Vet Spies

Scouse Gits · September 29, 2000, 20:35

Perhaps I should have known this...probably everyone else does...but Vet Spies buy cities about 20% cheaper than "green" spies.

That's how things are working out in "The AI head start challenge game"

Is this something else explained in the Strategy Guide I've never seen?

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SG (2)

Smash · September 29, 2000, 21:26

Hmmm....interesting.I can't confirm as I rarely bribe cities but it makes sense.Generally we don't need spys for the ai but I should know this for other situations.Such as the head start scenario.

eagerly awaits confirmation

finbar · September 29, 2000, 21:26

Spies pay less for a city than Diplomats, and Vet Spies pay even less.

City in disorder = Revolt Cost /2
No units inside city = Revolt Cost /2
City originally belonged to you = Revolt Cost /2
Unit inciting revolt is a Spy = Revolt Cost x 0.84
Unit, etc, is a Vet Spy = Revolt Cost x 0.67

And when all else fails, don't leave home without a credit card.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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Smash · September 29, 2000, 21:28

I don't need any more confirmation.It is mentioned in Scrolls of Wisdom.

Scouse Gits · September 30, 2000, 08:17

Thank you Sydney and Vancouver - "Three Way Family Favourites" was never as good as this! (Anyone remember Family Favourites in those days of "steam" radio - or should I say wireless?)

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SG (2)

finbar · September 30, 2000, 19:32

"Family Favourites"!

Used to be on Sunday mornings at about 10.30am on ABC radio. Haven't heard it for about 25 years. Sigh ...

Oh, and I never call it anything other than a wireless. I worked on a TV series set in the 1940s and the terminology stuck. "Ice chest" instead of fridge, etc.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited September 30, 2000).]

Barington · October 2, 2000, 18:06

RE: Family Favourites
Yes remember it all only too clearly; (Whatever happened to "Munchen Gladbook") it was on the Light Programme and I think it was followed by the Dreaded Billy Cotten Bandshow or perhaps it was the Clitheroe Kid. This was all before the entertainment tech was discovered of course.

Scouse Gits · October 2, 2000, 18:32

Yes - The Light Programme! Sometimes Family Favourites was followed by "Meet the Huggetts" (Jack Warner & Kathleen Harrison)
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SG (2)

Barington · October 2, 2000, 18:55

"Take it from Here" (Ron and Ef) the Navy Lark Ah; I could go on (and frequently do)- But do you remember "Journey into Space" (Mitch and Lemmy) They never reached AC as I recall but considering the graphic display was a light bulb behind a celluloid dial it was pretty gripping stuff.

finbar · October 2, 2000, 19:53

Not to forget "Just A Minute".

Oh, and I did forget "Around the Horne".

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited October 02, 2000).]

Barington · October 2, 2000, 20:19

Just a Minute is still on! (in the UK) and I have some "bona" Round the Horne tapes. Will we get thrown off for not talking about Civilisation?

finbar · October 2, 2000, 20:57

We still get "Just A Minute" occasionally. I noticed its creator died earlier this year or last year.

Yes, we probably will be told to can it. On the other hand, given that the average poster age around here is 3 1/2, we could argue this is educational material.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

Scouse Gits · October 3, 2000, 10:14

ROTFLMAO @ finbar (again)

Didn't we determine a month or so ago that the average age here on Strat was a tad higher (say 5 1/4) than on OT?

p.s. I don't think I've ever seen "Around the Horne" in print before - assuming that isn't a misplint what's the story on the extra 'e'?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

Barington · October 3, 2000, 18:09

No its not a misprint "Around the Horne" Was a reference to the star of the show the great Kenneth Horne.

Barington · October 3, 2000, 19:26

Sorry it should be "Round the Horne" the first series was called "Beyond our Ken" I am 53.75 years so memory not completely instant any more.

debeest · October 3, 2000, 20:23

Umm... to return to the titular topic... if that's OK...

Confirmation comes from the manual itself for city-in-disorder and empty-city (but I think it just says they're "cheaper"). There's no documentation for city-formerly-yours, but I've seen it stated as if it were definitively true. I can vouch for spies bribing cheaper than diplomats and for veterans bribing cheaper than rookies, although I don't think it's mentioned in the manual, but I'm pretty sure it's not cheaper by any consistent amount or ratio such as .84 or .67; I've tracked it.

This is a good opportunity to point out again that THE SCROLLS OF WISDOM ARE WRONG. The formulas given there for calculating the cost of bribing a city and for the immediate bonus and ongoing trade bonus of a freight or caravan are WRONG. They just don't work. (The demographics info is also pretty lame, although I don't think it's actually wrong.) In fact, as someone pointed out recently, the bribe cost sometimes varies depending on which square the spy approaches from, and there's nothing in Scrolls of Wisdom about that. I haven't figured out how to track back to the Usenet citation from ?Robert Lancaster?, but I would love to ask him or someone knowledgeable where those formulae came from and why someone originally believed them to be accurate.

finbar · October 3, 2000, 21:35

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 10-03-2000 08:23 PM

Confirmation comes from the manual itself for city-in-disorder and empty-city (but I think it just says they're "cheaper"). There's no documentation for city-formerly-yours, but I've seen it stated as if it were definitively true. I can vouch for spies bribing cheaper than diplomats and for veterans bribing cheaper than rookies, although I don't think it's mentioned in the manual, but I'm pretty sure it's not cheaper by any consistent amount or ratio such as .84 or .67; I've tracked it.

The manual is famously inadequate. There would have to be a ratio involved in order for the software to make the calculation.

quote:

In fact, as someone pointed out recently, the bribe cost sometimes varies depending on which square the spy approaches from, and there's nothing in Scrolls of Wisdom about that.

That surprised me too. The argument was that approaching from the side closer to the foreign Civ's capital rendered the city closer to the capital and therefore more expensive. But is that truly logical? The city is a certain number of squares from the capital. It doesn't and can't move. Surely the city's distance from the capital is the only factor involved.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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debeest · October 3, 2000, 21:54

Right, finbar, there has to be a formula. But my experience (having asked the same city on the same turn how much it would cost to bribe it with different units) is that it's not a SIMPLE formula such as x=.84y. The difference in cost between diplomat/spy/veteran spy varies according to factors I can't identify.

One of the bribe cost factors, identified by others, is which square you visit from, and I've verified by the same sort of experimentation that it does vary. Sometimes. If the formulae in the Scrolls of Wisdom were fully correct, they'd have to acknowledge that. Since they don't, they weren't derived from any kind of cold hard scientific experimentation or from the source code. So, why would we believe them?

[Edited to correct typo in formula]
[This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 04, 2000).]

Scouse Gits · October 3, 2000, 23:13

The bribe cost - whatever formula is involved - certainly increases nearer the capital. I have noticed that a spy's ability to sabotage also seems to decrease nearer the capital. I am wondering whether there is also a link to the genaral spying success rate and proximity to the main city.
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SG (2)

SCG · October 4, 2000, 08:33

If I were to rationalize the reason for the variable incite cost for a spy depending on direction, I would say that perhaps they were thinking that different neighborhoods in a city are more dissatisfied than others. We could use the Greater Los Angeles area as an example. If you wanted to get enough dissidents up in arms that the city would revolt, would you attempt to do so from Beverly Hills, or from Watts? The easy way to do this code wise is to use the corruption model already in use - and use spy location instead of city location.

Scouse Gits · October 5, 2000, 08:27

It's been some time since I tried to verify this, but my memory tells me that the Scrolls formula for bribing works (basic non-vet Diplo) if the distance used is the distance between the enemy capital and the diplo himself - certainly this explains the known fact that it's cheapest to bribe from the far side from the capital.

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

kcbob · October 6, 2000, 00:18

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 10-03-2000 09:54 PM
One of the bribe cost factors, identified by others, is which square you visit from, and I've verified by the same sort of experimentation that it does vary.
[This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 04, 2000).]

I can't remember either as to who identified this but the crux of it is that you want to bribe from the square furthest away from the AI's capital. When it works, you feel like you just found a bargain in a garage sale.

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