Helicopters

BeBro · July 22, 2001, 07:48

Ok, i know they weren´t very useful in Civ2, but i love Helis, so do we have nice Helicopter units in Civ3? Any info about that?

Perhaps we could have different types, one Attack heli (AH64 or Mi24) and one for air transport purposes, or one for AntiSubmarine warfare?

Alinestra Covelia · July 22, 2001, 11:29

I agree with you, and I think a mixture hybrid unit should be made.

Helicopters should have a primary use in battlefield clearing, or in attacking separate units in terrain. They should not have any particularly good success against well defended bases, especially those with air defence.

Something like SMAC's attack-per-turn model should be good, but with a 50% penalty if attacking a city. How does that sound?

BeBro · July 22, 2001, 12:34

I haven´t played SMAC, but yes, I also think they should be more useful in the open than against cities/bases. Perhaps Fireaxis will introduce some nice new special abilities...

Dida · July 22, 2001, 12:41

Quote:

Originally posted by BeBro
Perhaps we could have different types, one Attack heli (AH64 or Mi24) and one for air transport purposes, or one for AntiSubmarine warfare?

this is stupid, we should have 1 unit with all these strength combined.
helicopters can transport troops to any tile, requiring no air field. they can spot submarines, and conduct air-to-surface attack. No air attack.

BeBro · July 22, 2001, 13:05

I disagree, an AH64 cannot carry troops, and a normal Mi24 cannot detect submerged subs. The game should reflect such things, as well as it reflect the differences between Tanks and APCs (if we identified the units correctly).

Dida · July 22, 2001, 13:45

a game is not real life, and real life is not as fun as a game. this game is not intended to simulate combat situation. too many helicopter units would adds complexity to the game, and make it hard to manage. By far, 1 copter for transport, another for combat/sub detection would be enough.

BeBro · July 22, 2001, 13:56

Yeah, I don´t request dozens of different helis, two or three types are ok for me.

Inverse Icarus · July 22, 2001, 20:09

we discussed this here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=22494

DarkCloud · July 22, 2001, 20:44

I think one type is suitable... we can't flood the game with 1950+ units, can we?

If we must have helicopters, one from an older era and one from the 2000's is acceptable.

Theben · July 22, 2001, 23:40

I think the whole unit should be abstracted into the mechanized armor unit.

It's effects would be to have a combat bonus vs. non-heli enhanced armor, and to lessen the % chance of retreat of other units.

As for transport, I've never heard of a helicopter lift of an entire division. Maybe short "paradrops" allowed for small units (explorer, dips/spies if still units, partisans/commandos), from any location within x# of tiles from an airbase/city.

AroSch · July 23, 2001, 05:03

The only thing I know about helis in Civ3, is that they (and airplanes too) are not "directly" moved. So it seems ther is (are?) a (some) helicopter(s) in Civ3.

But this was sad in a early review, so it could also be, the heli is no longer in the game (remember, firaxis sad, units from Civ2 which aren´t useful are not in Civ3). So you may hope, they make them more useful instad.

BeBro · July 23, 2001, 05:34

Hm, does that mean that the player has not full control over planes and helis? Do you have more info about that, Arne?

Mech Assassin · July 23, 2001, 05:49

Hmm, helis were quite useful for capturing cities with Carrier-bound attacks to ground.

Case · July 23, 2001, 07:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Theben
As for transport, I've never heard of a helicopter lift of an entire division.

Then you need to brush up on your military history. In Vietnam the US army had the entire 1st Cavalry Division mounted in helicopters, and in the Gulf War the entire 101st Air Assult Division invaded Iraq via helicopters.
Also, AH-64's were to destry frount-line air defences on the first days of the bombing campaign.

death_head · July 23, 2001, 10:14

I think in Civ3 you should get to build black helicopters...

AroSch · July 23, 2001, 10:50

Quote:

Originally posted by BeBro
Do you have more info about that, Arne?

Well, not much, but the preview at PCPLAYER (german) sad somthing like this: You will give these units a target, and then they moved himself. Turn by turn. They sad, this should solve the "no-more-fuell-crash-problem", because the units now going to fuell thereself. But as far I know, they was the onlyones, the sad such things. May be this was a mistake during the translation? Anaybody knows, what the first PCGAMER (english) preview sad in this way?

Recurve · July 23, 2001, 13:07

Choice and diversity are positive attributes.

I would even welcome the introduction of railway-guns and zeppelins! At the end of the day, if you dislike a unit then don't build it!

tniem · July 23, 2001, 13:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Recurve
Choice and diversity are positive attributes.

I would even welcome the introduction of railway-guns and zeppelins! At the end of the day, if you dislike a unit then don't build it!

Not really an option though, is it? I mean, if it is in the game and the AI is using it or if your playing MP you will have to build these units to compete. Even if they are overkill and not fun to use.

Recurve · July 23, 2001, 14:05

The Germans had a fair few OTT railway-guns. We didn't exactly panic and start building our own (even when the Kent coast was bombarded from France). Such weapons would serve to add fun, nothing more.

death_head · July 23, 2001, 14:23

the operative word being "few"

MP would see mass production of these weapons...

Recurve · July 23, 2001, 14:58

You have a point there.

Mahdimael · July 23, 2001, 20:34

And we name them all "Airwolf" and they always fire one round/missile and completely destroy the enemy, while never taking damage.

Quote:

Originally posted by death_head
I think in Civ3 you should get to build black helicopters...

BeBro · July 24, 2001, 06:18

Quote:

Originally posted by AroSch
You will give these units a target, and then they moved himself. Turn by turn. They sad, this should solve the "no-more-fuell-crash-problem", because the units now going to fuell thereself.

Reminds me on Command&Conquer3, I think it is not sooo bad. However, I´m wondering if dogfights and intercept missions are done in the same way...

Deathwalker · July 24, 2001, 06:24

In Civ 2 helicopters were very much underused and to be honest crap. So if they are going to be included in civ 3 I think a major redisgn needs to be given to them, so I agree

death_head · July 24, 2001, 10:27

Quote:

Originally posted by BeBro
Reminds me on Command&Conquer3, I think it is not sooo bad. However, I´m wondering if dogfights and intercept missions are done in the same way...

C & C 3 doesn't exist. Are you referring to Tiberian Sun?

BeBro · July 24, 2001, 10:52

It does exist...at least here in Germany, where they sold it as Command&Conquer Part 3 "Operation Tiberian Sun".

death_head · July 24, 2001, 10:55

Gotcha.

*mutters something about Germans*

Mahdimael · July 24, 2001, 13:16

Well, Helis were just like a lot of the later units in civ2. None of them got used too much except tanks and howitzers. Heck, I rarely used fighters for much more than exploring parts of the map I hadn't seen. There's a lot of specialized units at the end, and some, like helicopters, weren't as useful.

death_head · July 24, 2001, 14:27

Hopefully, Civ3 will be balanced time-wise so that end-game units are a viable option.

Case · July 24, 2001, 19:57

Does anyone know wheter there is actually going to be a seperate helicopter unit in Civ 3? In my opinion, helicopters shouldn't be a seperate unit, but should mearly improve the stats of exhisting units. For example, helicopters should improve the spotting range, movement and attack values of all land and sea units.