My Review of Civ 3

[campmajor!]

Yin, unless you had the privilege to really play civ3 instead of dreaming about it, don't you think it's a little premature to post a review on it?

This week of silence must have been hard on you. You probably used all your frustration caused by not-posting on Poly to write this masterpiece.

Though I think this post was premature, it must admit it is thorough. If you would just wait till the release and then post such a review I would be impressed!

[Ari Rahikkala]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith


I beg your pardon sir, credit for what?

Actually my post was a message for MarkG, but not private, because I want him to answer in a way that will please the public .

[Flandrien]

Great review, but I am missing something.

Where is multiplaying ?

[yin26]

EVC, Alexander's Horse, Sir David

...and Yin? Something is wrong. Terribly wrong...

Cyber:

Face it, I am your evil twin. I speak your deepest, most suppressed thoughts...and then Jeje and Adm.Naismith polish them up and make sense out of them. Together, we are the Evil Quadratic Equation. You might fight membership, but you are one of us, Dark Child. One...of...the...*UNBelievers!*

Yin, unless you had the privilege to really play civ3 instead of dreaming about it, don't you think it's a little premature to post a review on it?

I am free from the bonds of time that keep mere mortals horribly trapped in the "Now." How do you think I predicted Sim-Golf? Why, I played it TWO Octobers ago (what YOU might have called 'two Octobers ago,' that is) and visited Sid in a dream. I said "DON'T make Sim Golf." Unfortunately, he was dreaming about one day seeing a site update and only heard: "MAKE Sim Golf." By the time I realized the error, I discovered I'd have to go back to the past of a past the wasn't meant to be the future unless the present had been left alone to the natural progression of a past that I had already let pass according to my own vision of a future based on a present that I had hoped would be changed by my passed actions. In other words, I let it slide.

[yin26]

Great review, but I am missing something.

Where is multiplaying ?

Yes, I realize I need to go back and add that. Any helpful ideas for how MP could go horribly wrong?

[Robert Plomp]

Face it, I am your evil twin. I speak your deepest, most suppressed thoughts...and then Jeje and Adm.Naismith polish them up and make sense out of them. Together, we are the Evil Quadratic Equation. You might fight membership, but you are one of us, Dark Child. One...of...the...*UNBelievers!*

Hmmmmm........
Markos, can you make me President of the Official Apolyton Optimistic Civers Club (OfAOpCiClu) ?

Otherwise Yin's evil forces will continue and try to make me one
of them

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by yin26
Face it, I am your evil twin. I speak your deepest, most suppressed thoughts...and then Jeje and Adm.Naismith polish them up and make sense out of them. Together, we are the Evil Quadratic Equation. You might fight membership, but you are one of us, Dark Child. One...of...the...*UNBelievers!*

Wait Yin! What Evil Quadratic Equation I should be part of?

I'm a kind and sweet father of two, I can't be part of any "Evil" thing, you know 0:-)

Don't mentioning mathematics was my most hated schoolastic discipline, more years ago then I like to remember...

[Robert Plomp]

Yin's club is breaking in pieces

[yin26]

Don't worry. Adm.Naismith is just trying to lull you into a false sense of security. The man is a math GENIUS, as we all know...in fact, he predicted to the second how long it would take to make you a full member of the E4.

[Colon™]

Apart from the fact that Yin's review was plain amusing to read, I think it was constructive. It appears to me that Yin thought out really well what could go wrong with the new features and signals on what to pay attention on. (maybe you should send it to Firaxis?)

Better write something like this before the game is finished than after, when the damage is already done.

[yin26]

Better write something like this before the game is finished than after, when the damage is already done.

With tears in my eyes, I thank that man. Just when I am ready to pack up my bags and quit this whole "Yin-thang," Colon comes along and expresses perfectly my motives. By the way, mailing this to Firaxis would only ensure an early release.

O.K. Multiplayer section has been added to the bottom of the review. It was a stunning turn of events, actually. I'm curious if you guys buy their official reply?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Colon
Apart from the fact that Yin's review was plain amusing to read, I think it was constructive. It appears to me that Yin thought out really well what could go wrong with the new features and signals on what to pay attention on. (maybe you should send it to Firaxis?)

Better write something like this before the game is finished than after, when the damage is already done.

Exactly my point. I agree that sometime too much early criticism on Civ III is disturbing, and not every day I can take it with lightheart.

That said, Firaxis Team can freely post its point of view, and without give away industrial secrets, tell us with all the facts and figures they surely have why Yin and every one else have wrong negative feel.

"Game development is going all well" is hardly a more credible post than Yin fantasy preview; but a complete vacuum can't do anything to help any fan to breath optimism...

[Robert Plomp]

good you added that part to the bottom.
it makes the preview look even more silly
Otherwise I would be afraid people would take it for serious.....

Colon, I think critics are allways ok, but yin isn't voicing criticism, he's just......... hmmmm........ crying like a baby.
Critics come after you actually play the game. How can you voice an opinion about something you haven't seen or played or whatever ? It makes no sence.

I am ready to pack up my bags and quit this whole "Yin-thang,"

please do quit it.
All you're creating is a negative environment around civ3 !
If a game gets a negative image it's hard to get rid of it.
Like CtP2 couldn't do any good after CtP's release.

Eventhough I respect your opinion I very disrespect the very overhyped way you make civ3 look like a moron of a game.

[Robert Plomp]

Game development is going all well" is hardly a more credible post than Yin fantasy preview; but a complete vacuum can't do anything to help any fan to breath optimism...

Firaxis is a professional company, they're not forum-kiddies that lurk around here all day to provide 1% of their possible customers with useless information like "Developing is going great" etc. etc.

Of course from our point of view that's very valuable information. To them and 99% of their customers it's a waste of time they could spend on civ3 developing.

[yin26]

Yes, I took a more obviously joking tone in the multiplayer part in case people (like?) can't see the satire. Colon and others understand it perfectly, however. EVERYTHING I have said in there is quite possibly going to happen (except for the 'multi-layer' thing, which is just plain funny ). How do I know? Because Firaxis has done absolutely NOTHING to make sure we know any details to the contrary. But I guess I'd better state this boring thing again:

YIN DISCLAIMER:

"I, Yin, being of sound mind and body, hereby publically state that I hope Civ 3 is the best damn game ever, and I hope that more people come to realize that my criticisms are meant to poke fun at our situation, which currently is one of being left absolutely in the dark about a bunch of features that, while promising, promise just as many opportunities for disaster...a disaster that the gaming community itself might help to avoid IF it were ever consulted. That is all."

Should I put that in my signature?

[yin26]

Of course from our point of view that's very valuable information.

Actually, I think his point is that such statements are NOT credible, anymore than my 'review.' See?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Firaxis is a professional company, they're not forum-kiddies that lurk around here all day to provide 1% of their possible customers with useless information like "Developing is going great" etc. etc.

Of course from our point of view that's very valuable information. To them and 99% of their customers it's a waste of time they could spend on civ3 developing.

Cyber, don't take this as a personal war against you: it's not, full stop.

Sometime some of us are bitter than usual, and post a bit over any legitim criticism, I already agree on this.

Once again, keeping customer in touch (not by meaningless info, but at least by official site) is a very common duty by any professional company, in this days of Internet channel use.

In my company we have programmers crying they don't care of milestones, deadlines, Gantt diagrams, Project Reports and so on.
Guess what? We have Project Managers that keep internal customers informed (and also do many others thing, but that's not relevant here).
Firaxis have some people for P.R. duty and Web site management, AFAIK not the same people directly involved in game development.
Firaxis chose of not comment here, nor keep official site updated as promised.
Some meaning info every months is not unrealistic at this (officially mentioned) state of development, nor a time killer.
Ok, that's all. You can agree or disagree, I really can't add anything to this debate without repeating myself, without any hope to narrow the distance between our different points of view.
Long life

[splangy]

Originally posted by yin26


Now THAT'S funny! By the way, Splangy, no need to quote my ENTIRE post, right?

whats so god damned funny about it, do you have a problom with me expressing my positive (gee what a change!) beleifs? becouse if you do just tell me.

[Robert Plomp]

I do not take it personal.
But there should be *someone* that voices some optimistic sound.....

Yes yin, put that in your sig

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by yin26
YIN DISCLAIMER:

"I, Yin, being of sound mind and body, hereby publically state that I hope Civ 3 is the best damn game ever, and I hope that more people come to realize that my criticisms are meant to poke fun at our situation, which currently is one of being left absolutely in the dark about a bunch of features that, while promising, promise just as many opportunities for disaster...a disaster that the gaming community itself might help to avoid IF it were ever consulted. That is all."

Should I put that in my signature?

A bit long, but if it can help... please write it

May be truly, "blind" optimistic poster should follow your path with a signature like (forgive my english mistake):

"I, INSERT-NAME-HERE, being of sound mind and body, hereby publically state that I know Civ 3 can still fail to become the best damn game ever, and I hope that more people come to realize that my wholehearty support is meant to give some hopes at people suffering for our situation, which currently is one of being left absolutely in the dark about a bunch of features that, while mistakenly interpreted from someone as opportunities for a disaster, promise just as many enjoyment for all player community...an enjoyment that the gaming community itself might had greatly reduced IF it were ever consulted and then deprived by the sheer surprise given by the Greatest Civ Game Secret Features. That is all."

[Robert Plomp]

I think there are no blind optimistic posters overhere,
but if I notice one I'll redirect them to your sig

[Colon™]

Yin, I’m glad I made you happy. Don’t quit either, criticism is more interesting than idolatry.

I’ve the impression you burned yourself on SMAC or CTP, correct?

Cybershy, I’m a rather irregular reader and poster of this forum but I don’t believe he’s creating a negative environment and it’s better to have scepticism around(even when its overdone) than the hype preceding SMAC and CTP.

[Robert Plomp]

pherhaps that's right.
If the expections are too high, people will always be disapointed when the game is released.


hmmmmmm thinking about it again....
yin, you've been in contact with Firaxis much, aren't you.
pherhaps they've asked you to spread some negative feelings around this game so the expectations wouldn't grow too high.... didn't they ?

they learned from the hyped smac, and for sure CtP lanches....

hmmmm, clever company, clever yin.
how much will I get for giving you more opportunities to voice your negative opinion

[MarkG]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Markos, can you make me President of the Official Apolyton Optimistic Civers Club (OfAOpCiClu) ?

you need to do a similar breakthrough in the science of posting

[death_head]

I should be President of the Apathetic posters...

[Robert Plomp]

you need to do a similar breakthrough in the science of posting

hey, my anti-pessimistic way of posting is a breakthrough !
There's nobody that's more anti-pessimistic then I am

I'll download Civ3 from an illegal server asap and write a very positive review about it like I did with ToT asap.
I mean, if I would write a positive preview like yin did it wouldn't really make sence.... would it ?

[tniem]

Originally posted by splangy
whats so god damned funny about it, do you have a problom with me expressing my positive (gee what a change!) beleifs? becouse if you do just tell me.

I think he is basically saying that having faith in any gaming company is kind of, well, fruitless. Firaxis has in the past stopped discussing a product and then canceled it (Dinos), they have released a bug filled game (SMAC), they have milked previous games by selling new releases (Gettysburg to Antitem, and SMACX), and have released a patch for bugs before you could even buy the game in stores (Gettysburg!). So why should I have total faith in Firaxis, sure I love their games and it probably will be good, but total faith?

And as for you quoting his whole post, you do not need to do that. You could have just said what you said and everyone would have understood. No need to have the same long post load twice.

[tniem]

Originally posted by yin26
Hey, thanks for the welcome.

No problem.

You are right. I am using a Korean-language keyboard, but I hopefully cleaned up the text by running it through textpad. Does it still show all the strange characters?

Yeah it is better. I didn't have a problem with it really, just asking...

As for the bug list, I was planning one with a group of 'Bug Hunters,' but I'm finding myself undewhelmed with the idea these days...how about you?

I would prefer not, but well what else am I going to do here on ACS after the game ships and I no longer can voice my fears. Hopefully, though there will not be to big of a list, but I figure there will be...

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I think there are no blind optimistic posters overhere,
but if I notice one I'll redirect them to your sig

Hmmm, may be my choice of word is bad because of my poor english. I didn't mean to offense anyone.
That said, take any poster that already preordered the game and I, without any offense intended, will be ready to add he/she to the list

Of course, they use their money and have any rights to do what they like. I was trying to make lighthearted comment, a small joke reversing the Yin26 signature.

Well, that's my last post for a while. Leaving for vacation, please considering that I won't be able to lurk this forum, so the missing of any reply from me is not to be intended as bad netiquette Hope you'll enjoy the new site from Firaxis, so when I'll go back I'll have thousands of exiting new post to read!

[rah]

Thanks Yin, I was away for a couple of days, and was pleased that you graced us with your presence again. My biggest fears for problems with the AI and MP were addressed by you in a most satisfying manner.

I am usually an optimist, but I truly enjoyed your work. In tribute I would like to add my review, and hope (really hope) that the final product will fall somewhere in between.

The GAME
I was happy that I decided not to pre-order that game. The first day of release, I picked it up at Best Buy on sale while my brother was still waiting for his pre-ordered copy to be shipped.
The box exceeded all my expectations. There was a majestic pattern on the box with CIV III in impressive large letters, right along with Sid's name. Thank god the box was water resistant so my tears easily wiped off. Just looking at the box made me realize that this was CIV III and not CIV 2.5. The manual took up almost the whole box. Half the manual covered all the new features of CIV III in easy to understand writing. There was a comprehensive table of contents and a truly functional index. After spending 8 hours reading the manual, I was ready to fulfill the desires that had haunted me for all these years. I quickly hung up the poster depicting ancient-modern combat artfully drawn by Frank Frazetta surrounding a detailed tech tree. The full install took about 5 minutes and ran without a hitch. There was an option on install so you could run the game without the CD in the drive. The backup CD that they provided really made me feel like a valued customer. They went a little more modern for the music and included cuts from the Back Street Boys and other boy bands.

STARTUP
WOW the intro movie was mindblowing. It was better than the last Pink Floyd concert I saw. It was definitely worth the 165 MB of disk space. I won't spoil it for anyone but when the horde of rats eventually completely obscured the statue of George Bush, I stood up and cheered.
The Tutorial was excellent and followed the instructions in the first chapter of the manual perfectly.
If you use the default settings, you can fire up a game at "Loser" level in about 30 seconds. But for the more sophisticated player, there is a custom game setup that has over 1000 possible things to customize. From the difficulty level all the way to what color kilts the Scottish are wearing. I decided to customize a game and after 90 minutes, I was ready to go. It also allows you to save the customized settings to save time in future games.

GRAPHICS
The intro and wonder movies were great. I'm sure after a few games, I'll just shut them off. While the game graphics have improved, have no fear, the map still has that fuzzy look with units that are hard to differentiate that we all got to be comfortable with in CIV I and II.
It was again necessary to turn on the grid to avoid bad moves, especially down the rivers.

GAME PLAY
You will be impressed. A lot of effort was put into this. While the GOTO command doesn't work every time, it has improved dramatically. And for those cases that it doesn't work, you are allowed to define routes between cities that will override the goto command. And if you do this and you have a settler in one of the cities, you can give it the build road command and click the other city, the settler will automatically start building a road using the path that you defined. If you use the automate irrigate command. It will go to the best square within the city range and irrigate it, move to the next and continue. I will actually use the automate settler commands in this version.
Resources added a new flavor, which I'll discuss in the AI section.
Trade is handled automatically. You still build caravans but you get the option of where you will trade and the software keeps track of everything. It even calculates the best item to build, etc.
The biggest improvement is stacking. Mixed armies fighting is a whole new dimension. Your catapults can do damage from a distance. (thought that was a no-brainer) Sometimes the defenders are better served by coming out of the city to attack you.

Interfaces
Biggest difference. There are over 89 popup windows that let you control everything. There's even a window that allows you to select groups of cities and change all of their build queues at the same time. Also customized saved build queues that even allows you to put in items that you don't have the technology for yet. A real time saver. One new screen shows you 16 cities at a glance (full stat view) to assist in Micro-management. Now I can micro manage every turn. This will really be big in MP.

THE AI
All my worries about an awful AI went up in smoke after watching the AI for half an hour. Stacking seems to have done the trick. The AI calculates (according to page 1,456 in the manual) the probability of success before initiating an attack. If the prob to win is higher than 40% it attacks, if less it finds a defensive position and waits for other units to make stacks. All the units move first towards stacks and then the stacks move. Now when the AI asks for something, (i.e. to share a resource) and threatens to come kick your ass. It means it. The first time I refused to share some iron, the Mongols declared war, and within 7 turns a stack of 5 chariots and 4 hoplites showed up at my border and started trashing my border cities. The days of defending your cities with a couple of units are over. You will have to maintain a much larger military to hold your territory. And if you do it in every city it will be costly, especially now that your troops are supported by your nation instead of cities. I'm amazed at what a difference stacks makes. The AI is still stupid and can't take advantage of city placements and resource use. But when it has a stack of 12 units, the only strategy it needs is attack. Your couple of pikeman fortified in the mountains blocking him will die quickly. Cities will fall.
The AI also like to include a spy or two in every stack just for fun. With stacks the spys will do sabotage the same turn as the army attack. It's a lot easier for the AI to coordinate a devastating attack with stacks. And heaven forbid if it has two stacks heading your way. I swear one waited for the other so they could attack the same turn. (I didn't think that was that hard to program) Since individual units are rotated before the stacks move, there is more opportunity for coordinated attacks. I even had the AI launch and Air attack from a carrier supporting a ground assault.
While you can get a general idea of the makeup of a stack, you need a spy to fully expose what's in a stack. More knuckle biting when they appear. (same with barbs)

MP
I haven't played since everyone else is still waiting for their pre-ordered games to ship, but I'm in heaven. Saved MP files are encrypted using a key based on your game serial number. When you play a saved game, everyone machine save is compared to verify no funny business. And you can't save a MP game as a scenario unless all the players are currently in the game and type their passwords in. No more peeking in between games or using two computers. I'm sure a sophisticated hacker can bypass this, but it's going to take time, and be beyond most of our abilities.

The customizing screen allows you to turn on/off almost every element of the game. The maps are also designed for more of an equitable start (page 2,347 of the manual)

It is all simultaneous move. When units meet, both units/stacks/city are frozen and a randomizer decides who gets to use remaining movement points first. This combined with stacks have solved most of people gripes about simul play. While the combats take a little longer, the time advantage of Simul more than makes up the difference. There is also an option of watching opponents combat, cool but it slows the game down a bit.

IP/PBEM/SERVER/Peer to peer is supported.

OVERALL
This is the best CIV ever produced and I now don't feel so bad about waiting as long as I have.
Rush out and buy this game.

RAH

Sorry for the length but what the hey.