Free cities

[Mercantile]

When you play civ, if you get a free city, do you usually think it a sign of other civs or is it merely a free city?

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Do you wish to trade blows or goods? I offer both.

[Laertes]

My experience is that finding an advanced tribe in one of your first 6-7 huts is usually associated with a very bad starting position - an island, bad terrain, proximate neighbours (usually all three).

The city is almost always close to a special resource, but annoyingly misplaced for the patterns of four specials.

[Longfistking]

To me, it's a sure sign that in four or five moves the barbs are going to show up and take it. So you have to send a unit all the way to that city to defend it, or rush build a unit. Mostly, though, I think they're just free cities, unless it's early in the game. The bad side of getting them, from my experience, is that they're usually halfway across the world and I need the trade route. The good side is that sometimes you get improvements in them you don't have to build--temples, markets, even a library if you're lucky. I've yet to come across a free city that has walls, though.

[Ming]

If I understand the initial question properly... it's just a free city and has nothing to do with whether other civs are around or not.

If I was given the choice between a free city or Wandering Tribe, I would always want the wandering tribe. As pointed out, it's amazing how a free city ALWAYS seems to just miss the key special resources
A wandering tribe is non supported, and can be used to place a city on a nearby super location.

In SP games, free cities usually bother me. I play a more perfectionest style and really don't need the random cities. Each city I place is well planned. I usually keep my cities to the minimum depending on the size of the world, and what I'm trying to accomplish.

However, in MP games... GIVE ME THE FREE CITIES. I don't care were they are located, or if they have missed the specials. MP games are a race to expand.
A free city (even in a terrible location) early in the game can have an exponential effect on your growth.
To get a free city in the first 1000 years can pay big dividends down the road, while also help establishing territory early in the game.

[Chainsaw]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 09-18-2000 11:19 AM As pointed out, it's amazing how a free city ALWAYS seems to just miss the key special resources

Oh yes...The found city is NEVER on a shore, just exactly one sqaure away of it. I just hate having many ocean squares in the city radius not having the possibility to exploit them properly. I often start the production of a settler, try to avoid a food surplus and gain a nomad that way.

[DaveV]

Chainsaw - just because you produce a settler from a free city doesn't make it a nomad. When the settler is built, if the closest city belongs to you, the settler will be supported from that city.

[Ming]

Yeah Chainsaw... In SP games, I usually end up disbanding "free" cities so I can move it to where it should be. Against the AI, the delay doesn't hurt, and you will do better in the long run.

In MP games... I just go with the flow and do what I can with the new city. I have never disbanded one, because all cities are important in MP, even if they suck Now, I have used them as bait before...

[Chainsaw]

DaveV:
Right. My v2.42 update isn´t very old. Playing v1.02 you got a NONE settler, if the disbanded city wasn´t too near a friendely city (Playing 1.02 you also could build NONE units in some cities. And hime yor whole army there ).

Ming: I´m still desperately trying to get my hands on MPGE...

[Scouse Gits]

Yes - in good old version 1.07, the 128th city (and onwards) started to produce NON units. You were never sleazing seriously until you reached it!
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SG (2)

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 09-18-2000 07:20 PM Yes - in good old version 1.07, the 128th city (and onwards) started to produce NON units.

actually, it was 1.06 and lower.
patch 1.07 fixed that bug

don't know which version of 1.07 fixed it though, but i know 1.07c never had that problem, since I used to routinely have 129+ cities and no NON units produced from those cities

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Ribannah]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 09-18-2000 11:19 AM</font> As pointed out, it's amazing how a free city ALWAYS seems to just miss the key special resources

My guess is that free cities are only possible in locations where the AI would build a city, ie the outcome is generated by the same algorithm that decides the go/no-go for AI settlers. This would imply that a 4-specials free city is not possible. Or maybe even hut locations themselves are already subject to this rule.

If the hut IS in a spot that could house a free city, explore the tiles around it first and you'll have a better chance to get it (instead of Barbarians, mostly).

In my experience hut-popping results are, in addition to by (a) location, also influenced by (b) the terrain of the square itself (no cities in forests etc), (c) the standings (if you are behind in population, the chance of getting a free city is larger) and (d) the outcome of the last hut you popped (chances are higher it will be the same).


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited September 19, 2000).]

[Mercantile]

i agree that if you are behind in population you stand a higher chance of getting a free city or nomad. However this does't explain the free city from your first hut, which from what i have read seems to be huge in MP games.

Also, what is the deal with receiving three free cities in a row? i popped three huts in one turn on a river bed and got three free cities with only slightly overlapping radius's

[Novi Nomad]

In my opinion, free cities do mostly suck. There are always barbs nearby, and most of the time, they end up taking the undefended city the turn after I get it. They always miss the specials, and their locations are generally very poor. They tend to turn up far from the rest of my civ. The last few times I've gotten a free city, there have been too many citizens to support - I'd find a size four city from a hut, but there would be no grassland or food specials. So every turn I'd have to hear about the poor starving citizens in the lame city I didn't want in the first place. A wandering tribe is clearly way better to find, but I almost never seem to get them...

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Mercantile on 09-19-2000 02:24 PM Also, what is the deal with receiving three free cities in a row? i popped three huts in one turn on a river bed and got three free cities with only slightly overlapping radius's

My experience has been that hut results seem to come in bunches. In a given game, huts will often show a tendency to produce an unnaturally large quantity of one of the possible outcomes (cities, barbs, cash, units, nomads, techs). I assume it's due to unevenness in the random number generator.

On the topic of free cities, I view anything other than barbs from a hut as a gift from the computer. One of my main aims in the early game is to pick up all the huts I can. A free city can be a good base for expansion into a new area. Crank out a few settlers, and you can create new cities that use the specials the free city missed.

For those who don't like free cities - you can guarantee that they won't happen by using the cheat menu to wipe out all the huts at the start of a game. You can do this without revealing the map or doing any other cheating.

[Julius Brenzaida]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-19-2000 01:48 PM My guess is that free cities are only possible in locations where the AI would build a city, ie the outcome is generated by the same algorithm that decides the go/no-go for AI settlers.

Yes you are right. Advance Tribes are only founded on plains and grassland.
And so, Nomad Tribes are only discovered in other type of terrains. Mainly (I think) ice and forest.

[Mercantile]

DaveV, i didn't know you could do that

I view anything but the dreaded Warrior Code and barbarians as a plus from huts, but there is no doubt in my mind that random cities are often poorly placed.
Disbanding hopefully far enough away from my empire to have "none" status is ideal and then BAM! put the city where it would normally be placed.

I think this is done to guide you into making contact with other civs sooner than perhaps one normally would. Some games i do not pick up Horseback Riding until late, somewhat hampering my exploration if i don't get enough fast units or any for that matter

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Do you wish to trade blows or goods? I offer both.

[Julius Brenzaida]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 09-18-2000 11:19 AM As pointed out, it's amazing how a free city ALWAYS seems to just miss the key special resources

It's not amazing, it's mathematics. The pattern of resource and the pattern of huts are designed in a way that makes in impossible to have more than 2 resources in the radius of a hut.
Nothing to do about it.

[BlackJack]

Yeah, it's amazing how that advanced civ is just one or two squares away from the prefect spot. Anyway, I disband it too and build another where I wish it had been. What gets hard is when it's got the bunch of improvements somebody mentioned - sell them or make do with the bad location? And I think even worse, you continue exploring and discover new units attached to the city you're in the process of disbanding - again, keep it and make do, hustle 'em back and disband, or just watch them disappear? ... Oh, well ....

[Jim W]

quote: Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida on 09-19-2000 05:08 PM Yes you are right. Advance Tribes are only founded on plains and grassland. And so, Nomad Tribes are only discovered in other type of terrains. Mainly (I think) ice and forest.

I have several times found Advanced Tribes on Islands or Seacoasts. They are always, as has been noted, just a little off from taking proper advantage of all the nearby specials.

Jim W

[Chainsaw]

BlackJack:

If the city´s location is OK for starting a colonization of the area you´ve found the city, sell everything you don´t need. (I often find size three cities with e.g. granary, temple and marketplace.)
Otherwise, sell everything. That way, you can by off that disbanding settler for that money and you even get a surplus.

[Longfistking]

Beyond the chances of getting a free city in a hut, I've always wondered what the chances are of getting a more "developed" city. Sometimes it seems that early in the game you might get a city with a temple and marketplace, and later in the game--when you're hitting the last of the huts--you get one with more improvements. I think I've hit a couple--mind you, out of hundreds of games--where the city had a library or the city was building an aqueduct. I might be wrong about that. Has anybody gotten a lot of improvements in a free city, or strange combinations of improvements?

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Longfistking on 09-20-2000 09:21 AM I might be wrong about that. Has anybody gotten a lot of improvements in a free city, or strange combinations of improvements?

thought I'd provide this link to a similar discussion -hut knowledge

late in the game (never did track down the triggering tech), i've gotten cities from size 1 up to size 4 with anywhere between 0 and 4 buildings (temple, granary, marketplace and library)

[Longfistking]

Yeah SCG, I just read that topic thread you pointed out, thanks. I swear that later in the game--say when I'm into building airports and such--that I've run across a size 6 or 8 city with lots of improvements and a defender in it, at least once in a blue moon. Maybe it's the same programming in the game that causes the AI to keep up with you on techs and wonders. It doesn't happen enough in my games to test it out, but next time I find one I'll report it.

[Mercantile]

is there a basis for cities with improvements? I have received cites with temples , markets and libraries. Never knew why or how, they must have been in awe of my glorious empire

[Bohlen]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Dino the Dinosore on 09-20-2000 12:43 PM</font> The found city is NEVER on a shore, just exactly one sqaure away of it. Not true in my experience. I have gotten a free city on the coast.

Well, I didn't know that was possible. I've never even seen a hut on a coastline before, let alone receive an advanced tribe on a coast. Anybody else have this experience?

[This message has been edited by Bohlen (edited September 20, 2000).]

[Ming]

The hut pattern will only NOT place a hut on the map if the square is an ocean square. It will place them on the coast. (I've seen it millions of times)

In addition, as long as the square on the shore is plains or grasslands, you can get an advanced tribe from it (I've seen that thousands of times)

[Dino the Dinosore]

quote: The found city is NEVER on a shore, just exactly one sqaure away of it.

Not true in my experience. I have gotten a free city on the coast.

[bpayne1]

I've always kept the free City, producing Settlers until I have more than enough Cites to control the area. I can usually keep the city at size 2 or 3 while doing this, and then I just quick build the last two Settlers from that City disbanding it. With just a little cost every so often to build the settler at just the right time, you can populate a new continent in no time.

[Mercantile]

bpayne1, that is correct. It is a great way to start a new front if your rival is there. Nothing like a chokepoint or defensive barrier to keep the "savages" out whilst you colonize the area and build backwards to connect the homeland ; even if the enemy isn't there, its a good strat though. You can never have too much land.

I am surprised that players don't regard far off cities, ie one's on the other side of your continent or ones on another island as signs of a rival civ nearby. Oh well, maybe i am reading WAY TOO much into civ these days

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Do you wish to trade blows or goods? I offer both.

[Barington]

I sometime send a diplomat on a ship to pick of these coast huts. If you get barbs the dip just jump back on the ship with the second turn.