2001 Players Tourney, Round 1: Group B - Markus (Host), Deity, Hydey, Makeo

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity
I suggest you stick with these unless your game has already started or unless a couple of them are objected to by everyone in a game:

Incremental Rush Buying - OK
Ship Chaining - NO
Gifting cities/units/caravans - NO
Hitting wait so a plane doesn't crash - NO
Formal Strategic Alliances - NO
Continuing to build a wonder after its been built - OK
Tech stealing, Embassies, sabotage - OK
Caraporting - NO
Adjusting city resources during a turn to maximize trade benefits - OK
Building an Airbase to increase production - NO
City/Unit trading/bribing- NO
-----
just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing.

What bugs me the most is that diety gifted hydy a bunch of units so he could attack me. otherwise there is no way he could have taken my city. I looked at my saves and he gave hydy a 5 calvery and 5 engineers. Which without he would never have taken my city. I guess there is no point in complaining since the game is over, but next time people decide the rules don't apply the least they could do is tell everyone else!

[deity]

Markus, they were the rules suggested by cavebear after discussion in another thread and AFTER our game had started. We already had alliances and cavebear said that the original rules were no city bribe/no unit bribe, the rest was up to us. There was little discussion about these extra rules so I for one forgot about them and I believe they were NOT agreed to by our group. If they were then I should not have given you gold when Makeo was attacking you at a critical point, etc etc. Once we had alliances we were locked into the basic rules only.

Anyway, we must continue this game.

The game story:

Markus and I were allied;
Hydey and Makeo were allied;
Makeo attacked Markus way back and maintained war ever since -
currently 1570 AD I think;
Markus thougt he could take them both on with Leo and lots of units and tried to get me involved;
I only gave and lent gold and was technically at war with Hydey by stealing techs - which I gave to Markus to redress the balance of techs he had given me (pretty equal by then);
Markus wars stagnated after he won back Viroconium;
Behind my back he encouraged Hydey to attack my weakly defended northern ports - this is game role playing so I'm NOT complaining.

Hydey launched a big attack and took those ports;
I'm 70% confident I could expell Hydey from my land but when I asked Markus for help I got none;
I had helped Markus out but he was obviously hoping Hydey would wipe me out while he cranked up infrasrtucture and got new techs - Markus is an ally from hell!
Cavalry is the main unit of the day;
So I decided to do a deal with Hydey to SAVE ME FROM HAVING A WAR (I do NOT concede I would lose it);
This deal also helped out Hydey's ally, Makeo who was having a rough time but fighting well in Markus SW;
I'll post a map shortly;
The deal was I let Hydey use my rail to get to Antium - Markus Wonder city;
I gave him Engineers and units as backup;
Hydey took Antium!

Markus wants to retire but I hope his good sportsmanship as shown many a time will prevail. He's still good enough to win this game.

So, the best thing is to continue from here but cancel ALL alliances.

[markusf]

There is no chance in hell i will play this game. I thought no unit gifting etc was allowed. As far as i am concerned you cheated. There is no way hydy would have taken my city had i known you where giving him units. He lost all his units on my city then you gave him more so you could take it. I had 6 alpine troops that defended against 30 some attacking units. i had 23 more of those i could have moved in + 50 conscripts. I didn't give you any units because i didn't have any and b you posted it wouldn't be allowed. You do this every game, soon as your losing you try to twist the rules as much as you can, or make deals that aren't in the spirit of the game. You built the railroad, gifted the units on the same turn so they could move 2 times, hydy was then able to complete the railroad and he moved close to 40 or 50 units along your railroad. I don't even understand how you could possible defend your actions moving engineers 2 times is cheating even if unit gifting is allowed!. Also all you had to do was send out one ship and attack his and it would have been over.

[deity]

Another thing I want to make quite clear Markus is that I don't begrudge you for backstabbing me by getting Hydey to attack me so I don't see why you get upset when I do the same to you?????

The whole civ concept revolves around this sort of thing.

You gotta admit it - we pulled off a good manouver.. I thought you'd appreciate this!

You made a strategic error in the game and paid the price.... it's all in the game.

It's NOT 3 on 1. It's just that at this point you fell on your own sword. I had a temporary truce with my enemy - Hydey, that's all.

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity
Another thing I want to make quite clear Markus is that I don't begrudge you for backstabbing me by getting Hydey to attack me so I don't see why you get upset when I do the same to you?????

The whole civ concept revolves around this sort of thing.

You gotta admit it - we pulled off a good manouver.. I thought you'd appreciate this!

You made a strategic error in the game and paid the price.... it's all in the game.

It's NOT 3 on 1. It's just that at this point you fell on your own sword. I had a temporary truce with my enemy - Hydey, that's all.

strategic error? It was against the rules you POSTED. Hell had i known that you just ignor the rules when they don't suit you i would have played differently to.! As for backstabbing you what are you talking about? he was attacking you the whole time already. I just told him to attack your bigger cities. You cheated admit it.

[deity]

Originally posted by markusf
There is no chance in hell i will play this game. I thought no unit gifting etc was allowed. As far as i am concerned you cheated. There is no way hydy would have taken my city had i known you where giving him units. He lost all his units on my city then you gave him more so you could take it. I had 6 alpine troops that defended against 30 some attacking units. i had 23 more of those i could have moved in + 50 conscripts. I didn't give you any units because i didn't have any and b you posted it wouldn't be allowed. You do this every game, soon as your losing you try to twist the rules as much as you can, or make deals that aren't in the spirit of the game. You built the railroad, gifted the units on the same turn so they could move 2 times, hydy was then able to complete the railroad and he moved close to 40 or 50 units along your railroad. I don't even understand how you could possible defend your actions moving engineers 2 times is cheating even if unit gifting is allowed!. Also all you had to do was send out one ship and attack his and it would have been over.

I absolutely promise you Markus that I gifted Hydey the units BEFORE I could have moved them. Absolutely true!
I was very careful about this cos I knew it was wrong to move tyhem twice in one game turn. Hopefully the saves will show this. The rail system was complete the turn before I ceded the Engineers.

[markusf]

You want me to post screenshots?

1300 AD on my turn. You had 11 caverary 1300 AD mid Germans turn. you have 6 cavelery (all these units drew support from hydy's closest town). hydy then used those units to attack me. If he hadn't used those my city wouldn't have fallen. If moving units 2 times a turn isn't cheating then what is? In all you gifted close to 20 units that moved that way. And after antium fell you gifted 4 conscripts and 1 alpine troop. Again they moved all the way into my land and fortified in antium.

[Bird]

lol, sounds like a great game. Deity, you're on shaky ground, though, if you the quote is accuracte.

[deity]

Hydey is in the far NW;
I'm the Greeks in the North;
Markus is Roman;
Makeo is Aztec (as usual)

[deity]

Originally posted by Bird
lol, sounds like a great game. Deity, you're on shaky ground, though, if you the quote is accuracte.

Cavebear wrote that - I just copied it from the other thread!

[deity]

Originally posted by markusf
You want me to post screenshots?

1300 AD on my turn. You had 11 caverary 1300 AD mid Germans turn. you have 6 cavelery (all these units drew support from hydy's closest town). hydy then used those units to attack me. If he hadn't used those my city wouldn't have fallen. If moving units 2 times a turn isn't cheating then what is? In all you gifted close to 20 units that moved that way. And after antium fell you gifted 4 conscripts and 1 alpine troop. Again they moved all the way into my land and fortified in antium.

I DID gift units - I did NOT move them... there was no need - they were all in towns on the rail.

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity


Cavebear wrote that - I just copied it from the other thread!

just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing


You added that comment!. Whenever i tried to do stuff like city bribing etc you said it was illegal because those where cavebears rules. You can't have it both ways.

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity



I DID gift units - I did NOT move them... there was no need - they were all in towns on the rail.

Some of them where moved 2 times in one turn after you gifted them. others you couldn't do that with. Hydy wasted all his units on my city and then needed more. So you gifted units that where in your cities (about 13 that i can see), the computer then placed them on the nearest square and hydy used them to attack me. Now what exactly is the difference between gifting a unit in a city and moving a unit and gifting it? either way the unit is moved 2 times in a single turn. ie it has to get out of the city, then hydy has to moved it down to my cap to attack.

[deity]

Originally posted by markusf


just a reminder for our group but too late to change the alliance thing


You added that comment!. Whenever i tried to do stuff like city bribing etc you said it was illegal because those where cavebears rules. You can't have it both ways.

Cavebear initially posted no unit or city bribe and the rest was up to us.... the other SUGGESTIONS came later, well after we had alliances.

However you do have a point - there is definitely ambiguity about what our group agreed on and I honestly didn't think about it, particularly when I asked you for unit support. You said no but you didn't say it was NOT allowed. You are just using this now to justify a position.

It's really unfair to use words like 'cheat'.

At worst it's misunderstanding.....

[markusf]

even if unit gifting was allowed(which it wasn't), the way you gifted them definately wouldn't be!. You can't move units 2 times in one turn, or worse yet gift them to someone else while they are moving, so they can use the units to attack.

[deity]

The civ game was designed to gift units. IF they are in a city, of course they pop out! You are splitting hairs about unit moves. If they are anywhere on my rail system it is irrelevant.

You are being very misleadsing here Markus.

I'm happy to play from whatever turn everyone agrees on or as arbitrated by cavebear, if I'm deemed wrong. BUT stop this crap about cheating and two movements etc.. you know it's rubbish.

[J.C.]

This goes to show how important it is to get these straight before you play.. esp in a "points" game & esp. in Civ 2 . I think it would be good to have a list of these somewhere.. handy. & possibly the "defaults" if they are not mentioned before the game starts.

Dog

[Rasputin]

Would be interested in seeing any evidence you hav eof thosae units moving twice Markus, If Deity moved them on his turn then he shouldnt have gifted them till the following turn.. But lets see the eveidence first...

And if you look at my early post in this thread markus, i warned you a 3 way allieance would occur agaisnt you , even if it was an unofficial allainces, you were the best player and the others obviously decided to stop you and the only way to do that was a joint effort...

[deity]

Raz, this was not a 3 way alliance.
It was a strategic move by my civ. I RARELY or NEVER betray an ally unless I have good reason (but it doesn't matter if you do!).

Markus betrayed me first; I caught him out and then I betrayed him.
I only made a truce with Hydey to enable him to attack his enemy, Markus, so I could stave off war, but Germans are not allies at this point and never have been....

I've been very careful in this game to avoid a criticism of a three way gang up. If Markus had been a better ally it would not have happened.

[deity]

What's the difference?
Markus needed 100's of gold earlier in the game (some as a loan, some as a gift) when Makeo attacked him. He needed gold to rush build units! So, what's the diference between that and actually ceding units????? In game terms it still amounts to outside support for a war effort.

[Hydey]

I believe what happened was fair and above board, To my knowledge no units moved twice during a turn, I certainly did not see that happen.
Deity is an honourable man and would not cheat, for that matter Markus and Makeo would not cheat either. I am more then happy for the umpire to make his call on this one.

[markusf]

Originally posted by deity
What's the difference?
Markus needed 100's of gold earlier in the game (some as a loan, some as a gift) when Makeo attacked him. He needed gold to rush build units! So, what's the diference between that and actually ceding units????? In game terms it still amounts to outside support for a war effort.

I only accepted 300 gold the whole game and i gave it back the next turn. you never gifted me any gold, although you gave me some because of the caravan thing. IE they where moving 3-10 squares a turn over mountains and hills with no road and getting double to triple what mine where getting.(now thats bizzare)

There is a big difference between giving someone units, and giving them cash. What you did is you gifted pretty much your whole army to hydy in one turn after i destroyed his and then you attacked. You gifted them while they where still in the city. I was under the assumption it wasn't allowed, not only that i asked you repeadily if that is what you where doing because things just weren't adding up, there was just no way he could move that many units to your landmass in so little time. But you ignored me and never answered. Had i known i would have moved more of my 70 defensive units into my cap. hydy lost 30 units on 6 units.

here are some of the saves
http://64.180.52.105/game/

[cavebear]

Do I have to jump into this yet, or is it still settlable among you all?

I can offer a few thoughts:

1. The rules were deliberately vague so that different groups could choose whether their games would be lethal or polite, bloodlust or building, as suited them. The last thing I wanted to have to do was to provide a horribly long list of "Do's and Don'ts". Everyone complains about that, and the games become either overly-limiting for most players or grounds for lawyer-wannabees.

2. I would have thought that such experienced players would have settled on most rules beforehand. You guys play at the top level routinely, none of these actions should have been a surprise. The basic rule is "If the software intends a possibility, it is OK unless the group has decided against it beforehand". I did some of that by not permitting city/unit bribing, for example (or whatever I said when it all started).

3. I will be glad to look at a few specific game files for particular events in order to answer specific questions, especially when it would require players to cheat to figure out the answers.

4. I will answer one matter, at least, right now. Gifting a unit (or units) is not
specifically illegal (unless there is proof of that having been made so by group consensus). If gifting a city unit places the unit outside the city (which of course it must), that can't be considered a "move" by the gifting player. If the unit was moved first (as evidenced from its position in the previous game file) that is generally understood as wrong in any game and should not have been done.

5. Some of the objections I have seen fall into the category of "I didn't expect you to do that". Sorry, but this *is* a tournament, anyone can be as double-dealing and as treacherous as they want (or at least can get away with). It is OK to try and save your hide or improve your position by betraying an ally. The penalties for that may come later, or it may be a game-winning event. But it isn't ever illegal.

6. A game at a true impasse can be settled by a pronouncment "on high" (me, in this case), or by player agreements to repair the damage at the current turn, or by reverting to a previous turn by agreement. I will do the first if required (as best I can, and possibly satisfying no one), but I would prefer one of the other two choices. In the case of the latter two options, I can serve as a mediator if that will help. Players can email me suggestions privately at cavebear@erols.com or post them here.

Hope this helps...

cavebear

[deity]

OK, I'll try not to keep responding cos it will go on forever!
Let me just say that Markus does exagerate, as we all know, and often omits certain facts

Anyway, the good thing is we can have this debate and still be civ mates.

I spoke to Makeo and Hydey and they both fully support what happened in the game as fair and legitimate despite confusion over game rules. Thus, the consensus of the players in the game is to move on from where we are and appeal to Markus to play on and kick ass! That low-down, dirty backstabbing SOB deity......

[arii]

Markus, I told you to kill players early in the game if you have the opportunity. They always come back to stab you if you don't.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by deity
Raz, this was not a 3 way alliance.
It was a strategic move by my civ. I RARELY or NEVER betray an ally unless I have good reason (but it doesn't matter if you do!).

Markus betrayed me first; I caught him out and then I betrayed him.
I only made a truce with Hydey to enable him to attack his enemy, Markus, so I could stave off war, but Germans are not allies at this point and never have been....

I've been very careful in this game to avoid a criticism of a three way gang up. If Markus had been a better ally it would not have happened.

It was a 3 way allaince of sorts as i said official or unaffocial, Markus was suddenly faced with 3 opponents, Makeo was fighitnig him all game, then you giving Hydey your units menas you joined the war... >> I would like to know how gifiting your army to Hydey means "saved your civ" surely it is only a temporary repreave, hydey must eventually turn on you!!! So what you did was sell out your ally for a small gain for yuorself.

You mention markus doing backstabbing first, i didnt see that so i guess the allaince was on shaky ground any way, but it still holds that you cant possible win from here due to the fact Hydey now has your army and should (unless he is crazy) take you out and face makeo alone...

But i dont think you cheated, i just think you used a tactic that surprises markus and i wil hav eto watch you cloese rin futrure

[deity]

I made it bold in the original post so you wouldn't miss it Raz!

I can assure you that I would NOT betray an ally first. I require them to make a mistake against me BEFORE I'd engage in such a thing (up until the Space Age).

I'm sure Makeo and Hydey would attest to that because my alliance with Markus was a big problem for them. But it was Markus who brought our alliance down by getting Hydey to attack me.

I operate on the basis of in-game cause and effect, NOT on the whims of icq deals etc. I see civ as a role playing game and prefer the diplo style game but I realise some players prefer to operate on the basis of game mechanics, which is fair enough too.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by deity
I made it bold in the original post so you wouldn't miss it Raz!

Yes i saw that but didnt see any proof of the claim, and besides that Hydey was alreasy at war with you , he should have been attacking your northern ports

[deity]

Originally posted by Rasputin

Yes i saw that but didnt see any proof of the claim, and besides that Hydey was alreasy at war with you , he should have been attacking your northern ports

No one is questioning Hydey's motives. Of course he should be attacking but Markus specifically urged Hydey to attack me where he knew I was weak.

My point is that I'm desperately trying to maintain my spotless rep!!!

AND trying to comvince you that I would not normally betray an ally UNLESS they asked for it!

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by deity
No one is questioning Hydey's motives. Of course he should be attacking but Markus specifically urged Hydey to attack me where he knew I was weak.

Evidence ??

My point is that I'm desperately trying to maintain my spotless rep!!!

I know better

AND trying to comvince you that I would not normally betray an ally UNLESS they asked for it!

i not sure that getting hydey to attack you is ASKING for it !!! Giving Hydey units or building a railroad for him would be asking for it, but simply asking an enemy to attack you is not breaking Alliance , IMHO