Great Wall is way too powerful: change it like this

Alexander's Horse · July 16, 2001, 03:35

Make it so Great Wall puts walls in all your cities BUT these walls are just normal walls that you can sell or can be brought down by sabotage.

In multiplayer against good opponents, building GW is game over. See this thread for details:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...815#post375815

Alex 14 · July 16, 2001, 04:03

In Civ 3, you will be abel to actually place the Great Wall on to the map. The Great Wall will physicly stretch on the outside of several of your cities keeping civs away from your cities.

Source: Civ Fanatics

P.s: This will also apply to the Great Canal.

Rasputin · July 16, 2001, 05:22

so does that mean you no longer get walls in each city, hmm interestign concept,, seems to me that GW wont be as valuable as itused to be if it only covers a few citys , just walk around the wall as in WW2 Maginot line

Adm.Naismith · July 16, 2001, 06:06

If the Wall will be coast-to-coast, you must go around it by sea, I suppose.
I have no idea if it will enhance the owner defense in some other way. I agree it seems a main twist over Civ II Wonder feature. Let's hope it doesn't look floating over mountain as roads an rivers do in available screenshots

Urban Ranger · July 16, 2001, 06:18

Yet more mindless "improvements" from the Horse.

Alexander's Horse · July 16, 2001, 08:40

I would love to make your civ bendover

Actually this thread was a minor troll on my Mp friends, who happen to be amongst the best civ players in the world.

Rasputin · July 16, 2001, 11:24

thanks Horse ... oh !! you werent talking about me >???

Provost Harrison · July 16, 2001, 11:45

I quite like the idea of the Great Wall and the fact that it will significantly hinder civs trying to cross it...

JellyDonut · July 16, 2001, 22:01

In civ2, emissaries hesitate to declare war because of the Great Wall even after it expires!

War4ever · July 17, 2001, 00:46

Horse.....would the walls move forward with the increasing size of your empire? after all, China's borders have changed significantly over the years

tniem · July 17, 2001, 00:56

My problem with the Great Wall being used to keep enemies out is that the actual wall was found nearly impossible to do so.

The wall was so long that it was impossible for the Chinese empires to keep a large enough force on the wall to keep invaders out. Not only that since the wall is not complete, an invading army could simply walk around it.

I have heard that the practical use for the wall was to keep invaders in China. What would happen is if an invader lost a battle or even if he won and was returning home with bounty, a Chinese army could chase him down and catch him at the wall. At this point the army would have to turn and fight. Thus the wall kept people from invading based on the idea if you lost the battle you would have to fight again at the wall. Not necessarily something you wanted to do. And as such the Wall's forced peace treaties may not be that bad of a reward.

Jeje2 · July 17, 2001, 02:10

... making it possible to destoy anothers Secrect projets?
This way you just blow it off the map (and commit an atrocity)

It would be very interesting when one has to also protect the pyramids or the great Buddha statues.

War4ever · July 17, 2001, 02:24

The main purpose of the Wall was to keep the people from leaving China, the fact that it could help militarily as well was secondary by design.

JeJe.... for blowing up secret projects , i am all for it but it better have an effect on the culture and not just on your rep

Alex 14 · July 17, 2001, 05:11

Hey is that a joke? Either way its damn funny.

Dida · July 18, 2001, 02:47

Quote:

Originally posted by tniem
My problem with the Great Wall being used to keep enemies out is that the actual wall was found nearly impossible to do so.

The wall was so long that it was impossible for the Chinese empires to keep a large enough force on the wall to keep invaders out. Not only that since the wall is not complete, an invading army could simply walk around it.

I have heard that the practical use for the wall was to keep invaders in China. What would happen is if an invader lost a battle or even if he won and was returning home with bounty, a Chinese army could chase him down and catch him at the wall. At this point the army would have to turn and fight. Thus the wall kept people from invading based on the idea if you lost the battle you would have to fight again at the wall. Not necessarily something you wanted to do. And as such the Wall's forced peace treaties may not be that bad of a reward.

It's impossible for any invader to walk around Great Wall, because it stretchs from the east coast all the way to the very west end of China.
Great Wall was built to keep invaders out, not in. no doubt about that.

tniem · July 18, 2001, 03:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Dida
It's impossible for any invader to walk around Great Wall, because it stretchs from the east coast all the way to the very west end of China.
Great Wall was built to keep invaders out, not in. no doubt about that.

The problem with this thought is that for most of the walls history it was not complete. The builders would build one large stretch and then stop. A couple hundred years later they would add another stretch. It wasn't until the 1400s that they finally completed the stupid wall and then found it was not even able to defend the nation.

From the History Channel:

Quote:

Great Wall of China

Fortifications winding c.1,500 mi (2,400 km) across N China from Gansu prov. to the Yellow Sea. It is an amalgamation of many walls, first united (3d cent. B.C.) by the Ch'in dynasty. The present form dates substantially from the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) and averages 25 ft (7.6 m) in height. Successive invasions of China by northern nomads proved the wall to be of little military utility.

As I understand, the 25 ft height was not enough to keep invaders from simply climbing the walls when no one was around or bribing guards to let them in. Now crossing the wall took time, but it was not hard. Invaders could easily enter China from the north. It was getting out that proved to be harder. If you lost a battle and were chased north, a Chinese army could follow in pursuit while another army sat in wait at the wall. You were trapped. So the wall was easy to get through, it was leaving that was the problem.

Dida · July 18, 2001, 10:32

On that you are right, the Great Wall isn't too useful in keeping the enemy out. But it give people a sense of security, and easy deployment of troops. (sometimes, they use the great wall to quickly transport troops to the hot spots).

death_head · July 18, 2001, 12:14

In response to the Maginot line comment, I would just like to point out that the French were morons for just sitting there.

HEY! YOU! COME ATTACK THE WALL! HEY WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING! YOU CAN'T GO AROUND THAT WAY IT'S OFF LIMITS!

The great wall helps because you can sort of create a choke, which is a good thing, not a bad one.

Alexander's Horse · July 18, 2001, 18:55

I heard the real purpose of the Great Wall was to make it difficult for raiders to take loot out.

colossus · July 18, 2001, 22:47

I am always thinking that the Great Wall was intended to prevent small bands of barbarians(say, 30) from raiding North China. Without the Wall, it would be impossible to protect the agricultural lives of North China, who would be subjected to constant, small scale raidings throughout the year. Large scale invasion is another matter. I don't think there were any major invasions stopped by the Wall, not even once. Major invasions had to be averted by a combination of politics, bribery and military power.

July 18, 2001, 23:17

This is a game. Leave the Wall as is.

TVA22 · July 19, 2001, 00:09

Collossus is correct, the Great Wall was built to repell small bands of raiders, particularly ones on horseback. It was also used as a transportation system, for troop deployment yes, but even moreso to send information back and fourth across the empire swiftly. It's not like the Chinese were dumb, and actually believed the wall would keep a determined army from invading, since a single battering ram could, given the time, breach the Wall.
Also, I have actually been over to China to see the Great Wall in person, and it is an impressive sight to behold, and the disrespectful references to the Chinese people and the "stupid wall" in this thread are really quite irritating, and it would do some people a lot of good to remember once in a while, the world is a lot bigger, and a lot older than the European civilizations who have stollen the spotlight in the last few centuries.

Provost Harrison · July 19, 2001, 07:00

What we have to remember is that this is a game. We have the chance to lay down the great wall, which is a pretty impressive creation. A sensible role would be what it requires, and a fun one...there is obviously going to be an associated increase in cultural status...

Dida · July 19, 2001, 14:22

ok, my question is, what does physically laying down the great wall do? does it make other Civs impossible to pass the wall? If you have long border with the other guy, can the great wall make sure it can cut off all the border? (in reality, it does). if it can do so, than it's pretty neat. if the guy is always invading you, and on your ass, you can build the wall and block him outl
Someone mention Grand Canal would work the same. so if we have a big city on top of a hill, with lots of production, we can build ship in this city, and then sail them out to sea?

Urban Ranger · July 20, 2001, 00:27

The Great Wall is just this gigantic fortification that starts at the sea and goes a long way to the west, snaking around in mountain ranges. Like all fortifications, it can be breached. Also like all fortifications, it's meant to give the defenders as much advantages as possible over the attackers. The Manchus wouldn't have gotten into China, or at least would take them a lot longer, if not for a Chinese officer opening the gate at one of the forts.

Urban Ranger · July 20, 2001, 00:29

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
Horse.....would the walls move forward with the increasing size of your empire? after all, China's borders have changed significantly over the years

That's why the Great Wall was rebuilt over the centuries. The Great Wall we see today was completed during the Ming dynasty.

Adm.Naismith · July 20, 2001, 05:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Dida
Someone mention Grand Canal would work the same. so if we have a big city on top of a hill, with lots of production, we can build ship in this city, and then sail them out to sea?

AFAIK, Grand Canal was mentioned as a way to connect two different seas, crossing some tiles of a continent. It's not meant to be a way to connect an inland town to the shore.

Of course, as for Great Wall effect in game you ask, I think only God and Firaxis designer really know (and I'm not 100% sure for the latter

).

Praying and Asking For A Sign could still be the best bet for an answer.

Recurve · July 20, 2001, 11:13

As map sizes will be larger and more crowded, why not provide 2 Grand Canal Wonders?

death_head · July 20, 2001, 13:09

Now that would be cool...it can't be that bad to have two Wonders...

tniem · July 20, 2001, 15:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Recurve
As map sizes will be larger and more crowded, why not provide 2 Grand Canal Wonders?

Or since I am positive that Firaxis has confirmed minor wonders that every civ can build make em that. And have a possible one major wonder that gives some type of bonus.