Paratroopers In Civ 3?

Alex 14 · July 14, 2001, 23:50

Paratroopers were an excellent unit in Civ 2, do you think they should be returned in Civ 3?

Inverse Icarus · July 15, 2001, 00:30

yes. i think paratroopers should be in civ 3, but changed.

im SURE this wont happen, but wish it was like you loaded up a chopper with a paratrooper unit and deployed it like that.

overall, i think the paratrooper's distance was a bit too far. what was it... 10 tiles?

i think it should be more like 5.

Zanzin · July 15, 2001, 01:17

paratroopers, yes, but only as a "Special Forces" type unit. Its like in real life they can airdrop a whole division (10,000 men) into a city - or can they? I don't know.

Alex 14 · July 15, 2001, 03:55

Yeah, it was 10 tiles, but thats an ok distance.

NeoBlade · July 15, 2001, 04:32

If I'm right the 42nd airborne division can go anywhere in the world,for the record.Also,paratroopers should definately have special forces statuts,they've always been considered the elites of the army,they're like the rangers and seals.(note,in my opinion the Marines aren't really a top tier special force,just a really good standard one.)

Also,yeah,they can drop a whole division and supplys.

Grumbold · July 15, 2001, 12:24

I like paratroops but do not want to see the nuke/paradrop strategy maintained. If nukes destroy cities or make the tiles radioactive so you cannot enter them immediately then I will be quite happy to see the return of the paratrooper.

Kestrel · July 15, 2001, 23:39

Paratroopers should also be likely to suffer a % incapacity when jumping (or be lost altogether) especially in the early days of airborne warfare, when the techniques associated with it are less than refined.

For example, look at some of the casualty rates of paratroopers deployed in WW 2 (on both sides)

H Tower · July 16, 2001, 01:51

i definitely think that paratroopers should be in civ3. i agree with the fact that the range should be shortened, in a regular game of civ2, it was possible to drop paratroopers from england into africa. if someone decides to build a european scenario, it should be easy enough to change the range they have to reflect the map.
Neobalde: i wasn't aware there was a 42nd airborne division. do you mean the us 82 airborne? or are you talking about another country's 42 airborne?
i like uber's idea of using helicopters to deliver units to infantry units to the battle field but i'd like to be able to see them carry any infantry, not just paratroops. maybe giving regular infantry a readiness penalty for being carried. of course then they'd need to have at least two kinds of helicopters, an attack version and a transport version.

July 16, 2001, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex 14
Paratroopers were an excellent unit in Civ 2, do you think they should be returned in Civ 3?

Yes

July 16, 2001, 03:23

Quote:

Originally posted by NeoBlade
If I'm right the 42nd airborne division can go anywhere in the world,for the record.Also, paratroopers should definitely have special forces statutes, they've always been considered the elite of the army, they're like the rangers and seals. (note,in my opinion the Marines aren't really a top tier special force, just a really good standard one.)

Also,yeah,they can drop a whole division and supply.

We only have two division. The 82nd and 101st. I have a young friend who was discharge from the 101 last Dec. 2000. I will call and ask if they are elite.

Navy=Seals, very elite.

Marine=Force Recon and Fast Co., very elite. Another friend of mine was serving in Fast Co., was sent to Camp Pendleton, call me Sunday and said he was leaving Wed. morning. Bush Sr. call the War off on Tues. night. Fast Co. is a anti-terrorist unit, trained in house to house fighting. Some of our English friends might remember them. They are the Marines that had the Land Mines/Automatic Machine Guns in their bags at London Airport in 1991. Those Marines were in the same unit as my friend was.

Air Force=ParaRescue, very elite. Air Commando? A unit from the 60s, don't know if they are still around.

Army=Special Forces, very elite. Ranger? Airborne?

Eternal · July 16, 2001, 03:57

Of course there will be paratroopers, but there has to has to has to be some kind of air transport units that are used up when you send them, and replenished next turn. Ideally range would increase over time, though you should be able to edit it yourself of course.

And yes I believe pretty much any airborne unit in any army (NATO) at least, was considered elite. There's just something elite about suicide missions.

Deathwalker · July 16, 2001, 06:57

Personally I really like the paratroops and think they should be kept in the game.

Adm.Naismith · July 16, 2001, 07:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
I like paratroops but do not want to see the nuke/paradrop strategy maintained. If nukes destroy cities or make the tiles radioactive so you cannot enter them immediately then I will be quite happy to see the return of the paratrooper.

Good point Grumbold! But that was probably left for fitting a strategical role for them in game.

The use of paratroopers in real wars has been more about deploying them back enemy lines, to cut communication, transport, main road/railroad points, bridges, etc.

They are light infantry, quick to deploy to make a blitz, too weak to sustain a main attack by heavy/mechanized infantry and tanks.

In Civ2 terms they aren't really useful in that role, because resupply and communication lines aren't managed, bridges doesn't count very much and so on.
So far Firaxis find a better "natural niche" where to fit them, I'll like Paratroopers to stay, with Marines and... Alpine Troops!

(Lat minute note: previus sentence is an inside joke about old post on relevance of Alpine troops in World history: never mind)

Recurve · July 16, 2001, 08:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
The use of paratroopers in real wars has been more about deploying them back enemy lines, to cut communication, transport, main road/railroad points, bridges, etc.

So what about Crete in WW2? We were kicked off the place in a couple of days (although the Germans lost half their contingent).

Anyhow, I am also in favour of units being weakened to a % on landing (with a 10%+ chance of death), and of course there MUST be an air unit for delivering these chaps (paradropping from one of your own cities is nonsensical).

A glider unit would be nice for getting larger units behind the lines.

Adm.Naismith · July 16, 2001, 08:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Recurve
So what about Crete in WW2? We were kicked off the place in a couple of days (although the Germans lost half their contingent).

Crete was the last main assault that paratroopers win, mostly because German had full control of Air and Royal Navy lost too many ship to bring reinforce. German had great faith in paratroopers at start of WWII, as they conquer main Belgium fortress with a great attack. After Crete they realize that they are asking too much from a dedicated, specialized troop.

AFAIK, every main battle the paratroopers fight from then was as I described: beyond enemy lines or flanking main ground division. That doesn't mean they don't fight heroic battles, simply they can't have weapons heavy enough to bring a main attack and resist a strong counterattack.
Normandia, "Last bridge" (Remagen IIRR) campaign... please help me mentioning one where a paratroopers unit fight and win alone.

Quote:

Anyhow, I am also in favour of units being weakened to a % on landing (with a 10%+ chance of death)

If I remeber well a paratroop unit get weakened if launch and attack same turn. May be I'm confusing with SMAC drop unit

Quote:

A glider unit would be nice for getting larger units behind the lines.

Gliders as troop transport lasted for least than 10 years, becoming obsolete after development of tactical STOL (Short Take Off and Landing) transport and medium/large helicopters.

IMHO Civ doesn't need any kind of tactical transport unit, because the micromanagement will be fine in a dedicated wargame, while Civ isn't. Only transport ships have a place, but should be tuned a bit.

Recurve · July 16, 2001, 14:08

Well, Remagen was a serious piece of bad planning (wasn't it)?!?

Adm.Naismith · July 16, 2001, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Recurve
Well, Remagen was a serious piece of bad planning (wasn't it)?!?

Exactly! It was a good demonstration of paratroopers unable to keep a position until ground troops and tanks, slowed down by german troops resistance, bring reinforcement.

Once again: it wasn't fault of paratroopers, simply is not their task to defense for long.
But we are now too much OT. Please feel free to send me a Private Mail if you like to continue our chatting about WWII

Inverse Icarus · July 16, 2001, 17:37

ive always wanted an AIR transport unit in civ, but i never got one.

i even TRIED to make one in a scenario, but when u click "air" it greys out "carries".

if a chopper could hold 2 infantry, or 1 tank, thad be fun

Eternal · July 17, 2001, 00:16

The Soviets took a lot of care equipping their airborne units. They had developed all kinds of light-weight APCs, Tanks, and Self Propelled guns for special use with airborne troops. For the most part this equipment had to be airlifted, which required either capturing or building an airfield, but it gave the paratroops a lot of striking power.

Soviet airborne doctrine was to drop approximately 10 days ahead of the main advance at vital C3 and Supply areas.

Alex 14 · July 17, 2001, 02:07

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
ive always wanted an AIR transport unit in civ, but i never got one.

i even TRIED to make one in a scenario, but when u click "air" it greys out "carries".

if a chopper could hold 2 infantry, or 1 tank, thad be fun

Yeah, civ needs air transport units, or at least one.

Recurve · July 17, 2001, 05:46

Too right!

I'd like two types of chopper (troop transport and attack), transport aircraft which could deliver equipment to airfields (and paratroops could drop from) and yes, a glider unit which will give you the edge until you develop the transport aircraft.

There’s no reason for limiting choice to sea transport only.

Eternal · July 17, 2001, 19:08

And because gliders were death traps, they should have like half a chance of destroying the unit, or it should automatically take away half the units hit points.

Of course none of that will be in Civ 3. I don't expect them to have any air transports, the lazy jerks that they are.

Inverse Icarus · July 17, 2001, 20:55

amen brother.