Wonders!~?

[joechoda]

ok, this may have been covered already, i'm new HELLO! and i haven't read much more than the first page, BUT...

WOnders?? what ones are "vital" which do you traditionally go for at the begining?? this could reveal alot./

i ALWAYS do the pyramids first... obvious, i like growth.

then i usually get Colossus.... if possible, and other ones i ALWAYS get:

Mike's CHapel
marco polo!!!!
Bach's cathedral
darwin's voyage
womens suffrage
cure for cancer
seti program

those are the must haves, according to my style of growth easy happiness, and science.

if i'm lucky to have several thriving cities, i most certainly will go for most of them....

however, i have never built Sun Tzu's war academy. i find that to be useless.

RoB!

[Gatekeeper]

JoeChoda:

Hmm ... your Wonder emphasis pretty much matches mine, with the exceptions of:

1. Pyramids
2. Cure for Cancer
3. SETI Program

I usually build a ton of granaries right away and simply get Adam Smith's Trading Company to recoup the costs later. Nos. 2 and 3 are expendable, depending on the state of the game. If I haven't gotten Michelango's Chapel and/or J.S. Bach's Cathedral, then I will be hell-bent on getting Cure for Cancer. SETI simply comes too late in the game to be of any real benefit, particularly if you've lost the Collossus, Copernicus and Isaac Newton. And if you've gotten those three Wonders, what's the point of SETI?

On a final note, I place supreme importance on getting Colossus — when it's built in a well-situated capital or second founding city, it can make a heckuva difference w/the extra trade arrows.

CYBERAmazon

[Tizzy]

It depends what sort of game I'm playing.

OCC: Colossus, Observatory, College, Theatre, Darwin's Voyage SOMETIMES, Apollo

Bloodlust: Colossus, Hanging Gardens ( because I don't ususally build temples or anything like that if I@m taking over the world), Great Wall, War Academy, and hopefully the game ends shortly after that!

Space race: as for OCC (except Theatre), but I always try for Darwin's in this type of game, plus Adam Smiths, Hoover Dam and Seti. I might chuck in one or two happiness wonders, but I usually use luxuries to keep them happy.

I still think building Seti is a good idea. It makes quite a difference to your science rate (and by this time, the Colossus is obsolete), which means you can either make the rest of your discoveries quickly, or lower your science rate to what it was before, and build up your treasury to rush buy those spaceship parts.

Tiz

[Laertes]

It depends on what level you are playing, but at Deity the happiness wonders you have are important.

I really like Sun Tzu if you are expanding a lot, as your first units in distant cities will be vets, and you can do a lot of damage with vet knights and calvary.

Hoover Dam is a must have for me, for the production and pollution control.

I never bother with Darwin's voyage. The science rate should be high enough not to need it, especially if you build the SUper Science City which is well explained elsewhere - COlossus, Copernicus, Newtons COllege and lots of freights and give you a city with several hundred research beakers per turn.

UN is really valuable too, it tends to stop annoying little prods from your neighbours.

[kcbob]

Welcome to the fray, joechoda. Hope you've got a lot of free time on your hands. Either that or a good psychotherapist to help you with your addiction to this forum that is sure to develop.

Wonders? As some of the other people said, it depends on a couple of things, i.e., what difficulty level and what style.

An OCC game is probably the same regardless of the difficulty level. Colossus, Copernicus, Sir Isaac, Shakespeare's, and Apollo should do it.

ICS... Hanging Gardens, Sun Tzu, and Leo's. Maybe the Great Wall.

Perfectionist expansionist... Mike's Chapel (and maybe Bachs), Leo's, Darwins, Hoover Dam, Adam Smith's, Seti, and Statue of Liberty.

BTW. Are you familiar with the acronyms OCC and ICS?

Anyway, good luck.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Bohlen]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 10-25-2000 07:54 AM Welcome to the fray, joechoda. Hope you've got a lot of free time on your hands. Either that or a good psychotherapist to help you with your addiction to this forum that is sure to develop

You can say that again!

[Simpson II]

The only wonder that I'm fairly fanatical about is Mike's Chapel. After that would be Bach's Cathedral, so that I can skip building coloseums - the pair mean a huge saving in time. Shakespeare's Theatre is very nice for the aggressive democrat, and HG is a big boon to any effective expansion... hmm, is there a pattern here? Happiness, IMHO, is the key to winning the middle-game, at least at Deity.
Most of the later wonders are just icing. SoL is the only one which is likely to have a really dramatic game effect, with great claw-back potential in MP... how to build it while behind is another story, though.

Sun Tzu's can be very useful, especialy if you get the Great Wall with it. Every new or captured city becomes a military stronghold immediately.

But, by and large, I believe in playing what I get. You can make good use of all the wonders (Eiffel Tower excepted, of couse!)

[Ming]

Again, the value of each wonder is totally dependent on the game you are playing and the strategy you are taking. The light house is a great wonder if you are stuck on an island, but not that important on a small world with one large mass.

The happiness wonders are more important at Deity, but at the lower levels, they aren't a total must.

SP vs MP can make all the difference in the world too!

But, we can all agree that the only purpose of the Eiffel Tower is for some AI to waste shields building it

[Tizzy]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 10-25-2000 10:31 AM The happiness wonders are more important at Deity, but at the lower levels, they aren't a total must.

What a give away that I don't play at Deity!

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 10-25-2000 10:31 AM But, we can all agree that the only purpose of the Eiffel Tower is for some AI to waste shields building it

Er ... not quite. The Eiffel Tower can be very helpful in SP for the civilized player who has been forced to compromise her reputation. Building it will re-enable the forming of lasting alliances, the ability to trade techs and to get tribute or gifts, and even to make peace (in MGE).

Of course it all depends on the reputation of the AI tribes: if they have done bad things, having a good reputation yourself makes little difference. But there are circumstances in which the Eiffel Tower is a wannahave.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 10-25-2000 01:45 PMBuilding it will re-enable the forming of lasting alliances, the ability to trade techs and to get tribute or gifts, and even to make peace (in MGE).

For all the ranting and raving I do about MGE and the hostile AI, you'd've thought that I would have tried this. Do you think it really helps all that much?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Ming]

Heck... once you have a big lead on the AI, and the game advances into the modern era... Not even the ET will do you any good. They will still hate your guts anyway

[Bohlen]

ET is absolutely worthless. Ming said it all. The AI will attack when it is behind in the tech race no matter what, especially in MGE.

I go back and forth on the "Best Wonder" question all the time. Yes, it does depend on what type of game you are playing and what situation you are in at the time of an advance that allows a wonder, but for me there seems to be the same old wonders that I build every time, and when I don't...well, I don't enjoy the game as much.

Colossus, Cope's, & Ike's are THE wonders to have for your civ. A SSC makes the game a lot more fun.

Adam Smith's is just awesome. Want to go to war and still keep a high rate of research? Build it.

Mike's Chapel is a MUST wonder. Ok, so you can win without it, but it's not as much fun, is it?

[Mercantile]

my favorite wonder is Sun Tzu's, it lasts along time, and it is available almost at the beginning which makes it valuable. The vet units for me are of extreme importance as i tend to do more defensive fighting.

However on an economic front, ASTC is important as it saves me tons of cash, which i can use for cathedrals and such when i dont come up with Mikes or Bachs.

A wonder i am really starting to see as important, especially if there is water is the lighthouse. I used to think it sucked, now vet boats are seen as important to my trading empire Control the seas matey, lets get that caravan to another nation

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 10-25-2000 03:31 PM Heck... once you have a big lead on the AI, and the game advances into the modern era... Not even the ET will do you any good. They will still hate your guts anyway

Well, maybe so, but - I just built the Eiffel Tower late in OCC#4, which allowed me to give a bundle of techs to civs who didn't want any before, thereby significantly lowering the beaker requirement for the rest of the game. So even at such a late date it can be good for something

In another game (the OCC where we start by destroying 4 surrounding civs ) I built ET much earlier with even better results. In MGE you cannot have any negotiations when your reputation is low.

- Rib -

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Taurus]

Hey,

Mine route through the wonders would be like :
Colossus or Hanging Gardens.
Great Library (Great for geting military techs).
Marco polo's embassy.
Michalangelo's chapel.
Adam smith trading co.
Leonardo's workshop (Great for your defence).
Darwin's voyage (Very optional).
Hoover dam (A must).
SETI program (Another must).
Apollo program (For that spaceship).

I would love to hear some comments.


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Proud member of the state of Israel.

[Kestrel]

So how would you all feel with a game that had FEW useful wonders that a human Civ could build, for example a version where there are no "Global" wonders (except the Manhattan Project).

Say, only allow low impact or "city" based wonders such as :

Colossus,
King Richard's Crusade,
Copernicus' Observatory,
Shakespeare's Theatre,
Isaac Newton's College,
Darwin's Voyage,

and

(if you like nukes,)

Manhattan Project

(You might want to also include Eiffel Tower if you thought this was of middling benefit)

and so set the prerequisite for all other Wonders to no,

Would this make it harder for you to win / force you to change your play-strategy ?

(However, such a change might favour players of OCC)

[Ming]

It would change my strategy in SP. Because in SP, I'm used to getting any wonder I want.

In MP... it might effect my science path, because there would be no need to head for MC or Bachs. But in MP, I don't count on getting any specific wonder... so any I get are a bonus!

[Bohlen]

I wouldn't say those wonders are truly "low impact" since you have all 4 of the SSC wonders listed. Some of the Non-civ wide wonders are the most important ones to have. Let me build those 4 SSC wonders and I'll be very happy.

[Smokey tha nuke man]

here's what da smokes think


EARLY GAME:

1>hanging gardens
2>oracle
3>colossus
4>great wall
5>coprenucus observatory


MIDDLE GAME:

1>leonardos workshop
2>mikes chapel
3>js bachs cathedral
4>fig nwton's college
5>king richards crusade


LATE GAME:

1>women's sufferage
2>darwin's voyage
3>apollo program
4>cure for cancer
5>(capitalazation)

any other's da smokes left off the list are, in his opinion, jes if ya got nothing else to do wonders, not important.
[This message has been edited by Smokey tha nuke man (edited October 27, 2000).]

[Bereta_Eder]

The wonders I usually build and I (almost) never lose are:

Always

Mike's Chapel
Leonardo Da Vinci
Hoover Dam
SETI
Cure for Cancer
Apollo (if space race is chosen obviously)

Sometimes

Colossus
Adam Smith
Womens's Suffrage
Newton's College
Copernicus Observatory

This works excellent for your ideal perfectionist (me
The «always» wonders and 15 or so metropolis (25 +) and it's very hard to lose.

If you're playing a game that's decided by power graph, yes Pyramids would be the one. If it's to the end, IMHO it's a waste.
Why? Unless you have horrible land, your cities will grow fine without, and you can build something else, like Great Library.
Being ahead in science puts you ahead in military evolvement and all else. You can study your path, and pick up discoveries by 2 other tribes.
Great Wall is good, because you can start a city in the middle of a battlefield, and have it protected.

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It's In The Way That You Use It

ICQ 51553293 Tuatha de Danann Tribe

[Bohlen]

I usually don't build Pyramids unless I can without sacrificing building something else. I'll let the AI build the Pyramids and capture that city later. With the happiness wonders in place, capturing the Pyramids means a beautiful middle game growth spurt.

[Everyman]

Must Haves

Hanging Gardens. Essential in a deity level game. Having a happy first citizen allows you to expand quickly and efficiently. I generally research Pottery early on, even at the cost of disrupting my race to Monarchy.

Michaelangelo's Chapel. Keeps the lid on unhappiness, especially on Deity level.

Leo's Workshop. The advantages of getting advanced units outweigh the loss of veteran status. High points: Settler to Engineer, Warrior to Pikeman. Low Point: Ironclad to Destroyer.

Statue of Liberty. I usually switch to Communism right away to get of corruption. If I'm behind other civs, I'll switch to Fundamentalism to get cash for bribing cities and acquiring techs. If I have MC and Bach, I'll switch to Democracy.

Adam Smith. The extra gold allows me to bribe cities.

Note on early game wonders: At the higher difficulty levels, the AI will compete fiercely with you for wonders so you'll have to prioritize. Also, there are a number of wonders that are available concurrently and you won't be able to acquire them all. My immediate goal is Hanging Gardens, then Colosus in the same city (usually the capitol) -- if I can also get Copernicus in that city, then it's my lucky day. I'll start building a wonder in a second city and try for Pyramids (saves on shields for granaries) or Great Library (even though I can live without it) or Great Wall (ditto).

quote: Originally posted by Everyman on 10-31-2000 02:58 PM Must Haves ... Statue of Liberty.

I don't quite think this is a must. Democracy is about as good as fundy or commie, and with the oedo discovery, it is only a so-so wonder.

[Smokey tha nuke man]

da smokes agrees. it's nice if ya have the time ta build it, but it sure ain't no "must-have". the statue is only good if you really suck at keeping your people happy under democracy, in which an eaiser thing ta do is jes kill off yo democracy and try sumthin else. k?

[Shogun Gunner]

I'm happy if I get Mike's Chapel, Adam Smith and Hoover Dam.

Happiness
Money
Production

The three keys to winning in Civ!

[Hawkman]

I like all but three or four of the wonders. Some of you indicated the Pyramids isn't worth so much, but if you're building 20-25 cities at the Deity level the Pyramids will allow your cities to grow a lot faster. It usually takes a new city 10-15 turns to build a granary, and that time is better spent on something else, like a library or a marketplace.

The SETI is an interesting one. I usually build it just to deny another civilization the extra science growth. Civilizations like the Americans or maybe the Babylonians can catch up very quickly in the middle or end game when they have SETI.

Darwin's Voyage is one that I don't get too excited about, as I concentrate on completing my factories before assigning a city to build it. But it's nice to have, like some others.

Michelangelo's Chapel, Hoover's Dam, Pyramids, and a few others are important because they save you time and money. I sometimes play a game without any wonders (by making it impossible to build any until all the techs are discovered), and these games are much tougher. Especially when I eliminate the Goody Huts, too. Makes you appreciate the wonders.

[Matthew]

quote: Originally posted by Everyman on 10-31-2000 02:58 PM Note on early game wonders: At the higher difficulty levels, the AI will compete fiercely with you for wonders so you'll have to prioritize. Also, there are a number of wonders that are available concurrently and you won't be able to acquire them all. My immediate goal is Hanging Gardens, then Colosus in the same city (usually the capitol) -- if I can also get Copernicus in that city, then it's my lucky day. I'll start building a wonder in a second city and try for Pyramids (saves on shields for granaries) or Great Library (even though I can live without it) or Great Wall (ditto).

I agree. At diety level, sometimes I have to settle for only 5 or 6 of the 7 earliest wonders.

Actually in single production I usually don't bother with the GL, cause I can get techs from the AI almost at will anyway by the time 2 or more have it, and I don't mind missing out on the pyramids, cause against the AI I can always have MC, and almost always HG as well, so I just grow by celebrating.

And no, I'm not really bragging. With a bit of experience it's not hard to get all the wondes, except 1 or 2 on occasion. Simply prioritize trade after Monarchy while concentrating on getting 7 or 8 cities with roads between them, (this can usually be done by 950 B.C. if Terrain is agreeable) build MC with caravans, get techs through trade and even more techs , and gold also, through tribute, Incrementally buy caravans, and you can crank those wonders out. Doesn't always work so well, but you get the idea. I don't do the tribute thing much myself except when I've given the AI all kinds of gifts and he still refuses to trade techs, because it makes the game too easy.


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The camel is not a part of civ.

THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!