The Pikeman Problem

[Maniac]

You all seem to be forgetting a Musketeers unit has 20 hit points and a Pikemen only 10. Essentially this doubles the Musketeers' strength from 3/3/1 to 6/6/1. Thus a Musketeers is always better than a 1/2*/1 Pikemen, even if he's veteran and defending against cavalry.

[Provost Harrison]

I never used Frigates. As you see, Ironclads are by far the better naval ship, and Transports are superior for moving units about. So I never found a place for this thing.

[Jarouik]

M@ni@c beat me to pointing out the fact that indeed, Musketeers' hit point rating is twice that of any earlier unit, as is the case with other units that come after Gunpowder. This makes them far better than earlier units. (This is evidenced by my experience of Musketeers being almost indispensible, so I prefer building Leo's and discovering Gunpowder as soon as possible to really get my cities' defenses above the attack capabilities of the average enemy unit or Barbarian. The fact that Musketeers are also strong enough to attack and destroy approaching enemy units makes them even more desirable.)

Secondly, I never liked Pikemen - although they are better defenders than Phalanx, in the early stages of the game I usually prefer to defend by attacking, even rush-building an Elephant/Crusader/whatever, as such units come in handy when waging early war, which often happens in my games. In addition, the discovery of Feudalism and thus Pikemen means Warriors become obsolete, so I can no longer build two very cheap units to keep a small city content enough to build settlers to expand, but rather am left with Pikemen as the cheapest unit. Feudalism therefore somewhat slows down your progress if you prefer expansion early on.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I never used Frigates. As you see, Ironclads are by far the better naval ship, and Transports are superior for moving units about. So I never found a place for this thing.

I agree - Frigates come in too late, so the discovery of Steam Engine isn't far off by the time you could build them, and before the age of the Ironclad I usually don't see so many AI ships trying to invade my continent, so I have no need for sea defense that early on. Or it could be just that I am so concentrated on expansion and growth of my individual cities in the middle game that I rarely devote resources to building fleets with attack power in the narrow timeframe before Ironclads become available. And for transportation purposes, I always build Triremes/Caravels/Galleons which automatically upgrade to Transports as long as I have Leo's... (actually I don't even remember if Frigates are upgraded to either Transports, Ironclads or Destroyers - which one is it, if any?)

[kittenOFchaos]

The point of going for frigates is that they outclass the defensive unit of the period (pikemen and phalanx) if the technology is headed for.

The frigates I find will be build just as I complete magellan´s voyage...it requires only A VERY SHORT period of time to capture the most important coastal cities and since the frigate can carry troopers expediture is low.


The idea that ironclads come in at the same time as frigates is nonsense...people just haven´t been targetting magnetism and thus haven´t had these weapons early and then value its multiple roles: war, exploration, colonisation and trading.

ON the downside musketteers do end the reign of the frigate UNLESS the frigate is veteran and DEPENDING on the terrain.

The frigate never gets upgraded by leonardoes...so use them when you can.

[Sabre2th]

Kitten: I find that an ironclad or three and a galleon/transport with a couple of musketeers easily accomplishes what you are talking about. These units can all be reused after, as well. If I built frigates to do this, I may accomplish my goal in the same amount of time, but the frigates are totally worthless after that, especially with enemy ironclads everywhere. I end up wasting more resources than I would save by building them.

In addition: The ironclad can explore just as well as the frigate, but has better defense. The ironclad is immeasurably more capable than the frigate, especially since it is upgraded to the destroyer later. Also- the transport, which also follows close behind the frigate, is faster and holds far more units.