The Chiron Chronicle: Discussions (Restart 3) - Page 6

Mr. President · August 5, 2001, 20:36

Glad you guys are here. Forgive the dumb question: How do I figure out which technologies I have and which technologies I get? I'm sure this was posted previously, but I either missed it or forgot.

What are relations like between the Chiron Alliance and the Spartans?

As long as Morgan is the Governor, he will feel secure against his rivals in the Alliance. But should he ever lose that position, he may once again seek to defend himself, diplomatically or otherwise, from the Data Angels (who many on the Executive Board see as anarchists) and the Gaians (who many on the executive board see as radical envionmentalists).

Sprayber · August 5, 2001, 21:19

I'm away for two days defending my country and a flurry of activity takes place. Where to start?

LMP my email is chrisspr@hotmail.com.

Guardian: I like your stratigy for Lal. I'm getting the impression that Braddock has been putting a lot of pressure on Lal on the homefront.

The Spartans will not accept Lal's claim that they can go anywhere regardless of borders. To be honest, they don't care if the PKs deploy troops on Gain soil or not. Thats a mistake by the Gians as is their right to make if they so choose. But don't expect that they will allow PK soliders on Spartan soil or tolerate them on Believer soil without Miriam's approval. The Spartans also will begin to make it clear to the Believers that their war with the cult is fine, but that they should excercise restraint and not mess with the Gians. At least not now.

Sparta will continue to walk the fine line that it has walked for 17 years. I've been reading up on the Pelopnnesian War. Sparta's advice would be that the PKs give up on the past.

j/k

Guardian · August 5, 2001, 21:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Natan
So in short, Lal claims that he, and not the council, is above all factions and the rightful ruler of Chiron, because an organization from a dead planet declared him so over a century ago.

Not exactly. That is, Lal does not consider himself a ruler of very much at all, he merely does not consider the U.N. dead. I suppose that technically, you could say that it is the Council that IS the U.N. on Planet and that the Peacekeepers are "just another faction", equal in status to anybody else. The Peacekeepers, however, do not see things quite that way. They still see themselves as the U.N. Peacekeeping Forces, with the same authority as this body had - or was supposed to have - back on Earth. In a way, they DO consider themselves the only "legitimate" authority on Planet. You know, this whole thing WAS a U.N. mission all along. So, as long as the Council hasn't specifically instructed them NOT to do so, the Peacekeepers will go about enforcing the U.N. Charter any way they can, and on their own if necessary.

Quote:

Originally posted by kassiopeia
I always considered Lal's authority over others hazy, at minimum. First of all, Captain Garland was the commanding officer and leader of the mission, but I don't have evidence of Lal being the Second Commander. I always thought Ship Surgeon's were on a different branch in command hierarchy.

Actually, Yang was the Executive Officer (XO) on board, which means that he was technically Second in Command of the whole Unity mission. And yes, Lal would be in a totally different branch of the hierarchy. (Precisely this is one of Yang's main objections to Lal being in the position he is. However, Yang was busy building his Hive and never wanted to command the Peacekeepers.) Lal did seem to have some kind of special status on the Unity Mission, but he wasn't actually in command of very much at all except the medical stuff.

Quote:

Secondly, like Natan pointed out, who cares about the UN? Lal's whole power is based on it, so naturally he cares, but really... I don't disagree with the human rights sections (so far

) but does the Charter state that the "highest UN official" should take command?
And if this is so, then accepting the UN charter would basically mean accepting Lal as your leader. And I see no reason why an independent faction would agree to this.

Lal's not into power. He's just into keeping his dream alive and doing what he believes is right and good for everybody. (-Except maybe a few criminals who should never have been trusted with power in the first place!)

As for the U.N. Charter, it says nothing about who you leader should be. It is simply a set of rules, sort of like a Code of Conduct, governing how the U.N. should act, how individual leaders and governments should act, and how people in general should be treating each other. So, there is precisely nothing in there that places Lal in charge of anything at all, but there IS justification for him to slap your fingers when you break the rules...

Guardian · August 5, 2001, 21:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
I'm away for two days defending my country and a flurry of activity takes place. Where to start?

Defending your country? Like, National Guard? Me too! (In Norway, that is...

)
Was supposed to have all my stuff at home so I can move out on short notice, kind of like the Minutemen of the American Revolution. Wife found out that they were gonna give me a rifle to take home and ammo for it too

, and... well, she threw a BIG fit about not having weapons in the house. So... I had to write a letter to my unit and beg them to please not send a weapon home with me. Want to know what happened? They gave me a bigger gun! So, all of a sudden, I was a machine gunner... Reason: you don't take a machine gun home with you, even if you ARE a National Guard. So, it solved my problem on the home front, but now I have to drag that big dog around with me every time I'm in the field... (It weighs almost 30 pounds - about 13 kg - and that's not including any ammo...

)
Anyway, enough of that...

Quote:

Sparta will continue to walk the fine line that it has walked for 17 years. I've been reading up on the Pelopnnesian War. Sparta's advice would be that the PKs give up on the past.

j/k

-And just what was that supposed to mean, eh? Do you think we'd still hold a grudge? Now, where would you get that idea from??!?

Nah... seriously, the Peacekeepers (even the "pro-war" ones) are no longer seeking revenge, but we still don't trust you Spartans very much...

Sprayber · August 5, 2001, 22:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian
Defending your country? Like, National Guard? Me too! (In Norway, that is...

)
Was supposed to have all my stuff at home so I can move out on short notice, kind of like the Minutemen of the American Revolution. Wife found out that they were gonna give me a rifle to take home and ammo for it too

, and... well, she threw a BIG fit about not having weapons in the house. So... I had to write a letter to my unit and beg them to please not send a weapon home with me. Want to know what happened? They gave me a bigger gun! So, all of a sudden, I was a machine gunner... Reason: you don't take a machine gun home with you, even if you ARE a National Guard. So, it solved my problem on the home front, but now I have to drag that big dog around with me every time I'm in the field... (It weighs almost 30 pounds - about 13 kg - and that's not including any ammo...

)
Anyway, enough of that...

Yeah I'm in the National Guard. That's why I love the Spartan Militia so much.

In April, We will be going to Germany for a month of training. But we keep our weapons at the armory. Of course we would have a little more warning than you guys would.

Guardian · August 5, 2001, 23:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber

Of course we would have a little more warning than you guys would.

I should hope so for your sake.

Last time was a disaster in our end...
By the time someone thought about mobilizing, the Germans were already pouring in...

The National Guard had no part in that fiasco though. We were formed after the war to keep it from happening again! (That's why we don't take the time to stockpile all weapons between each time we go out. Only the heavy stuff stays in the armory.)

Mr. President · August 5, 2001, 23:44

I get the impression I'm not a very popular Planetary Governor.

If I understand the situation correctly, Lal and Roze, and possibly Deirdre as well, will be gunning for Morgan at the next Council. I do not yet know whether he can rely on Yang and Santiago's votes; I am almost certain Miriam will either abstain or vote for another candidate. (Are people allowed to abstain?) So Cha Dawn and Domai could become very important. In the case of Dawn, economic assistance will certainly come into the equation. For Domai, Morgan Industries could help provide a market for his industrial power, either directly or through our position as Governor (which we have a good chance of retaining if Domai votes for us

).

Sprayber · August 6, 2001, 01:07

Santiago would of course like to be PG. But since that isn't very lilely to happen she would vote for someone not in the Chiron alliance. If Morgan would like her votes, then I'm sure that a credit transfer and or tech transfer would be more than enough to secure her vote for Morgan. Even though the Spartans and Cult aren't officially at war, Santiago views them as meanace to society as a whole and would like to see morgan sale arms to the believers instead.

As for the Spartan relation with the alliance. It depends on who you talk about

PK--they are tolerated and there are currently efforts to convince them that some of their allies are not as friendly as they seem. They see Lal's attempt to assert UN supremacy as dangerous. And will continue to watch for signs of a more aggressive stance by the likes of Braddock.

Gians--The Spartans are indifferent to them. As long as they refrain from entering the Beliver-cult war on the side of the cult then Sparta has no animosity towards them.

Cyborgs--The Spartans are slightly concerned about the cyborgs simply cause they don't really trust machines that are part human. But Sparta is content to leave them be for now.

Data Angels--Very little official contact. See them as a possible weight against the Pirates in the future. Unofficially the former leader(Kessel) allowed classified lists of cult of war members to be send to Data angels so that the cult would be destroyed. locations of secreat cult bases were also transmitted.

Pirates--Viewed as main threat to Spartan security. Privately the Spartans kind of admire the Pirates and if things were different, would pursue a friendly policy towards them. Can you imagine an alliance between the Pirates and Spartans? Planet would be theirs for the taking. But as it is, fate as set them on a possible collision course.

DarkCloud · August 6, 2001, 20:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. President
I get the impression I'm not a very popular Planetary Governor.

If I understand the situation correctly, Lal and Roze, and possibly Deirdre as well, will be gunning for Morgan at the next Council. I do not yet know whether he can rely on Yang and Santiago's votes; I am almost certain Miriam will either abstain or vote for another candidate. (Are people allowed to abstain?) So Cha Dawn and Domai could become very important. In the case of Dawn, economic assistance will certainly come into the equation. For Domai, Morgan Industries could help provide a market for his industrial power, either directly or through our position as Governor (which we have a good chance of retaining if Domai votes for us

).

For Morgan for Planetary Gov.
-
University
Hive?
Spartans (helped them, not a lot during the last war)

Against
-
Lal
Deidre
Cyborgs

Unknown
-
Free Drones (for morgan if trade)
Believers (For morgan if he supports them, but they really don't like his materialistic influences)
Cult of Planet (for Morgan if they support him, but they really don't like his pollution)

(People are allowed to abstain)

For the techs, just copy the techs another faction has, make sure that you have 3-5 less than the Cyborgs and University. Then choose which ones you want to replace some of them. There was a formula (designed by me) but we have elected to ignore it.

Mr. President · August 6, 2001, 21:01

Yang and/or Santiago may eventually be able to trade their support for Morgan's campaign for his support for future gubernatorial campaigns of theirs, should the situation change.

Not an ideal situation (obviously Morgan would rather remain governor) but if worst comes to worst, it's an option.

P.S. When does the game begin? I'm getting really psyched up for the Council, and after.

Guardian · August 6, 2001, 21:26

Working on the second part of my history (2183 - 2200) right now. Will post it in another little while. I believe I see the Hive replacing Sparta as the Peacekeepers' no. 1. adversary.
I suspect Yang won't mind being seen as such...
He'd gladly send us all off to labor camps right now if he could. :banned:

Guardian · August 6, 2001, 21:42

Well, duh! Looks like I'm gonna have to eat my words again here...
Sorry about that, but I really I have to get some sleep here...

I'll post my history thing tomorrow. Bye 4 now!

Sprayber · August 6, 2001, 21:52

Kass--you never did comment on the history of Spartan involvment in the beliver-cult war. I just wanted to make sure its ok

Guardian--Sparta will be your friend if you want.

we can send advisors to the PK island and teach you guys the art of war.

how are we going to start this thing? do we start it with the planetary council, cause there are some things that the Spartans would like to bring up there.

Natan · August 6, 2001, 22:21

The Hive will be behind Morgan; even though Yang would like to be governor himself, he will not tolerate Lal as governor. The Hive wants to maintain its alliance with Sparta and to get new allies against the Chiron alliance, and it also wants to completely discredit Lal and the PKs. Basically, Yang feels threatened by the Chiron alliance and wants to smash it, or at least create an effective counter-alliance. Finally, he really doesn't like the Drones.

My e-mail is njrabkin@twcny.rr.com

Guardian · August 7, 2001, 04:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
Guardian--Sparta will be your friend if you want.

we can send advisors to the PK island and teach you guys the art of war.

Are you serious?
Hmmm... well, it IS an interesting idea, although perhaps a little premature at this point. I guess Kessel and/or Santiago could start preparing the ground though, if this is what they want. People like Braddock take a while to convince, but they may come around eventually. As for advisors... well, we could send advisors too. -But perhaps you don't really need to learn how to fight Spartans...

Quote:

Originally posted by Natan
The Hive will be behind Morgan; even though Yang would like to be governor himself, he will not tolerate Lal as governor. The Hive wants to maintain its alliance with Sparta and to get new allies against the Chiron alliance, and it also wants to completely discredit Lal and the PKs. Basically, Yang feels threatened by the Chiron alliance and wants to smash it, or at least create an effective counter-alliance. Finally, he really doesn't like the Drones.

Lal, of course, is going to run for governor again. The Peacekeepers will also be doing some fancy diplomatic footwork in order to keep their allies and defend their position as Peacekeepers. Also, will put a lot of resources up against anyone trying to discredit them, so it won't be an easy job. And the thing about feeling threatened is a rather mutual experience; Peacekeepers feel threatened by Yang and will do what they can to keep him at bay. Finally, the Peacekeepers will be likely to support the Drones.

In short: This does not bode well for peace and stability, but makes for an interesting game!

Kassiopeia · August 7, 2001, 06:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
Kass--you never did comment on the history of Spartan involvment in the beliver-cult war. I just wanted to make sure its ok

Sorry, I have been a bit occupied lately

I have nothing to add, sounds fine.
Mr. President: The Believers will back you up in the election, if you are willing to pay for it

DarkCloud · August 7, 2001, 09:34

Starting... I suppose we will start when LMP seconds it. Which will probably be after Guardian posts the rest of his history. And Mr P oks and reads the Morganites history that I wrote.

I think we will start about two weeks to 1 week before the new planetary elections to allow the intrigue to build up.

Guardian · August 7, 2001, 09:41

Okay, I finally got my history up to date. Please check out the "PK History Volume 2" in the History an Summary thread and let me know what you think... (Yeah, I wrote A LOT again...

)

By the way, I altered the events on the Western Continent a little... It seems the Peacekeepers were really more or less all over the place over there, not just on/around the Gaian border. Also added a naval task force and marines making an amphibious landing...

As matters stand right now, it looks like our relationship to other factions will be something along these lines...

Spartans: Well, I guess it really didn't take a lot, but things are A LOT better than they were 20 years ago! We still have opposing interests and are still kind of watchful towards each other, but nowadays, a Spartan and a PK might actually meet up and have a talk, and then both go home afterwards. 20 years ago, any and all such meetings would have taken place on a very strict "kill or be killed" basis.

Hive: Uh, oh! Better watch out here... They do NOT like us and we do NOT like them. We also do NOT feel comfortable living so near each other. (i.e. on the same planet...) From the PK side, we're currently trying to ease the tensions a little, but we will only bend so far...

Pirates: Relations are still fairly cordial between us, although there have been a few minor "bumping" incidents where we've both tried to assert naval dominance in the same area at the same time. The U.N. Navy is still dwarfed by the Pirates and we're not going to try to compete with them, but we do reserve the right to send our navy wherever we think it needs to be.

Data Angels: They're still our friends, but maybe not quite as close as we were starting to get in 2183??

I don't know about this really. What do you say Argo?? (The Peacekeepers will certainly try to stay friendly with you.)

Cyborgs: Things looked bad for a while. Now they look a little better again. We'll see if it lasts...

Gaians: I believe they may be a little annoyed with us after the recent pushing and shoving over on the Western Continent, but I hope we're still on friendly terms...

(We're currently trying to cool things down and repair any damage done...)

Believers: Not doing too great with you guys, are we? Oh, poor little Believer, was the big nasty Peacekeeper mean to you when he got angry? Well, the cute, nice little Peacekeeper is back now and she will try to set things right for you all. -But then you'll have to talk to her, let her in and show her what your problems are, etc...

Cult: I'm sorry, but we're gonna have to act neutral here. The nice, cute little peacekeeper will stay with you indefinitely, but the big nasty Peacekeeper can't protect you if you're bad...

Morgan: You greedy little bastard! You'd better watch yourself, cause we are! (watching you, that is...

) Any more dirty tricks from you might make us very ANGRY!!!!!

-but of course, if you do behave, we will be interested in trading with you...

University: Hey! What are you doing? Hey! Be careful with that thing! Hello! We're talking to you! We said watch i... OH NOOOOOO!!!! Now look what you've done! You'd better be more careful next time or we'll have to get mad at you too! -And you'd d@mned well better not test any of that sh*t on people!!!!!!

Drones: We hear your nasty uncle Yang is still after you...
Let us know if you need anything, okay?

Oh, and by the way, it WOULD be nice if your industry got a little cleaner. We could help you out with the technology...

Okay, I think that's about it for now...
Once again, feel free to let me know if you have other ideas.

Kassiopeia · August 7, 2001, 09:42

I am waiting for the map to get base details...

a.helin@phpoint.net

Argonaut · August 7, 2001, 15:56

Well Guardian,

The Data Angels are a little concerned about how pushy you've been getting overseas. WE certainly wouldn't like it if you started stomping all around Angel territory, poking your nose in our business. But, as long as you're doing it to people we don't know, we really don't mind one bit! And if you wanted to do it to people we don't like.... hmpguniversity.... morgan excuse me, then that would be great! Just don't piss off TOO many more people, cause we don't want to have fight ANOTHER war. Although we could take another base from Morgan. That would be nice.

Which brings me to another point, THERE IS NO WAY THE ANGELS WILL LET MORGAN GET BACK IN AS GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!

Just thought I'd voice my dissent at being left off the "opposed to Morgan list"

Guardian · August 7, 2001, 16:16

Okay, it sounds like the Data Angels are still our best friends in the Universe.

Always nice to have friends...

Oh, and of course, we do understand your concerns about these... ahem... somewhat unfortunate circumstances on the Western Continent, and... (*cough*)... well... sorry Gaians! Wasn't our intention to stomp on you people. We just sort of had to go through you to get where we needed to go... We'll try not to do it again anytime soon...

As for Believers/Cult... well, you know what? I think we need to talk...

Kassiopeia · August 7, 2001, 16:35

Keep it for the game, Guardian. But I'll just say that Miriam is not on an apologetic mood

Sprayber · August 7, 2001, 16:56

I think that Santiago would be interested in hearing some offers for her votes.

Morgan-No problem with voting for Morgan if the price was right. And I'm sure that if he stoped supporting the Cult of Planet compleatly, we could pursuade the Believers to vote for you as well. If the got something to take the sting out of voting for the material seeker Morgan/

Roze-Once again Santiago would have no problem voting for Roze if the incentives were right. She has been told by her advisor (Marshal Kessel) that the Data Angels are a faction that we can do buisness with when the time is right.

Lal-Well, even though she gets very annoyed at hearing the same old stuff over and over again. And considering it would annoy our ally the Hive, there would have to be major concessions to get a Santiago vote.

Yang-If Yang were to run, Santiago might consider voting for him. But he must realize that he would only get his and the Spartan vote, maybe the Believer. But not anyone elses.

Kassiopeia · August 7, 2001, 17:14

How are the votes per faction calculated? How does one define a factions population and it's growth?
(Let it be stated, that without contraception and abortion, the Believers should have a nice population, even though they don't have Growth bonuses in the game)
It's just that I don't think have seen these in the rules section.

Guardian · August 7, 2001, 17:32

Quote:

Originally posted by kassiopeia
How are the votes per faction calculated? How does one define a factions population and it's growth?
(Let it be stated, that without contraception and abortion, the Believers should have a nice population, even though they don't have Growth bonuses in the game)
It's just that I don't think have seen these in the rules section.

Basically, we have to figure this stuff out every time we have an election, and since we're supposed to take game developments into account, I guess we really don't have any set rules on how to do it. Last time, LordLMP just sort of decided how many votes each faction should have. He explained how he had figured it out and it made sense, so we just went with it. I don't know how he plans to do it this time, but probably something similar.

Quote:

Originally posted by kassiopeia
Keep it for the game, Guardian. But I'll just say that Miriam is not on an apologetic mood

Big surprise there...

Quote:

Originally posted by Argonaut
WE certainly wouldn't like it if you started stomping all around Angel territory, poking your nose in our business.

Then don't start going on crusades and shooting at everything that moves. (At that point, it stops being your business...)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
Lal-Well, even though she gets very annoyed at hearing the same old stuff over and over again. And considering it would annoy our ally the Hive, there would have to be major concessions to get a Santiago vote.

Let's see... last time I checked my PK - Spartan dictionary, I believe something like this translated into something like "Don't even DREAM about it!"

Argonaut · August 7, 2001, 17:35

Last time we did the vote via one vote per faction. (Actually, I think Lal got a bonus vote) Population wasn't taken into account for simplicities sake. I assume that's the way it would happen again. GMs?

My, I do enjoy this agreeable Santiago.....hmmmmm....what goodies could I come up with.....hmmmmm....

Kassiopeia · August 7, 2001, 17:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Argonaut
Last time we did the vote via one vote per faction. (Actually, I think Lal got a bonus vote) Population wasn't taken into account for simplicities sake. I assume that's the way it would happen again. GMs?

YES! That's ideal. It gives anyone the chance to run for election, and it really adds up to the intrigue. No the population buggers can't overwhelm.

Guardian · August 7, 2001, 17:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Argonaut
Last time we did the vote via one vote per faction. (Actually, I think Lal got a bonus vote) Population wasn't taken into account for simplicities sake. I assume that's the way it would happen again. GMs?

My, I do enjoy this agreeable Santiago.....hmmmmm....what goodies could I come up with.....hmmmmm....

Ummm... I think the 1 vote per faction was for Zakharov's trial or whatever. I specifically remember LMP explaining why faction so and so should have more votes than so and so because of larger population.

As for Santiago... yeah, she sure is a lot "nicer" all of a sudden, isn't she?
The poor thing... maybe she's just a misunderstood genious and we all hated her guts because we thought she was an evil b*!?...

Sprayber · August 7, 2001, 18:33

Here are some changes I made in response to the other histories.

2185 Spartan navy enters the crusier age with the compleation of the SNS Spartan. The Spartan becomes the center of the first Spartan Task Force. The SNS Sovereign is under construction and three more are tentively planned.

2186Sparta transfers military hardware to the Believers as a continuing effort to help in the distruction of the Cult of Planet. Kessel urges Miriam once again to concentrate on Cult forces and reassures her that Sparta will back the Believers.

2188 Sparta issues concerns that the Pks are treading on dangerous ground. Kessel once again assures the Believers that Sparta will continue to support their war effort if they remain focused on the Cult. New advisors arrive in the Believer capital, but most are mearly replacements and not a significant buildup.

[2194: Parade Ground is founded on the island to the east of Assissan's Redoubt. Plans are formed to lauch a new Spartan Fleet. Sparta denies any part in guerilla forces operating inside PK territory. Spartan probe teams are put on high alert to counter any possible strikes.

**2196 Sparta ignores PK protests about Spartan support for the Believers. Santiago states that Sparta is just excersing it's rights to conduct foreign policy in supporting another faction. She also threatens to send Spartan combat troops to aid the Believers if any outside power moves against the Believers. After PK soliders set up base inside Cult territory, Santiago sends limited number of Spartan troops to Believer territory. She first asks and receives permission from Sister Miriam.

2197 Hawk of Chiron is founded near the Drone border.

2198 At the request of Colonel Santiago, Marshal Kessel approaches Lal in order to calm down the situation on the Western Continent. Since Lal is already moving in that direction, things proceed without many delays. Santiago assures Chairman Yang that she will support him if PK forces continue to violate his borders.

Last day of 2199Santiago calls for Lal to remove the PK base inside the war zone as a sign of good faith.

**Kas-this one depends on you. I just thought the believers would appreciate the jester of Spartan support.

Sprayber · August 7, 2001, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian

As for Santiago... yeah, she sure is a lot "nicer" all of a sudden, isn't she?
The poor thing... maybe she's just a misunderstood genious and we all hated her guts because we thought she was an evil b*!?...

Actually I think she has come to the realization that Sparta can't take on everyone. Besides she has seen how much influence Sparta can excercise if they aren't hated by everyone. That and she has Kessel right next to her advising on how to deal with diplomacy.

Santiago-"You mean we just can't blast them"
Kessel-"um no Colonel, we have to get someone else to blast them for us"
Santiago-"But where is the fun in that"