thereby providing a *massive* boost to both my research capability and my industrial capacity. Also crucially nabbed the Vats in 2191 (hooray!) so all my bases - not to mention my economy - are booming.

And that's where I'm stood right now - leaving the game in an inherently winable position. Plans for the future? Well, obviously Miriam is going to be the biggest threat - she must be neutralised. Santiago isn't much of a problem - a couple of stray missiles, but nothing else. Come to think of it, I found a horde of at least 15 missiles in a coastal seabase - lucky my chopper was onhand

Still - the game holds great promise. Hopefully I'll be able to finish it off tomorrow - a full report of the play-out will hopefully come then. Whatever the outcome, my thanks to Tokamak for a fantastic scenario. Definitely five happy-smiley-faces out of five from this corner

[Tokamak]

Sounds like you're handling it better than most.

What SE choices did you use? Did you start off with Planned or Free Market? When did you turn on Democracy? Or did you? Etc. I'm not sure myself which approach is better, so I love hearing people's thoughts.

For those that care, I've finally finished all the picky detail work on the map. I've set up the AI bases and let them run wild (I didn't actually play). With a little tweaking here and there, I got all the AI factions to grow at a reasonable pace, and in the right directions.

Expect for Morgan, that is. That stupid SOB just won't expand his empire! Even with lush terrain, he doesn't figure it out. He chose to build his bases in the fungal morass, rather than the jungle that was right next door! Bleh! All the other factions managed to pop out 4-5 bases within 20 years. Morgan squeezed out two. No wonder Morgan Industries let their CEO go out into space!

One thing I'm hoping to do is to encourage the enemy to build their projects in the more distant bases. With a little more tweaking, I'm sure I can make it work.

I'll probably have a working scenario sometime tomorrow, and a non-X version by Friday. I'm going to post them both at the same time, so that I can have them attached to consecutive posts at the top of a new thread. If no serious gameplay issues are discovered, I guess I'll humbly present SMAC Down to Mark G., and see if he wants to add it to his download section.

Oof! It's been fun, but I'm ready for a break. It'll be nice to just sit back and actually play my creation. After all, originally I made this thing just to amuse myself.