OCC Fortnight 10 - Discussion and Logs

[tonic]

Smash & Oldman: Thanks, that puts one important context to Paul's prescription for 2 eng's. The implication tho is that to cope with the costly degradation to 79- (even for 1 turn) one needs an adequate reserve in the coffers or of caravans/disbandable units. Any consensus so far on the minimum, say to complement Paul's recommended 9+ caravans?

Sorry to show my rust, but can you direct me to a convenient table (or if it's not too demeaning, repeat the figures here) for the number of turns the engineer takes to transform grassland to hills (and other major changes of terrain) required during this transition period to optimise my timing.

Oldman: Well chosen scenario, contrasting as it does with Vik's previous huge parallel land masses (which paid dividends from extra sea-based exploration). AI diplomacy being one of my weak-points, the close living with neighbours has taught valuable lessons in the nuances of AI behavior. BTW the pleasantly surprising Eskimo acquired knowledge provided one lesson - it sometimes pays to be nice to a recalcitrant neighbour.

Looking forward to OCC11 - meantime back to the retrospective comparison games for more hands-on practice.

tonic

[Paul]

Tonic, if your engineers clean up the pollution immediately your production will not go below 80. The game processes your production before it creates any pollution, so if you clean it up in the same turn it pops up you will never lose any production.

[Bohlen]

4 people got knocked off? I don't feel so bad now.

Stop rubbing it in.

[Bohlen]

Hey, I'm one of the four that got killed. I must be punishing myself by bringing it up. I haven't cived in any form in about 4 days, which is a record. What is wrong with me! I must be recovering from this OCC disaster!

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 06-08-2000 03:16 PM Hey, I'm one of the four that got killed.

Haha loser

quote: I die. Lucky me.

OK, so I'm a hippocrite.

[Scouse Gits]

Great game Oldman really enjoyed every nail biting moment .....

Gibralta OCC - v2.42 - deity

<< Personal Best!! 1655 Landing >>

Monarchy -3050
Republic -1050
Democracy AD60

Colossus -2250
Copernicus -525
Shakespeare -275
Newton 120
Darwin 440
Apollo 1340

Trade#1 -1750
Trade#2 -1550
Trade#3 -1250

Size 12 -775
Size 21 -25

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Comments: Lucky start with lots of four legged units allowed no supported units for much of history - CoL from a hut gave me the magic boost into a personal record - Chose to forest one of the plains squares - with hindsight it would probably have been better to hill one of the rivers - but did I have time?
---------------------

3950 Liverpool Rock founded on best guess site
3850 hut Non-Archer
3800 contact Luxembourgers - gift Ceremonial Burial for alliance
3650 hut Non-Chariot
3600 hut - supprted Horseman, Non-Chariot
3550 hut Non-Archer
3500 hut Non-Horseman - I've been lucky so far...; contact Tibetans - gift Bronze for alliance
3450 contact Seychellians - gift Bronze for alliance
3400 hut 50g
3300 hut Code of Laws!
3100 Monarchy; Revolution; hut Non-Horse
Tibettans: Map Making, Horseback Riding, Pottery + Maps
Seychellians: Warrior Code + Maps
Luxembourgers: Currency + Maps
3050 MONARCHY established
2900 Tibettans: 25g
2800 Gold mine completed; Seychellians: 25g
2750 contact Fijians - peace + maps; Maps all round
2700 Liverpool Rock now size 3 can maintain celebration @ 40% luxuries
Fijians: Writing + alliance
Seychellians: 25g
2600 Tibettans: 50g
2450 Maps all round
2400 hut 50g; Luxembourg: 25g
2300 hut Non-Legion; Fiji & Lxembourg: 25g each
2250 COLOSSUS - can reduce luxuries to 30%; Maps all round
2200 Fiji: 25g; Luxembourg: Iron Working
2100 TRADE; Fiji: 25g; Seychelles: 50g
2000 hut Non-Chariot; Seychelles: 25g
1900 Fiji: 50g; Seychelles: 25g
1750 DYE to LUXEMBOURG: 64g
1700 Literacy; Tibet: 50g; Luxembourg: 25g
1600 Tibet & Luxembourg: 25g each
1550 COPPER to LUXEMBOURG: 32g - luxuries reduced to 20%
1500 Fiji: 50g; Luxembourg: 25g
1400 100g + Masonry from allies
1300 25g
1250 BEADS to PASSARGADAE: 84g
1200 The Republic; Revolution; hut Seafaring; 25g from allies
1100 Temple; contact Eskimo peace for 100g ouch!! 125g from other allies
1050 REPUBLIC established; CONSTRUCTION, The Wheel, Mysticism, Mathematics
1000 WLCD starts @ 3
0925 Hides to Nikolski: 96g
0900 Colosseum
0850 Aqueduct (size 9)
0800 Philosophy -> Astronomy
0775 Harbour; WLCD stops @ 12
0750 allies: 275g + Bridge Building
0675 Gold to Umnak Island: 432g
0650 allies: 100g
0550 allies: 100g
0525 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY
0450 allies: 225g
0325 allies: 400g
0300 SANITATION
0275 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE; sell Colosseum
0250 WLCD starts @ 12; allies: 400g
0225 Sewage System
0200 Gift of 200g from Luxembourg (unsolicited)
0175 University built
0150 allies: 300g
0075 Invention
0025 WLCD stops @ 21; allies: 25g
----
AD01 Democracy; Revolution
0020 Bank
0060 DEMOCRACY established (at last!!); allies: 250g
0100 Theory of Gravity
0120 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE; allies: 325g + Feudalism
0140 Salt to Veii; 412g; contact Jamaicans: peace + Polytheism (oh goody)
0160 Gunpowder; 100g gift from Seychelles (unsolicited); Beads to Veii: 206g
0180 Magnetism; allies: 250g
0220 Metalurgy; Chemistry from Luxembourg
0260 Electricity; allies: 150g
0300 REFRIGERATION - Receptive Ally refused to share maps!
0340 Supermarket; Explosives; allies: 375g
0380 Steam Engine
0420 Railroad; allies: 475g
0440 DARWIN'S VOYAGE -> Economics, Industrialisation; WLPD starts @ 19
0500 WLPD stops @ 22 (food deficit)
0520 Salt to Veii: 288g; Beads to Veii: 144g; allies: 150g
0580 Combustion
0600 allies: 250g
0640 Steel
0700 AUTOMOBILE; allies: 375g
0720 Superhighways
0740 Conscription
0760 complete RR to Luxembourg; Oil & Beads to Luxembourg: 146g each (but trade route bonus now 3 * 30 per turn)
0780 Mass Production; Seychelles donate 200g
0820 Electronics; Gold to Suza: 362g
0840 allies: 50g + Chivalry
0880 Leadership
0920 Tactics; allies: 300g
0960 Machine Tools
1000 Miniaturisation
1020 Barbarian invasion - Southern choke exterminated - fear in city!
1040 Computers
1060 Research Laboratory
1080 Mobile Warfare; Gold to Suza: 372g
1120 Robotics
1160 Flight
1200 Radio; Manufacturing Plant
1240 Advanced Flight
1280 Rocketry
1320 Space Flight
1340 APOLLO PROGRAMME
1360 Structural#1; Plastics
1400 Component#2; Atomic Theory
1440 Sturctural#3; Nuclear Fission
1480 Sturctural#5; Nuclear Power
1510 Structural#7; The Laser
1520 Diplo foils Seychelleon Espionage!
1540 Structural#10; Superconductor
1560 Module#2; Fusion Power
1600 13:1,1:1,1,1; Communism
1620 15:1,1:1,1,1 - LAUNCH 1656 expected
1622 Guerilla Warfare
1627 Sneak attack by Luxembourg - bounces off vet Armour & vet Mech Inf
1640 Luxembourg destroyed by repeated Water Poisonings and Stealth Fighter raids
1644 Susa goes the same way
1655 Landing AC


**Green Ink** Well done Tom, I simply could not match your late research rate **/Green Ink **


____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited June 28, 2000).]

[SCG]

oops!! My mind wasn't with me this game. I got off to a slow start, partly because the Seychillion destroyed the Luxembourgers very early and were agressive towards me initially, partly because I got 1 total unit from the huts, and that contributed to the fact that I just couldn't find anything. throw in that I twice narrowly avoided disorder early on for lack of units in the city and then forgetting to grow once size 4 and happiness under control. Finally, I was happily trading with the eskimos but forgot to make contact with them so when they arrived at my doorsteps, they walked right into my city the one turn i had sent my horsie out barb leader chasing, game over... I reloaded that one turn and played out the string for a mediocre (for this game anyway) 1833 landing, albeit a PR for me, even if it doesn't count. I'm still not getting the end game techs in the right order. My first OCC game i discovered fusion power 25 turns after space flight, and since then have had 1 at 27, and most closer to 10-15. Thats plenty of room for improvement there.

diety, 2.42
AC: died -175 BC (1833)
monarchy: -3050
republic: -425
democracy: -- (460)

colossus: -1750
copes: --- (60)
shakes: --- (320)
ikes: --- (760)
darwins: --- (1280)
apollo: --- (1770)

trade: -425, -425, -400

size 12: --- (-100)
size 21: --- (540)

-4000 hmm, gold and whale, non shielded grassland in one choice, ocean in the other - looking for the other specials
-3950 rivered forest, think i may drop anchor now and hope later, New London founded
-3900 looks good, found a whale, can't see the other space
-3550 hut, code of laws, darn had almost finished researching that, warrior
-3500 o right, don't lose beakers like in Civ I (kewl, code of laws )
-3250 hut, NON horseman, someone's nearby (stunting growth for monarchy rush)
-3150 hut, barb horseman (aw, no vet for victory, and he's in the red)
-3100 just my luck, Luxembourg killed by Seychellion, any restarts?
-3050 Monarchy, revolt, Monarchy founded, stunting colossus for size 3
-2850 oops, forgot everyone is out exploring, holding on the verge of 3
-2700 grumble, Sey's land on my forest, growing next turn
-2500 looks like i found luxembourg, lots of roads, no one home
-2400 Writing
-1800 Currency, hey - this looks like a _very_ small actual world map, yep, that was luxembourg's ruins
-1750 Colossus
-1700 size 4, WLTKD
-1550 heh, found Sey city on madagaskar by ending turn on its coal
-1400 Trade, Sey (Masonry, Mapmaking, Iron Working, Alliance)
-975 Literacy, think I'm building a trireme next, i can't find anyone on my continent
-775 Construction
-750 Sey (Mystisism)
-700 hut, mathmatics
-650 hey, a road and irrigation!
-625 peace (tibet)
-500 Republic, revolt
-475 REPUBLIC founded peace, alliance with fiji (100 gp)
-425 hides, beads (undemanded) to Umnak Island - got the caravans backwards... hides and beads to the one demanding gold, gold to the one demanding beads
-400 Philosophy, Astronomy, gold (undemanded) to Gyantse
-375 temple
-325 marketplace, (wheel, horseback riding, pottery, warrior code) fiji, 200 gp (sey), cancel WL (7)
-275 aquaduct
-225 colosseum, WL
-200 fend off barb attack, chase barb leader with lone city unit (FATAL ERROR)
-175 Eskimos land and walk into undefended New London (um, reload?)
---------------------------------------------
never did work through this one properly, even discovered I only had a 70 production post robotics, and scrambled to get it up (overcompensated to avoid famine to 87, and lost 2 planned citizens in the process). Had more diplomacy problems than usual too. I couldn't get AI above enthusiastic, even when the emissary was listed at worshipful, and they quickly fell to uncooperative within a few turns so never could ask for many gifts. I even had a worshipful emmisary dissolve the alliance because i asked for a gift...

*looks down at his signature* yep, still applies

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Ribannah]

OCC #10
Deity
MGE

:= "It's a small world after all, it's a small world after all, it's a small world after all, it's a small, small world!" :=

What is there to say? The key to victory was quick contact with the 3 civs on our continent, so we could ally with all of them, and maintaining a spotless reputation. The start was great as we got both Writing and Code of Laws from the Luxembourgers. A good start can win quite a few turns in OCC . Later on, we could trade with the overseas tribes for a couple of more techs than usual in MGE (no Feudalism though).

================================================== ==============
AC: 1376

Monarchy: -
Republic: -2050
Democracy: -225

Colossus: -1650
Copernicus: -725
Shakespeare: -400
Newton: 80
Darwin: 400
Apollo: 940

Trade routes: -1100, -925, -775

Size 12: -325
Size 21: -100 (size 25 in AD 1)
Size 29: 580

Trade: -1650
Construction: -750
Sanitation: -350
Refrigeration: 60

Automobile: 400
Computers: 720
Space Flight: 920
============================================

-4000 Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial
-3950 Rock of Ages founded by Cassiopeia ... hmmm - world map?
-3900 another Whale
-3600 N-Chariot(h) ... non-unit, so close? Must be SMALL world map ...
-3550 Seychellions, Peace, N-Chariot(h)
-3350 N-Archers(h), traded for Mysticism and Map Making(S), Luxembourgers, traded for Writing and Code of Laws, Ally, 50(h)
-3250 50(h)
-3200 Library
-3150 100(h)
-3100 Gold mined ... Road and irrigation ...
-3050 Tibetians, Peace, gave Mysticism -> Ally(T), Maps
-2900 N-Archers(h)
-2800 N-Chariot(h)
-2650 Literacy, S3
-2550 50(h)
-2400 N-Chariot(h)
-2350 S: "We have Seafaring"
-2050 The Republic, REPUBLIC, di Warriors, Currency(h), 3 techs->L, 25 , 1 tech-, traded for Seafaring(S), 2 techs->S, Ally(S), Maps
-1650 COLOSSUS, Philosophy->Trade, traded for Iron Working(L), 1 tech->L, traded for The Wheel and Horseback Riding(T), 1 tech->T, 50 , traded for Pottery and Warrior Code(S), 1 tech->S, 125
-1550 Temple, We Love , Barb Leader (150)
-1500 S4
-1450 Marketplace, S5
-1400 S6
-1350 Salt, S7
-1300 We Love ends
-1250 Trireme, Banking(h), 1 tech->T,S, 50,100,75
-1200 Eskimos, 50->E for Peace , 4 techs->E, Maps, no Ally , won't trade tech
-1150 Harbor
-1100 Medicine, Salt to Umnak Island (192)
-1050 Bank, L-T at war
-1000 Traded for Polytheism(S), 1,10,5 tech->S,T,L, 100,50,50 , 6 techs->E, traded for Astronomy, Mathematics, Masonry
-975 Gold, Jamaicans, 15 techs->J, Maps, Ally
-925 Beads, Gold to Umnak Island (d,416)
-900 University
-875 University
-850 S8, 2 Barb Legions
-825 Food
-800 4 techs->L,T,S, 150,50,150
-775 Food, Beads to Umnak Island (228)
-750 Food, Construction
-725 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY
-675 Food
-650 Engineering
-625 Food
-600 2 techs->S, 150
-575 Aquaduct
-550 Bridge Building, S9
-525 Theory of Gravity(h)
-500 5,4,2,4 techs->J,T,S,L 50,25,150,- , Maps(J,T,L), 50->E, 3 techs->E, traded for Navigation and Physics
-475 Food
-450 Economics, Invention(h)
-425 Food
-400 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE, We Love
-375 S10, Fijians, 22 techs->F, Maps, Peace
-350 Sanitation, S11, 5 techs->J, 100 , Maps
-325 Sewer System, S12
-300 S13, 1 tech->T,S,L 100,150,50 , Maps(S)
-275 Stock Exchange, S14, 50(h), Barb Legion
-250 S15
-225 Wine, Democracy, DEMOCRACY, S16
-200 S17, 1 tech->S, 100
-175 Food, S18
-150 Gunpowder, S19, 3 techs->F
-125 Food, S20, 6 techs->L, 1 tech->T, 100
-100 S21, 1 tech->S, 50
-75 Food, Metallurgy, S22, 1 tech->S, 50
-50 S23
-25 Food, S24
1 Magnetism, S25, 1 tech->L,T, 50,50 , 50->E , 7 techs->E
(PYRAMIDS - Jamaicans)
20 Food, We Love ends
40 Electricity, Wine to Suva (d,676)
60 Food, Refrigeration, traded for Monarchy(J), 5 techs->J, N-Elephant(h)
80 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE
100 Chemistry, 10,5,5 techs->T,L,S 50,50,- , 6 techs->F, Maps(T,L,F,S)
120 Supermarket
140 Explosives
160 Diplomat, 1 tech->L, 100
180 Steam Engine, 6 techs->E
(GREAT LIBRARY - Jamaicans )
200 Bribed L->N Settlers (696)
220 Railroad, 4 techs->J, Maps
240 Food
260 Industrialization, 1,4,3 techs->T,S,L, 50,25,- , Maps(S,L)
280 Factory
300 The Corporation
320 Food
340 Refining, 3 techs->E, traded for Monotheism(E), 1,6,1 techs->S,T,L 50,-,75 , Maps(T)
360 Oil
380 Steel, disband N-Archers, 1 tech->L, 50
400 DARWIN'S VOYAGE -> Combustion,Automobile, di N-Archers
420 Superhighways, Mass Production, 1 tech->L,S, 50,50
460 Mass Transit, Electronics, di N-Chariot, 1 tech->L,T,S, 25,25,50
480 Power Plant, 1 tech->L, 50
500 Feudalism, We Love , Oil to Suva (597)
520 Food, Chivalry, S26, 50->F, 13 techs->F, traded for Conscription, Maps, 12 techs->J, Maps, gift? -> J end alliance
50->E, 8 techs->E, Maps, no Ally ;(, 1 tech->S,T, 50,25 , di Trireme
540 Food, S27, br L->N Engineers(648)
560 Leadership, S28
580 Food, S29, sold Sewer System
600 Tactics, We Love ends , sold Aquaduct
(LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP - Seychellions )
620 Food, br L->N Engineers (680), sold Temple
640 Machine Tools
660 Food
680 Miniaturization
700 Offshore Platform, 5 techs->L, 50
720 Food, Computers, di N-Chariot
740 Research Lab, Grassland/r into Hills/r, mined -> Hunger=4
760 Flight
800 Radio
840 Advanced Flight, Plains/r into Grassland/r -> Hunger=3
880 Rocketry, br Barb->N Dragoons (102), 2 Barb Dragoons
920 Space Flight
940 APOLLO PROGRAM, Grassland/r into Hills/r, di N-Dragoons
960 S01, Plastics, Hills/r mined -> 65 shields, Hunger=6
1 tech->L, 100 , di N-Chariot
980 S02, di N-Chariot
1000 S03, Atomic Theory, Barbs take Mandeville
1020 C01
1040 C02, Nuclear Fission
1060 S04
1080 S05, Nuclear Power
1100 S06, di N-Settlers
1120 S07, The Laser, di N-Settlers
(WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE - Seychellions)
1140 S08, di Diplomat
1160 S09, Superconductor, di N-Elephant
1180 S10
1200 S11, Fusion Power
1220 S12, traded for Communism(L), 1 tech->L
1240 S13
1260 S14, 50->J, traded for Genetic Engineering(J)
1280 S15
1300 M01
1320 M02, sold Power Plant
1340 M03, LAUNCH the GSS CASSIOPEIA 15-1-1-1-1-1
1342 Nuclear Plant, Mobile Warfare
1343 Barracks
1344 Alpine Troops, Robotics
1346 Manufacturing Plant, Guerilla Warfare
1347 City Walls
1348 Espionage
1349 SDI Defence
1350 Stealth
1351 Airport
1352 Stealth Fighter, Labor Union, di Alpine Troops
1353 SAM Missile Battery, S28
1354 Armor, Recycling, S27
1355 Spy, S26, S break alliance over Rocketry
1357 Environmentalism
1359 Solar Plant, sold Nuclear Plant
1360 Theology
(MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION - Seychellions)
1362 HANGING GARDENS
1363 Amphibious Warfare
1365 THE LIGHTHOUSE
1366 Combined Arms, S Sneak Attack, S Cavalry almost kills vet Armor in fort, Allies come to the aid
1367 S Explorer
1368 MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY
1369 Fundamentalism
1370 S Destroyer
1372 Future Tech 1
1373 ADAM SMITH'S TRADING CO., Peace(S), Space Flight->L, 75 , 1 tech->T, 100
1374 1 tech->L,T, 75,100
1375 Future Tech 2
1376 The "GSS CASSIOPEIA" lands on ALPHA CENTAURI

Score: 356 (46%)

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Scouse Gits]

Stop these sanguinary goblins!!!

Well done Rib - you are showing us how to do it.

__________________
The SGs in concert - and green with envy

[SCG]

Congratulations! Amazing how much difference just a few turns makes early in the Second Millinium AD. I was comparing Ribannah's game to the OCC#9 best. SG's 1516 was only 7 turns behind, and yet 1 1/2 centuries late

Also, there was quite an interesting tech path here, building the university before Cope's and building both before an aquaduct. Heck, she built a harbor and a bank before building the university, and skipped the colosseum altogether, as well as monarchy, although with the techs he got from the AI, so would have I. She practically turned the quick reference table upside down. Its pretty amazing some the techs she got from the AI too - she got to skip a lot of key techs like Astronomy and Physics, and with her internal structures already built by the time she built Shakes, she seems to have been able to make up for starting the main pop explosion later than usual. Getting Automobile with Darwin's must have been nice

One other point of interest is I only see 3 total commodity caravans sent out - was that by design, or was it by necessity? with Umnak Island periodically demanding gold, I found the extra caravans gave me several 1-turn discoveries throughout my post-death continuation, which was a rather nice boost to an otherwise mistake-prone OCC attempt

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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited October 09, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 10-06-2000 07:37 PM Getting Automobile with Darwin's must have been nice

Well, that's what this girl usually does by design, and not too hard to accomplish. It's the most efficient way to use Darwin's Voyage.

quote: One other point of interest is I only see 3 total commodity caravans sent out - was that by design, or was it by necessity?

In MGE it takes much longer before you get another chance to build a commodity caravan - except when you can exploit the Hides bug, of course. IIRC the Eskimos did indeed demand Gold, but we never supplied it.


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire