deity attack bonus?

[debeest]

In the current barbarian habits thread, DaveV commented that he believes the Super Barbarian is an urban legend (I agree), but went on to comment that barbarians are often tough because of a 150% deity attack bonus. I remember a thread from a few months ago where we beat to death the question of the mathematics of attack and defense. Nowhere in that thread do I remember anything about a deity attack bonus, and I'm sure there is not one. Except I'm also sure that DaveV would whup my booty in a comparison or multi-player game, even though I try and try to emulate his style. Anybody else have reason to think there's such a bonus?

[finbar]

Barbarian attack strengths according to difficulty level:

Chieftain - 25%
Warlord - 50%
Prince - 75%
King - 100%
Emperor - 125%
Deity - 150%

On Deity, for example, a barb unit with an Attack Factor of 2, would attack with a strength of 3.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[debeest]

Is that coded in somewhere so that we can verify it other than by watching thousands of barbarian combats?

[Scouse Gits]

finbar - thanks for the above information. I hadn't realised that Barb attack strength was linked to levels of difficulty!
------------
SG (2)

[finbar]

The information was taken from the "Civ 2 Official Strategy Guide", p41. It's a useful chart:

GAME C W P K E D
FEATURE

Starting 50 0 0 0 0 0
funds

Content
citizens 6 5 4 3 2 1

Rows in
food box 15 13 12 10 9 8

Rows in
shield box 15 13 12 10 9 8

Science
Increments
(human) 6 8 10 12 14 14*

Science
Increments
(computer) 14 13 12 11 10 10*

Barbarian
attack
strength 25% 50% 75% 100% 125% 150%

*On Deity level, this number may be adjusted + or - 1, depending how far ahead or behind you are in research

Science increments (human) = the modifier used to help determine how many science light bulbs are required to discover the next advance for the player. Smaller the number, the more quickly advances are discovered

Science increments (computer) = the same, for computer-controlled civs.

Some other level-based info. Some may already know it, some may not:

CHIEF LEVEL - The attack factor of your units is doubled. Also, you are not charged the 50% shield penalty when you change the item being built in mid-production.

PRINCE (and higher) - The AI-controlled civs may be "assisted" by the computer if you are significantly ahead in technology, especially in the case of Civ Advance research. Also, the higher the difficulty level, the more likely alliances will be formed against you. At the higher levels, the AI will try harder to build spaceships; and if you are the first to launch a spaceship, the computer-controlled civs often team up to achieve your destruction (regardless of treaties).

EMPEROR & DEITY - AI-controlled civs can bribe your cities. Also, AI civs won't trade you any techs that allow you to build a Wonder that they are already building.




------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[The Mad Viking]

I dunno, but the way two barb cruseders just SMOKED my two fortified musketeers, (deity) I am a BELIEVER.

Is the defense factor modified too?

[Tom DeMille]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 09-22-2000 11:40 AM Is that coded in somewhere so that we can verify it other than by watching thousands of barbarian combats?

I'm sure it would only take hundreds...

[Scouse Gits]

Good stuff! I don't have any strategy guides - I think many posters are in the same boat. Just the sort of information we should be placing in the Great Library - if we are ever given space to build it!
(Do I really have to start a couple of hundred threads on the Apolyton section - starting with "Hey! Ming, Dan and Mark - read this?"
-------------
SG (2)

[Laertes]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 09-22-2000 12:16 PM I dunno, but the way two barb cruseders just SMOKED my two fortified musketeers, (deity) I am a BELIEVER. Is the defense factor modified too?

I just lost a Legion on a hill (not fortified) to an AI warrior (not a barb) under a sneak attack. (I foolishly thought that the AI would not dare attack!!)

My Legion was a NONE unit, and I seem to experience that NONEs are weaker defensively than built units.

Any opinions?

[finbar]

There's a single, fundamental flaw in all these mathematical equations relating to attack and defence strength - it's called the inexplicable event.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Bohlen]

Damn...I learn something new every day.

[debeest]

Wow! Lots of stuff there I didn't know. Thanks, Finbar.

I assume the Official Strategy Guide is a book, not something I could access directly on the Web (for free)? Is it really official, so that we can be pretty confident it's accurate, or is it just somebody's conclusions? Conclusions can easily be wrong: I, for example, recently decided to find out (for the AI cheats thread) exactly how the numbers-of-food-and-shields-needed-by-the-AI varies according to level, and since the empty box itself shrinks below 10-size at high levels but doesn't grow beyond 10-size at low levels, I concluded that it was 10 for levels 1 through 4. But just now I created a first-level game and cheat-observed a couple dozen turns, and lo and behold, the StratGuide is right and I was wrong.

But I can't figure out an interpretation of the science numbers that makes sense to me. The number of beakers needed for the next advance is [the number of the next advance] multiplied by [an integer that varies up and down but mainly grows as you progress]. There are factors that alter that integer up or down (your tech position vs. the AI is the only one I know), but the numbers you listed from the StratGuide have no relationship to the beaker calculation that I can see. Can you explain?

[finbar]

The book is "Civilization II - The Official Strategy Guide" by David Ellis, who works (or perhaps, by now, worked) for Microprose. It's of the "Prima's SECRETS of the games" series of books, published in 1996. We've talked about it before on the forums, and it seems it's hard to come by these days. You could perhaps try one of the web sites specialising in games publications.

I'd have to say it's fairly reliable. An equation printed in the book for calculating unhappiness factors was proved by one of our resident mathematicians here to have errors in it.

The book doesn't offer any more information about the science equation. Sorry, I'm not a mathematician, so I can't help you either. I know it's been discussed at length before in these forums. Hopefully one of those participants will see this and help out. You could try posting a thread about it in either this forum or the MP forum. You're bound to get the answer.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[debeest]

Last night I created a situation with dozens of barbarian battleships adjacent to dozens of my own and let 'em rip. My conclusion was, yes, the barbs have an attack advantage at deity, but no defense advantage. I think that probably agrees with the StratGuide. Interesting that they gave them an advantage only in attacking.

[finbar]

Yeah, it is. Though killing a Barb Horseman on a hill at Deity level takes a fair bit of doing.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[William Keenan]

Does the barbarian attack bonus apply when they are attacking the AI controlled civs?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Sadly, the AI is nearly invulnerable to barbarians. I don't know what its exact bonus is, but typically the barbarians need a 4:1*advantage to have a chance. Occasionally (usually if you witness an attack on the AI just after losing your own unit to barbs), the barbarians will win a more even battle. Having two barbarian knights die trying to kill an undefended AI caravan on grassland is not unusual.

* I've not uncovered any testing done to come up with the actual ratio.

[Edward]

Originally posted by debeest
Is it really official, so that we can be pretty confident it's accurate, or is it just somebody's conclusions?

I've come to trust the information on this board more than books. And heaven forbid you should believe something in the Civilopedia. However, all finbar's book's statements (except the one about science increments being adjusted by only +/- 1) seem accurate to me.

Originally posted by debeest
But I can't figure out an interpretation of the science numbers that makes sense to me. ...Can you explain?

See the ground-breaking, nobel-prize-winning work by samson (standing on the shoulders of giants) in the Great Library under "beakers". Specifically, read how your research rate is not based on how scientifically far ahead you are in general, but instead on how far ahead (or behind) you are compared to your "key civ":
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001828.html?17
And then an amazing and true formula for how your exact beakers needed are determined:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001831.html?6
The summary being that if you're behind your key civ by any number of techs (which generally only happens if you have some free starting techs) you get a meager -1 or -2 bonus to your base. If you're ahead of your key civ, you get a +1 penalty per 3 techs you're ahead by. Since there's not limit to this penalty, you'll pay out the nose if your key civ is eliminated or never started.

---

p.s.

Originally posted by debeest
Sadly, the AI is nearly invulnerable to barbarians. I don't know what its exact bonus is, but typically the barbarians need a 4:1*advantage to have a chance. ...I've not uncovered any testing done to come up with the actual ratio.

Marquis de Sodaq, your guesstimate looks a lot like the AI getting Chieftain bonuses against barb attacks.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by finbar
The information was taken from the "Civ 2 Official Strategy Guide", p41. It's a useful chart:

Ahhh now i know why some guys play so well, they know all the maths !!!

I wonder whether this info was jsut discovered or revealed by a programmer ???