Fortnight OCC - First Edition! - Results & Logs

[Scouse Gits]

I'd like to echo redbaron's comment here - the above was my first ever log, but I felt that the simple act of keeping it kept me more on the straight and narrow than my usual 'let's just wing it' style.

It is seriously hard adjusting to OCC from ICS (with SSC), but its great fun.

TTFN - think I'm going down with the flu - lots about in UK at the moment - so might not be online for a day or so. Keep those logs coming (except you shouldn't be reading this unless you have already posted)


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Sten Sture]

I will post my log here later, but I thought you all would find it amusing that barbs wiped out my first settler, and the wheat irrigation and the wine mine, and my replacement settler and my first trireme with my first caravan. I had to sell my library and disband two "none" defenders to get the Colossus before the damn Spaniards. Then my second trireme with my second caravan got sunk by barbs. Then I got mad and counter-attacked barbs that were set up to kill my third settler and left my city undefended, I lost the battle, lost my settler and lost my city. End of game around 400bc.

I think Grigor or SG[1] stole my mojo!
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited January 18, 2000).]

[SandMonkey]

Scouse -

Thanks for putting that list together, it really helps put things in perspective for myself.

I got collosus first, woo hoo! of course i also played on king so that has to be what did it.

Thanks again.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky eck ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[Caesar the Great]

Another observation

First of all we should eliminate Smash's second time and Sandmonkey's because they can't be compared fairly, for obvious reasons.

Date of First Trade Route
Smash 80 AD, Arrival - 1888
Crow 720 AD, Arrival - N/A
Paul 75 BC, Arrival - 1859
Grigor 1360 AD, Arrvial - N/A
Redbaron 150 BC, Arrival - 1893
Carlous 75 BC, Arrival - 1911
Caesar 160 AD, Arrival - 1891
Scouse 80 AD, 1911

This shows the importance of trade routes. But there are CLEARLY other factors.

___
CtG

[Grigor]

OK, so what seems to be fun is trying to find out which statistics correlate well with early AC arrival. The post from SG1 looks like a logical start, but the results are surprising. Of course this is a small sample, and I am no statistician, but the data did seem to stratify sort of ok. If we divide the competitors into two groups (1. arrived before 1900; 2. arrived after 1900 or didn't arrive), here is what I see:

Date of Shakespeare - before 1000 AD - gives excellent correlation
Turns to Copernicus - 10 or fewer turns - correlates well
Date of Copernicus - Before 350 AD - gives good correlation
Date of Colossus - by or before 1250 BC - correlates well with AC arrival date, despite the two early Colossi.

Date of Darwin - before 1750 AD - gives fair correlation
Turns to Newton - 35 or fewer turns - gives fair correlation

Date of Industrialization - before 1650 - gives no particular correlation
Turns to Shakespeare - 25 or fewer - no particular correlation
Turns from Industrialization to Space - 50 or fewer turns - one might have thought that this would be important, but it seems to have no particular correlation.
Date of Newton - before 1500 - gives no particular correlation

Turns to Darwin - 10 or fewer turns - gives no correlation at all. Paul took 13 and redbaron didn't build it at all.

Turns to build SS (Apollo to launch) - 1 or 2 is good, but does not seem so important since the worst was 8. It represents an area for technical improvement
Turns to build SS (Apollo to launch) - 25 - 30 is good, but this does not seem so important. Redbaron could also shave a hunk of time in this phase.

There must be different variables which are more important than these - perhaps something we are not yet keeping track of. The trade route date is a good start. Any other ideas??


------------------
--grigor

[Grigor]

To gloat in exultant ecstasy at delivery of just deserts to wantonly sadistic map creator! To contemplate extravagant and functionally unending party in honor of glorious circumstance! To feel microscopic loss of joy in realization that humiliating defeat by 400 bc means agony was perhaps insufficiently slow and prolonged.

------------------
--grigor

[crowatbitemedotcom]

Sten - sounds like a rough game.

SG1 - thanks for the comparisons. It seems as if I did okay in the early part of the game and then I just fell apart after about 500BC or so. Wish I had an explanation for this, my games usually don't go that poorly. Maybe I'll try a second game today and see how I stack up against Smash's second game.

Crow

Briefly:

3850 Athens
2250 Mon, Monarchy (same turn!)
2250 Pheasants converted to Buffalo
1650 Colossus
0650,25 Rep, Republic
0450 Mys (WLTPD -> size 7 next couple of turns)
0225 Phil + Astro
0075 Hides -> Trondheim 160 +5
0400 Colosseum
0440 Gems -> Trondheim 416 +7, WLTPD
0460 Hides -> NY 150 +7
0480 Silk -> Washington 432, Aquaduct & size 9 (timing!)
0520 Hides -> Washington 166 (hides was a repeated commodity)
0540 San
0560 Sewer & size 13 (food limit)
0600 Settler (to help with that food limit)
0620 University
0740 Bank
kept getting new commodities & building caravans (poor baby)
1080 Shakespeare, sell Colosseum, got message that Spanish were about to complete Copernicus
1100 Go broke buying Copernicus
1320,40 Dem, Democracy
1400 Gunpowder, go broke building Leonardo before the Americans
1720 Newton
1752 rebuild Sewer, WLTPD
1754 Rfg
1770 size 20 (food limit)
1788 Supermarket (Doh! knew I forgot something!)
1792 Go broke beating Spanish to Darwin -> Tac, Ref
1794 WLTPD
1804 Size 26
2 Engrs, Harbor
1830 Mass Transit
1832 Research Lab
Mob, Rob
1838 Superhwy; discovery every 2 turns with sci at 60%
Ato, NF, NP, Las, Rec, Fli bump sci up to 70-80%
Rad, Afl, Roc
Factory, Nuclear, Rec Ctr somewhere in there
Americans break off alliance, get uppity. Decide to build
1861 UN
SFl, Env, Pla, Sup
Mfg Plant somewhere in there
1871 Fus, crank up the taxes
1872 Solar Plant, sell Nuclear
sell Lab
sell Uni
Start Apollo, but too poor to rush buy
Americans go Fundies and attack, despite UN!!!! Destroy a stack of Freight, grrrr! Must waste all saved money bribing attackers.
Go back to building Freight and saving money.
1889 Apollo
1915 Launch
1917 Americans launch
1927 Americans arrive AC—or would have if they had built a 17-5-5 ship (suckers)!
1930 AC

[Aurelius]

(I'm a bit embarrassed to have such a sketchy log after looking at everyone's-Fun map and fun game.)

Aurelius Fortnight one result:

Well, I didn't think I was going beat AI or even get a 19th century AC date. But taking my time helped. Hope my early sci advances aren't too out of whack. After 1780, the log is more accurate. Motto: Science in two turns. Successful strategy: Avoid unit contact (thus diplomacy) after developing Automobile. Didn't feel lucky in the beginning, but then the Americans finally allied --that was fortunate. Maybe it was the Spanish attacking the Americans that facilitated the alliance. Vikings were never a problem. Here it is:

3900 Hut Archer
3700 Athens
3600 Hut Currency
3400 Hut Pottery
2900 Science Alpha
2200 Science Ceremonial B
1400 Science Code
1250 COLLOSUS
1150 Science Monarchy-seems terribly late-damn hut science.
1050 Est. Monarchy
900 Science Writing
750 Science Trade
625 Science Map
475 Science Masonry
Just saw a tireme off the Bay…want to bribe it.
Mistake. Blew itself up just before dip…american by flag
250 Science Construction
150 Hut 50gp
75 Literacy

……………..
1 AD Hut Barbarian
-- Republic (2 yrs before established.)
60 Est. Republic
80 Vikings-gave them Republic-peace.
180 Science Mysticism
220 Science Philosophy and Mathematics.
220 Hut Seafaring
240 Hut Barbarian
340 Science Astronomy
Tributed away philosophy and gifted Trade
520 COPERNICUS
720
760 Too much happened this year. Met Americans and gave them some science …about 5 turns later, they demand more science even after a gift….war. Ungrateful serpent's tooth!

760 Science University
800 Bank
860 Science Medicine University
960 SHAKESPEARE
1060 Science Theory of Gravity
1100 Trade with the Americans: Got Wheel/Engineering/Invention for four sciences.
1160 Science Sanitation
1240 ISSAC's
1360 Science Democracy
13-- Established Democracy Got Bridge building from Americans.
1400 Science Chemistry
14-- Science Navigation
1510 Science Physics
Spanish and Americans seem to be at war.
15-- Science Railroad
1580 Science Industrial
1600 Corporation Factory
1620 Refining
16-- Careless with log.
16-- Traded with Americans-Warrior Code-Metallurgy Allied with Americans against Spanish…Haven't seen Spanish yet. Americans gifted 100 gp to us.
1680 Science Explosives
1700 Science Combustion Caravan beaker bonus
17-- Electricity
17-- Electronics
1762 Steel
176- Automobile
1770 Mass Production
1772 Refridgeration
1776 Feudalism
1780 Barbs attacked and killed two freight…wonder if that one remaining dark sea tile is a barbarian curse?

Accurate log here. Resumed play after a guests left J
1782 Cavalry
1784 Leadership
1788 Tactic
1792 machine tools
1796 Miniaturization
1800 Computers
1802 Research lab
1804 Mobile
1808 Robotics
1810 Manufacturing Plant
1812 Atomic Theory
1812 Producing Freight one per turn finally.
1816 Nuclear Fission --City size 28 and will stop at 29 without disbanding one of two engs.
1820 Nuclear Power 15 Freight…Made decision to develop flight before Laser!
1824 Flight
1828 Radio Got a none rifleman. Researching Ad-Flt in two years… Got 19 Frieght. Only 60 shield power.
1832 Advance Flight ---Transforming Gems to Plains…hopefully buffalo ---
1836 Rocketry-finally Space is being researched. Seem to have run off science mastered
1836 Building Effel-don't want the Americans to know I'm going for something bigger might be less than enthusiastic.
1842 Space Hope the low shied doesn't kill me this game…hurry you engineers! Changed to Apollo
1848 Timed Plastics and Apollo for this year…develp'ing Laser …got 17 freight and now making
ss components while waiting for 80 shields for structures. 60/40 Sci/tax-4turn sci rate And got
Buffalo! (thanks inca911)
1851 2 components only twelve Freight down to 10! and 751 gold.
1852 3 components ……down to 8.
1853 Laser -researching super conductor…no trouble with Americans or Vikings. 4 components built.
1855 Finished components-Starting structures. Grassland changed to hill…food low…
1857 Super conductor…developing Fusion. 2 structures. One defender and just 5 freight.
Building a Module while waiting for mined hill. 40/60 sci/tax 6 years to fusion.
1858 Exactly eighty shields….Yikes! Can keep the two engineers for pollution. Spanish and Americans make peace finally.
1860 Building module while cleaning up pollution …at 79 shield. Ship: 4 3 3 1 0 0
1863 Fusion! A dilemma….is one year worth losing only defender due to -80 shield?…NO!. Making two year module.
1865 Ship: 6 3 3 1 1 1
1874 Ship: 15 3 3 1 1 1 AC arrival date is 1889 No engineers left food problems. City size 28
1875 No problems with Ally …still at peace with Vikings….keeping contact at minimum. Americans dangerous force.
1876 First plane reveals land convoy of American Diplomats doing the artic sleigh ride
1877 Stealth! Americans only have Rocketry . Enthusiastically allied with Americans.
1879 Americans research Space…build one structure.
1880 Alliance dissolved…wouldn't talk to the Americans when they built 10th structure.
1881 Sam Battery….have one aegis and one stealth fighter and 1 fighter and one non rifleman.
1882 Avoiding contact helped slowing down the powerful Americans. 28 structures already!
1883 SDI What the hell…only thing that threatens is missles. Americans ship 32 structures.
1889 Markos Apolyton the Glutton. --Only in OCC Lots of pollution-six tiles.
American Ship 39 0 0 0 0 0! They may have had more diplomats than Structures.

Success due to Overflow science management and shield minimization….no recycling! (first for me.) No late year wars. Oh, a lot of caravan beaker bonus with American Trade. I liked doing Components and Modules while terraforming to 80+shield and cleaning up pollution. Map observations: Early isolation hurt, but late isolation helped with all the American dips doin' the arctic sleigh ride. Pollution was a nuisance


Later,
Aurelius YES! Finished my first log ! Time to check out others!

(Damn you guys keep accurate logs! )

[Aurelius]

Thoroughly enjoyed Grigor's woeful tale and brave heart--dat was a log!

Au.

[gambler]

Well, I landed in 1895, but I didn't keep a log (it's too boring).
I'm not going to try again to win a challenge, I'm jut trying to have fun.

[Scouse Gits]

Sten, ?mojo? .. couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!
Seriously, that was severe bad luck - almost as bad as ours was good (only a small gloat)

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited January 21, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

Well, on my second attempt I landed in 1902. True to form I got a double peasant revolt with 40+ cannons and muskets around 1800 which delayed me a bit. I kept bribing cannons to attack the stacked entry point only to lose both cannon in the attack and dip on the counter. But it was fun, even knowing a little about the map.

So what did you think about the little scenario?

I was intending to leave you somewhat isolated at the start, forcing the decision to go for maps early and make contact. The polar land bridges were a last minute addition to the map, initially the connection to the Americans wasn't there.

Did anyone have the AI colonize your island? I wanted to make it small enough to patrol, but large enough to make it difficult to control. It seems as though most of you were left alone. I liked starting with some sub-optimal specials. The wheat was better than I thought since you can irrigate it and get 3 food during despotism, and then turned to silk; and the pheasant gets turned into buffalo quickly.

I also wanted the AIs to expand enough to seriously challenge for AC, so I went with just 3 AI civs, but it seems as though only the American civ got there. Perhaps a more expansionist group of AIs would have done better. Anyway, it was fun to "design" (tweak) and I am open to ideas for a new map!

[Smash]

It was good.You can see this by the variety of results.In my attempts I found the isolated site beneficial as the ais couldn't get to me in any numbers at all.Course my first attempt had the Americans destroyed pretty early or they may have been on my doorstep

I had Explosives earlyish and no pollution, so I actually took the trouble to build a road along the arctic connecting to the Americans. That bumped two of my trade routes up to an astonishing +24 (eventually +28), which I'd only seen in situations where both cities had airports. I just plopped a couple of NONE Rifles on the conveniently placed mountain to block the hordes of dips the Americans sent my way…

[Scouse Gits]

yes, we too had a vet NONE Archer holding that mountain

Sten - I replayed the MAP - not the scenario as I had neglected to take it home - and was greeted by the Mongols, Vikings and Zulus what a different game! I did not get a single gold coin or a single tech from them during the whole game - researched Pottery in 1800!!! and launched in 195x - Sorry folks did not keep a detailed log - I was trying a new start strategy - will post the details once I am convinced it can work

Aren't we about due for #2???

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Aurelius]

Maybe the trick is to ignore the artic pass...though I didn't either! I used a caravan to patrol and found time to build a railroad to the strategic mountain fortress. Was pretty quiet up there. I'm curious what Paul did up there?

don Don! You actually built one of those AI railroad throught the Tundra? That would take some doin'

Was I the only one to get an alliance with the Americans? It wasn't for much money but the science exchanges were wondrous.

Sten, a viking settler tried to encroach into the territories through the pass, but barbarians killed it! As for the Americans, they never landed on Greece, but they did send a trireme early on to take a cheap shot.

Where's this second map, I've been practicing!

AU

Forgot to say I appreciated Scouse Gits' and Grigor's analysis corelation outlines!
[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited January 26, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

I'll have a new map for the weekend. I thinking up devious things!

[Aurelius]

Scouse Gits,

Just got done looking at your log! Did the message say Major Barbarian landing..." or Major barbarian uprising...." I've gotten the later before. Shocking how many rifleman and artillery (or horse and Chariots) can start tromping through the swamps to get ya. That's what I call diplomat time.

Also noticed that you got an early alliance with the Americans. My alliance didn't occur until after 1600--most inhospitable world.

You were questioning going into a hut early on when you got pottery. I think it is just bad luck to get science before Monarchy unless it is leading to Trade or Monarchy. But in a recent game I played, I was just about to develope Monarchy and I held off on the hut two turns...and it was a science!

Paul built Darwin's! This little detail escaped me. And he got an 600BC alliance with the Americans.

Red Baron Got an Early Monarchy! And an American alliance too.

I'm still wading through these logs....

And looking forward to the machinations of the mapmaker.

AU

[Paul]

Aurelius, that was 600 AD, not BC.

(Edited because I accidentally posted the reply to an other thread here)
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited January 26, 2000).]

No, it was not a RR, just a road. Don't forget, as long as a land mass is touching the Arctic/Antarctic circle it is considered part of continent #1. So on that map everyone is on the same continent. That leads to relatively low trade route icons.

quote: Trade icons=(source trade+destination trade+4)/8. (half of the trade goes to each city) Modifiers: Both cities are yours: -50%. Freight unit: +50%. Cities are connected by a road: +50%. Cities are connected by a railroad: +50%. Both cities have airports: +50%. Cities are on different continents: +100%. [Source] city has superhighways: +50%. [affects each city individually, though trade increase from having will increase route trade slightly] The bonus is explained earlier. These modifiers therefore apply only to the trade icons generated, not to the bonus. And fulfilling demand doesn't increase the trade icons, only the bonus. Distance doesn't affect trade icons, only the bonus.

So far nearly every OCC game I've played has been on one large land mass. Typically the only bonus you get is if you establish the route with a Freight, Superhighways (your city always, AI sometimes), and (rarely built) Airport. Unless you go to the trouble to build a road and then a RR.
[This message has been edited by don Don (edited January 26, 2000).]

[Aurelius]

Paul, sorry about that, just associated SG's early alliance with yours as I just did a cursory scan of various logs in search of Alliance dates.

Hey, I had a question about your Tech advancement preferences. In this Fortnight One Competition, I seemed to be able to get to Fusion fast (Flight to Fusion without dead end sciences.) But in other OCC games, I've had a struggle getting From Flight to Fusion with so much irrelevant sciences. Is there any rhyme or reason to Tech progression? (besides the requirement outline!)

I do appreciate the idea of NF and NP after Space, but sometimes the situation doesn't allow for this. I saw you and Smash both did NF and NP after Space (and others no doubt.)

Thanks, Aurelius

(BTW--Did you find Darwin's helpful? I'm usually too busy trying to make caravans these days but this scenario may have given you too much time for production and not enough time for advances--really surprised me!)

[Aurelius]

don Don,

I've seen that quote before, but I had forgotten the significance of connecting roads as it relates to trade. So that quote relates to the trade routes in the city box and not the one time trade bonus'. I wasn't a big time trader before finding Apolyton, but there is no turning back! In a recent OCC game, I was trying to figure out why my trade sciences were moving along faster than I expected. I actually did build a road that connected up with my trade partner. (Purely coincidental for me )

I was wondering if there were any good threads on the effects of AI science advancements on our civ's Time of science development....

AU

[Paul]

I don't know what determines what your next research options are, but I just research my tech path and hope that I will get to Space Flight without too much deviation.

And yes, I find Darwin helpful. If you micromanage your science you should have enough money to buy it almost from scratch. And with 10 caravans for Apollo and the components/modules you wouldn't really need more caravans. Darwin will of course not make a great improvement to your landing date but it will take a few turns less to get to Space Flight.

[Tom DeMille]

I'd say Darwin knocks 4 turns off your landing date (science tends to be coming in every 2 turns at that point in the game), so it would save you 8 years in an early 1800s landing. If you haven't been successful in extracting money from allies, you won't be flowing in cash at this point. Probably better to save up for more important things, and make sure you don't run out of money/caravans halfway through building your spaceship.

don Don, thanks for your listing of caravan trade modifiers. Armed with this information I'll be able to squeeze another 3 or 4 trade arrows per turn out of my routes. The %50 freight modifier indicates indicates a need to quickly send off 3 freight not just for the 1 time bonus (I usually hold off a bit and hope for another city to demand my new commodities). I notice that distance to the other city doesn't matter. A question - are the %50 road and %50 railroad bonuses cumulative. If they are, then a railroad to a city is just as good as sending a caravan to another continent.

[Paul]

I have made a table comparing some important dates of the various players. It took some time going through all the logs and I may have missed some things so if I got anything wrong please let me know. The url is http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occfort1.htm

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

[Smash]

interesting stats.I definetly got work on the time between Construction and Sanitation.Get those trade routes much earlier.MUCH EARLIER.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks, Paul a very useful summary ...

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

Paul - I did build Darwin, described as:
"1792 Go broke beating Spanish to Darwin -> Tac, Ref"

[Paul]

I have added to my tables the pop 12 and 18 dates (yesterday) and the interval from Space Flight to Alpha Centauri (today). I also added turns from start in brackets with the intervals.

And I added don don's Darwin