Spies

[Caligastia]

I had a spy in one of my cities and the AI tried to steal one of my techs with a diplomat, and my spy caught the diplomat and stopped him from stealing.
But I had this other game, and with my spy in the city a diplomat was able to sabotage my barracks production.

Does anyone know exactly what spies can and can not prevent when they are in you city?

[SCG]

spies and diplomats have a small chance of stopping just about any type of espionage outside of maybe having the city bribed itself (i've gotten countless diplomats when bribing cities, never had one stopped). How much of a chance they have to prevent depends on a variety of factors, including spy vs diplomant, vet status, corruption levels, what is being attempted, where it is being attempted etc. There also have been reports saying that the chance is cumulative with other spies/diplos in the city.

So, a green spy trying to plant a nuclear device in a capital with several vet spies stationed there will almost always fail. Meanwhile a vet spy engaging in random acts of violence in a small city manned by a diplomat on the outskirts of a monarchy will usually succeed.

If you want to prevent espionage altogether, catch the enemy dips/spies before they reach your city, short of that, place lots of vet spies in likely target cities.

[Caligastia]

Thanks, that answers my question pretty well!

[debeest]

If I remember correctly the manual and earlier discussions here, the only thing that a dip/spy in a city can defend against is civ-advance theft. Am I wrong? Also, I don't think the manual says anything about corruption being a factor for this, and I know of no evidence that it is.

SCG's fundamental advice is most pertinent: keepin' 'em out of your cities is the most important thing. Easy enough against the AI, if you pay attention, but I'll bet it's tough in multi-player.

[tonic]

quote: If I remember correctly the manual and earlier discussions here, the only thing that a dip/spy in a city can defend against is civ-advance theft. Am I wrong?

Not quite. They can also thwart the sabotage of city improvements.

[Blaupanzer]

Courthouses amplify this defense aspect in some way. If you're really lucky the caught spy hangs around on your city's edge. Then you can kill them, expel them, or bribe them and send them back as suicide bombers at your discretion.

[Chainsaw]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 10-16-2000 02:58 PM If you want to prevent espionage altogether, catch the enemy dips/spies before they reach your city, short of that, place lots of vet spies in likely target cities.

I usually don't place too many spies in cities near to the front. Chances are, that the AI buys that city and gets your spies as a sort of extra bonus, which is used to buy more of your citites. I expirienced once or twice a sort of chain reaction and lost several cities due to spies in my cities which were bought by the AI.
I find it better to place spies (as well as your main attack force) away from the front in cities that are connected by railroad to the cities at the front. Better to sacrifice one or two front cities and re-capture them than having a bunch of AI-spies running around. This of course only makes sense if the enemy's land has a nice infrastructure (RR), and you have a nice invasion army.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Chainsaw on 10-23-2000 06:29 PM I usually don't place too many spies in cities near to the front. Chances are, that the AI buys that city and gets your spies as a sort of extra bonus, which is used to buy more of your citites.

Guess that depends on your government of choice I tend to become a democracy ASAP, and I think I've had 2 cities bribed total in all of my Civ II playing days, one of those in a scenario where i was stuck in monarchy. Consequently, I'll strategically place single units to force diplomats onto 2-movement terrain and then bribe them over to my side

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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[Jim W]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 10-24-2000 08:40 AM Guess that depends on your government of choice I tend to become a democracy ASAP, and I think I've had 2 cities bribed total in all of my Civ II playing days, one of those in a scenario where i was stuck in monarchy. Consequently, I'll strategically place single units to force diplomats onto 2-movement terrain and then bribe them over to my side

I like the advantages of Democracy, but what do you do about nasty foreign people tramping all over your irrigated fields with their muddy boots on?

I think, in all the t imes I've ever been Democratic, the Senate has allowed me to start a fight maybe twice.

Jim W

[SCG]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Jim W on 10-24-2000 10:47 AM</font> I like the advantages of Democracy, but what do you do about nasty foreign people tramping all over your irrigated fields with their muddy boots on? I think, in all the t imes I've ever been Democratic, the Senate has allowed me to start a fight maybe twice. Jim W

I generally try and keep them from entering the land in the first place by using ZoC and 2-movement terrain. If it is the first time I have encountered them, I refuse to speak to them and remove them by force. Barring that, I will recruit them to join the Ever Victorious Army Finally, if all else fails, I will try and goad them into war (make unreasonable demands in negotiations, use dips to continually place my troops on their land etc)

Of course if i expect war, I'll build a fort or 2 on defensive terrain (within 3 spaces of a city) and place at least 1 defensive unit and at least 1 offensive (attack or diplo) in it. Once at war, as long as the AI isn't democratic, I'll just buy off any nearby city and establish a new frontier.

For forts inside AI city zones, caravans and diplomats are great for manning forts even after you cede to the demands of removing all troops And then you can move those units back into the fort again that turn - the AI will declare war on you in no time

Edit: darn disabled smiles instead of placing a sig
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited October 24, 2000).]

[Bohlen]

I have historically had a problem with keeping the AI from stealing important techs from me, especially Space Flight (of course), and have recently been playing a certain style to prepare myself for the inevitable: AI tech stealing.

I have been expanding as much as possible in the early game, but only as far as the terrain will allow me to secure some sort of a strategic bottleneck so that I can keep the AI spies from my cities, at least when they travel by land. I’m building forts very early to prepare for the eventual AI steal attempt and attack that happens when I’m rapidly researching in a Democracy. The best way to keep the AI spies away is to build a wall of forts and troops between you and the rest of the continent. I don’t need to declare war to get the AI away from my border because the AI gets eventually gets pissed off because of its caravans, troops, and diplomats that have been trying to get past my border for 200+ years. It’s a fun way to play and has worked out very nicely. Want to go to war in Demo? Just be a jerk for a while and let nothing pass by your border and the AI will eventually become desperate and attack. Fighters are great on the borders and coasts as they allow for long range spy and transport hunting.

[Chainsaw]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 10-24-2000 08:40 AM Guess that depends on your government of choice I tend to become a democracy ASAP, and I think I've had 2 cities bribed total in all of my Civ II playing days, one of those in a scenario where i was stuck in monarchy. Consequently, I'll strategically place single units to force diplomats onto 2-movement terrain and then bribe them over to my side

I usually build up my army being in democracy, and then finish the AI off in a few turns. When it comes to fighting, I swich to fundie. By doing that, I ensure a constant flow of reinforcements, and don't need to fear disorder in my cities due to all the zillions of units outside my cities (especially naval units and land units on transports). So there's no way to avoid the spy threat by choice of government.

[Shogun Gunner]

It seems that the AI either ignores his spy capability or goes to the other extreme and uses his spies very effectively.

There's nothing more frustrating than losing a city or two to bribery. All that hard work!!! not to mentioned the indignity.

I also stay on democracy as much as possible. I usually keep my military ready to go in the cities then unlease it on the civ which declares war on me. It requires having great defenses (city walls, coastal forts, SAM, SDI, fighters). Once you survive the first assault, you can unload on the unlucky enemy.

A trick I like to use: Totally surround a city you are about to capture with air units (even fighters as you can land them in the city you are about to capture),spies or just about any unit you can get there. Spies are particularly good for this also due to movement points and vision to see enemy units. This prevents partisans from forming around the city. It also reduces the likelyhood of the enemy pleading for peace. You know those darn doves in the Senate are just waiting to accept the enemy's "surrender" even right after you have been PEARL HARBORed!

[Matthew]

Spies do have a very high chance of success in stopping dips from stealing techs. But not so much other spies.