If Blizzard can do it why can't Firaxis?

[yin26]

Yes. That basically sums it up. LOL! Btw, can the members of the club get titles? Serious question (I ask it in the other thread, but you might be ignoring that thread, so I understand).

[MarkG]

since just the name "yin" will bring in hundreds of people to the club, i must decline due to lack of time

[yin26]

Very diplomatic of you! Just remember: You started the club. Take some pride in it!

[korn469]

Urban Ranger

korn,

What great Blizzard software are you talking about? *scratchs head* Sorry, never heard of any.

i guess i am being completely oblivious to your intended sarcasm...but just in case you aren't trying to be funny

Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 9:53 am CT
Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Goes Platinum
Blizzard Entertainment today announced that Diablo II: Lord of Destruction has surpassed 1 million units sold worldwide, according to NPD INTELECT and key retail accounts from around the world. More than 2 million units of the game have been shipped to retail. Diablo II: Lord of Destruction not only becomes the sixth Blizzard product to sell 1 million copies, but also to reach No. 1 in U.S. sales. The expansion, which shipped on June 29, is topping most PC sales charts in North America, Europe and Asia. In its first week alone, the game captured a record 17.7 percent of total U.S. PC game market share, also according to NPD INTELECT.

here's some more

Blizzard continues to cast a spell on players in the form of its Diablo expansion: Lord of Destruction takes the top spot for the week of July 8-14. Sales of the expansion are conjuring fresh movement at retail of the parent title, which placed fourth. Ever-present stalwarts including The Sims, Rollercoaster Tycoon, and the Age of Empires franchise are represented along with newer titles such as Black & White and Throne of Bhall, another add-on for a popular role-playing title.

As an aside, July 2001 marks the 18th month in which the original Sims title has consistently been in the top ten, outselling most newer titles. Here are the top ten selling titles, with publisher and price information included:

1. Diablo 2 Expansion Set: Lord of Destruction, Vivendi Universal Publishing, $35
2. The Sims, Electronic Arts, $42
3. The Sims: House Party Expansion Pack, Electronic Arts, $29
4. Diablo 2, Vivendi Universal Publishing, $38
5. Roller Coaster Tycoon, Infogrames Entertainment, $27
6. The Sims Livin Large Expansion Pack, Electronic Arts, $29
7. Age Of Empires II: Age of Kings, Microsoft, $41
8. Flight Simulator, Microsoft, $34
9. Black & White, Electronic Arts, $41
10. Baldur's Gate 2: Throne Of Bhaal, Interplay, $30

i seriously hope that you have heard of Starcraft, or Warcraft, or Diablo, or Blackthorne (hehe one of the first blizzard games i played it on the super nintendo)...but if not they are great games, not perfect but highly polished

and here are some words of wisdom from David "Pyaray" Ray taken from The Column

In a perfect world they would say, "Oh well, it's not that fun, let's just through it away." This isn't a perfect world though, and they have already (after 9 months of development) spent $1,500,000 on the development of it, they have another $500,000 still left in the budget, although they probably don't even want to spend that much more on it if it's going to not sell the original estimates anyway. So at this stage most companies will decide to fix it as best they can, with some much smaller amount of budget left, with very little time, and ship it anyway. If you cancel a product altogether you will not earn a single penny off of that project. If you ship a mediocre game, you will earn some money back. Maybe not as much as you spent making it, but at least it's not a total loss. However, shipping a mediocre, or even bad, game does not endear you to your public. It will cost you money in the long run

but like Warm Beer (thanks for the compliments btw) said the rumors of a release date came from the "official" infograms website, and a fullpage ad in a gaming magazine...so either you have some loose cannons running around buying ads (those things don't come free you know) who decided that october would look nicer on an ad instead of coming soon...

which doesn't sound plausiable...so it comes down to the fact that somebody at infogram decided that civ3 was being released in october...they distribute the game, and more than likely they do most of the publicity for it to...so the pr machine might be pulling out ahead of the rest of the civ3 gravey train, but then again maybe they want civ3 in stores by christmas...if i recall correctly infograms had a fairly dismal quarter last time, and maybe they have alot riding on the fourth quarter (and it's holiday sales) so they are [font color=red]DEMANDING[/color] that firaxis make a mid october deadline so that the game can hit stores in time for christmas...

firaxis did delay SMAC, and from what i heard it needed all of that time and maybe even more, during that time they added in a few new modes of victory...one of the beta testers at the owo forums said when we first got SMAC that it was in really bad shape QA wise...also i know that the green rush got nixed because they took feedback from the demo...SMAC came out in febuary 1999, just imagine if it had of came out in october 1998...it would have been a shoddy game not worthy of the title "Sid Meier's"

i just know that firaxis has a choice to make...release the game before it's ready because of financial concerns, or to wait till civ3 is the best civ experiance ever at the cost of an undetermined amount of money...

either way, it is the team at firaxis that will have to live with that decision...i just hope they take the path blizzard did, and always take responsibility to make the best games possible...

i know it is not possible for civ3 to be perfect, but just because it can't be perfect i don't want an inferior product either...but if they work on it enough, i am sure they can make civ3 the product we all are hoping it is going to be

[H Tower]

korn, based on your displeasure w/firaxis i think you would make a great member of Yin's club

[MarkG]

Originally posted by korn469
i just know that firaxis has a choice to make...release the game before it's ready because of financial concerns, or...

in october firaxis will be releasing simgolf. how exactly whill they have financial problems?

btw, regarding infogrames, from our news

French video games publisher Infogrames Entertainment is aiming to return to profit in the year to June 30, 2002, with a targeted net profit margin of 4 percent, after an expected net loss of 27 million euros in 1999/01, Chairman Bruno Bonnell was quoted as saying on Friday. In an interview with French financial weekly Investir, Bonnell said he was comfortable with analysts' forecasts for Infogrames to post turnover of around 680 million euros in 2000/01 and an operating loss of around 50 million euros.

[LaRusso]

You people should really get jobs in think-tanks and intelligence agencies. So many deductions from so little facts, and predictions argumented so forcefully...on the basis of an ad or two...
The thing is that nobody really knows what stage of civ3 building they are at. Alpha, beta, late beta? Can anyone (except for yin) wage a bet on the actual stage the project is in?
Besides, there seems to be an almost unquestioned premise that the game NEEDS more time and that no amount of programming competence, wizardry or inspiration (plus hard work) can possibly make it ready by October. Yes, yes, there is an information blackout and that blackout really makes people shudder, but if the game is fundamentally flawed at this point (as some of you are assuming), 3 or 4 more months will not be enough (as SMAC experience shows).
Civ 3 forum basically became one massive thread on publishing and codewriting practices and no one stayed out of it. At first people laughed at Yin, then started taking him seroiusly after JUne 11 and July 11 passed by. Now the pendulum is in the full swing on the other side and I do feel that we are starting to sound like a lynch mob (I know I did, at least couple of times). This is, after all, supposed to be a fun experience, and it is rapidly turning into a vent for our frustrations about the game release.
To aggravate this, there is a sense of despair creeping in. There was no post from Firaxians for some time and the whole discussion here starts looking like a shrink couch. This said, I must say I do enjoy reading them .


P.S. Do you people experience the same sinking feeling every morning you log on and realise that yet another dame is gone by without an update?

[korn469]

markg

i didn't make myself clear sorry, when i said finacial concerns, i was referring to finacial concerns at Infogrames who wants to make a profit, and since simgolf is being published by EA, i doubt it will help them any...i really don't think that firaxis is in the midst of any trouble when it comes to their cash reserves, but i have no clue though...and like it says in your news item Infogrames is going to post an operating loss of around 50 million euros...so i'm sure that they need a hit like a crack addict right about now

there are people at infogrames that can't get civ3 (and big sales) soon enough...somewhere, somebody is stressed out tonight, because their job could possibly be in jeopardy...whoever ran that october 2001 ad could now be looking for work...games are a very serious business...a high stakes, high pressure world...so i am sure they are trying to get firaxis to hurry up as much as possible...and basically jeff briggs has got to stand up to them and tell them no...we will release it when it is ready

i can't guarantee that he will tell them that, but i think (and hope) he will

by the way Larusso

consider our intelligence reports the first work of civ3 fiction

[MarkG]

korn, infogrames is expecting a profit in the year june 2001-june 2002. almost all possibles dates for civ3 are in this period

[Urban Ranger]

Yin,

1. Potential October release.
2. Assuming #1, the virtual lack of info so close to release.
3. Experience.

In other words, sheer speculation

What sort of information are you expecting, apart from the usual ads? Why is this lack of info any sort of indicator?


Korn,

"i guess i am being completely oblivious to your intended sarcasm...but just in case you aren't trying to be funny"

My point was some people like Blizzard's stuff while others find it crap. I have never been impressed by any of the Blizzard games. Sure, they are highly polished. Sure, they have some great graphics. When you look deeper however there's nothing to be found. Nothing original - Warcraft didn't start the RTS genre; Westwood's Dune 2 is much older. Nothing deep. The single player campaigns are boring and the multiplayer online games are just as boring.

"Blizzard continues to cast a spell on players in the form of its Diablo expansion: Lord of Destruction"

A friend of my bought the expansion but couldn't get himself to play it.

" i seriously hope that you have heard of Starcraft, or Warcraft, or Diablo, or Blackthorne (hehe one of the first blizzard games i played it on the super nintendo)...but if not they are great games, not perfect but highly polished"

I had played Warcraft, Warcraft 2, and Starcraft. That's how I formed my perspective.

IMO it is wrong to compare Firaxis with Bizzard, but my reasons are completely different from Swissy's. It's an exercise of furtility to compare the so-called "RTS" (I can't see where the strategy part comes from) with TBS. The former requires very little in terms of game mechanism, just some whizbang graphics and a highly polished interface. The later not only can use great graphics and a polished UI but also deep game mechanism and sophisticated AI routines. You can tweak the latter two forever without releasing the game, so there must be some cut-off point that the development team says "This is good enough."

Sure, that is a very subjective judgement, relying solely on experience and an uncanny knack of what the gamers like. I don't see Sid has a problem with this.


LaRusso,

" Besides, there seems to be an almost unquestioned premise that the game NEEDS more time and that no amount of programming competence, wizardry or inspiration (plus hard work) can possibly make it ready by October."

Exactly my point. It's highly surprising that many people take this assumption for granted without questioning it.

[korn469]

Urban Ranger

do i detect turn based snobbery here?

My point was some people like Blizzard's stuff while others find it crap. I have never been impressed by any of the Blizzard games. Sure, they are highly polished. Sure, they have some great graphics. When you look deeper however there's nothing to be found. Nothing original - Warcraft didn't start the RTS genre; Westwood's Dune 2 is much older. Nothing deep. The single player campaigns are boring and the multiplayer online games are just as boring.

i know dune2 is much older, i've played it...and it really shows it's age

though i don't think that you can dismiss, high polished, well balanced, virtually bug free games just as easily as you do...you are also forgetting one of blizzard's strongest areas...cinematics, blizzard makes great movies

i think that there is just as much strategy in an RTS game as what there is in an TBS...it is the oldest argument in the book, (just as old as dune 2) to say there isn't any strategy in an RTS game, first thing that is a lie...if you don't have a good strategy you cannot win, no matter how fast you are...the computer is obviously a faster clicker than a person, but a good human player can beat an AI anyday because the AI has a very weak grasp of strategy...seeing as the TBS genre has been in a downturn for quite a while, it seems that the average player is saying that TBS games are old and boring...civ2 is maybe the most dominant TBS game since the birth of the RTS...and that is kind of sad

IMO it is wrong to compare Firaxis with Bizzard, but my reasons are completely different from Swissy's. It's an exercise of furtility to compare the so-called "RTS" (I can't see where the strategy part comes from) with TBS. The former requires very little in terms of game mechanism, just some whizbang graphics and a highly polished interface. The later not only can use great graphics and a polished UI but also deep game mechanism and sophisticated AI routines. You can tweak the latter two forever without releasing the game, so there must be some cut-off point that the development team says "This is good enough."

i don't think it is an exercise in futility at all to compare firaxis to blizzard, because i was looking past the RTS/TBS debate...i would also compare firaxis to Ion Storm (deus ex) or to id, or to Maxis for that matter...there are alot of different genre's out there, but that is secondary to making a quality product

a peice of crap is going to be crap no matter if it is a TB or a RTS, or a FPS, or a RPG, or a MMORPG, or a sim...if a game is riddled with bugs, lacking in any new content, and has an interface built by the professor on gilligan's isle then it is going to suck...

it doesn't take a genius to realize that a lamborgini is better than a ford pinto...

also i think that the AI routines in RTS games rival if not surpass the ones in TBS games...RTS probably relies more on good AI than a TBS game does...

i think one of the problems in the TBS genre is that it is stagnating because of lack of competition...if more TBS games were doing more and there were more companies out there then i think that TBS games could be better than ever...the FPS and MMORPGs have really benefited from competition

i don't want civ3 to be an anarchy online...where the game won't even load the patch, and where the reveiwers say they want to recommend the game but they can't

i want fully developed and balanced ideas in civ3, i want a relatively bug free gaming experiance, i'd like to see some new thing implemented in civ3 that are going to radically alter strategies, i'd like to see a slick and intuitive interface, and i wanna see more players in a game and an ai that doesn't get raped every single game

is that too much to ask for? maybe...but i think if firaxis ignores artificial deadlines like christmas, or E3, or whatever and just concentrates on making civ3 great, and releases it because it is ready (even if that means october...i would be more than happy with that) and not because there is one week in october left then i think civ3 will be able to satisfy us...and if we like it we will buy it and that will help firaxis

markg

well i do think civ3 when it comes out is going to do well to make a bunch of people at infogrames and at firaxis happy, no matter when that is (within reason of course)