Optimistic Civ3 reviews- Grin Grin

[Father Beast]

Those of you who are optimistically waiting for a great civ3, post your reviews of how you think it will be here.

I'm doing this because everyone has a lot of different features they are looking forward to, and what they hope to see. I'm posting Rah's review as an example to us all

[Father Beast]

originally posted by RAH in the "my review of civ3" thread.

Thanks Yin, I was away for a couple of days, and was pleased that you graced us
with your presence again. My biggest fears for problems with the AI and MP were
addressed by you in a most satisfying manner.
I am usually an optimist, but I truly enjoyed your work. In tribute I would like to add
my review, and hope (really hope) that the final product will fall somewhere in
between.
The GAME
I was happy that I decided not to pre-order that game. The first day of release, I
picked it up at Best Buy on sale while my brother was still waiting for his
pre-ordered copy to be shipped.
The box exceeded all my expectations. There was a majestic pattern on the box
with CIV III in impressive large letters, right along with Sid's name. Thank god the
box was water resistant so my tears easily wiped off. Just looking at the box made
me realize that this was CIV III and not CIV 2.5. The manual took up almost the
whole box. Half the manual covered all the new features of CIV III in easy to
understand writing. There was a comprehensive table of contents and a truly
functional index. After spending 8 hours reading the manual, I was ready to fulfill the
desires that had haunted me for all these years. I quickly hung up the poster
depicting ancient-modern combat artfully drawn by Frank Frazetta surrounding a
detailed tech tree. The full install took about 5 minutes and ran without a hitch.
There was an option on install so you could run the game without the CD in the
drive. The backup CD that they provided really made me feel like a valued customer.
They went a little more modern for the music and included cuts from the Back
Street Boys and other boy bands.

STARTUP
WOW the intro movie was mindblowing. It was better than the last Pink Floyd
concert I saw. It was definitely worth the 165 MB of disk space. I won't spoil it for
anyone but when the horde of rats eventually completely obscured the statue of
George Bush, I stood up and cheered.
The Tutorial was excellent and followed the instructions in the first chapter of the
manual perfectly.
If you use the default settings, you can fire up a game at "Loser" level in about 30
seconds. But for the more sophisticated player, there is a custom game setup that
has over 1000 possible things to customize. From the difficulty level all the way to
what color kilts the Scottish are wearing. I decided to customize a game and after
90 minutes, I was ready to go. It also allows you to save the customized settings to
save time in future games.

GRAPHICS
The intro and wonder movies were great. I'm sure after a few games, I'll just shut
them off. While the game graphics have improved, have no fear, the map still has
that fuzzy look with units that are hard to differentiate that we all got to be
comfortable with in CIV I and II.
It was again necessary to turn on the grid to avoid bad moves, especially down the
rivers.

GAME PLAY
You will be impressed. A lot of effort was put into this. While the GOTO command
doesn't work every time, it has improved dramatically. And for those cases that it
doesn't work, you are allowed to define routes between cities that will override the
goto command. And if you do this and you have a settler in one of the cities, you
can give it the build road command and click the other city, the settler will
automatically start building a road using the path that you defined. If you use the
automate irrigate command. It will go to the best square within the city range and
irrigate it, move to the next and continue. I will actually use the automate settler
commands in this version.

Resources added a new flavor, which I'll discuss in the AI section.
Trade is handled automatically. You still build caravans but you get the option of
where you will trade and the software keeps track of everything. It even calculates
the best item to build, etc.
The biggest improvement is stacking. Mixed armies fighting is a whole new
dimension. Your catapults can do damage from a distance. (thought that was a
no-brainer) Sometimes the defenders are better served by coming out of the city to
attack you.

Interfaces
Biggest difference. There are over 89 popup windows that let you control
everything. There's even a window that allows you to select groups of cities and
change all of their build queues at the same time. Also customized saved build
queues that even allows you to put in items that you don't have the technology for
yet. A real time saver. One new screen shows you 16 cities at a glance (full stat
view) to assist in Micro-management. Now I can micro manage every turn. This will
really be big in MP.

THE AI
All my worries about an awful AI went up in smoke after watching the AI for half an
hour. Stacking seems to have done the trick. The AI calculates (according to page
1,456 in the manual) the probability of success before initiating an attack. If the
prob to win is higher than 40% it attacks, if less it finds a defensive position and
waits for other units to make stacks. All the units move first towards stacks and
then the stacks move. Now when the AI asks for something, (i.e. to share a
resource) and threatens to come kick your ass. It means it. The first time I refused
to share some iron, the Mongols declared war, and within 7 turns a stack of 5
chariots and 4 hoplites showed up at my border and started trashing my border
cities. The days of defending your cities with a couple of units are over. You will
have to maintain a much larger military to hold your territory. And if you do it in
every city it will be costly, especially now that your troops are supported by your
nation instead of cities. I'm amazed at what a difference stacks makes. The AI is
still stupid and can't take advantage of city placements and resource use. But when
it has a stack of 12 units, the only strategy it needs is attack. Your couple of
pikeman fortified in the mountains blocking him will die quickly. Cities will fall.
The AI also like to include a spy or two in every stack just for fun. With stacks the
spys will do sabotage the same turn as the army attack. It's a lot easier for the AI
to coordinate a devastating attack with stacks. And heaven forbid if it has two
stacks heading your way. I swear one waited for the other so they could attack the
same turn. (I didn't think that was that hard to program) Since individual units are
rotated before the stacks move, there is more opportunity for coordinated attacks.
I even had the AI launch and Air attack from a carrier supporting a ground assault.
While you can get a general idea of the makeup of a stack, you need a spy to fully
expose what's in a stack. More knuckle biting when they appear. (same with barbs)

MP
I haven't played since everyone else is still waiting for their pre-ordered games to
ship, but I'm in heaven. Saved MP files are encrypted using a key based on your
game serial number. When you play a saved game, everyone machine save is
compared to verify no funny business. And you can't save a MP game as a scenario
unless all the players are currently in the game and type their passwords in. No
more peeking in between games or using two computers. I'm sure a sophisticated
hacker can bypass this, but it's going to take time, and be beyond most of our
abilities.
The customizing screen allows you to turn on/off almost every element of the game.
The maps are also designed for more of an equitable start (page 2,347 of the
manual)

It is all simultaneous move. When units meet, both units/stacks/city are frozen and
a randomizer decides who gets to use remaining movement points first. This
combined with stacks have solved most of people gripes about simul play. While the
combats take a little longer, the time advantage of Simul more than makes up the
difference. There is also an option of watching opponents combat, cool but it slows
the game down a bit.

IP/PBEM/SERVER/Peer to peer is supported.


OVERALL
This is the best CIV ever produced and I now don't feel so bad about waiting as
long as I have.
Rush out and buy this game.

RAH

Sorry for the length but what the hey.

[Father Beast]

OK, time for my review:

after all that waiting, I was wondering if it would be out for christmas (which it wasn't), Firaxis never budged from their "don't say when" policy until mid december, though various ads and websites kept promising christmas.
Well, it was worth the wait. FINALLY the store called to say my copy was in. I picked it up on the way home from work, and became dead to my family. (my wife says she understands, we had already agreed that this was to be my present, whenever it came out. she also made me dinner without interrupting my play.)

INSTALLATION:
It went fairly smoothly, didn't complain at not being installed to the default location. Nice things, it gave me the options of which pieces of multimedia to install, the intros, wonder movies, high council, animated leaders, animated units, pick and choose what you like. I can also go back and uninstall in parts at will. don't need the CD to play, but it says you need the CD to adjust installed parts.

MANUAL:
read some during installation. lots of recap for people who don't play civ. Big big section on improvements from civ2, and the back half concerns the editing suite. an apparently comprehensive section. Unlike the civ2 manual, it gave lissts of improvements and wonders, with their actual effect. none of that vague "increases" stuff here. big section on culture, how it works, exactly when it will expand, etc. I got so involved that the installation was done and waiting for me for 5 minutes before I noticed.

INTRO:
Really, really cool. Look like they incorporated a lot of the mood from the old civ1 game starting. Like the cooling of the planet and the rising of life on earth. Then we get some fire, road building, and soon we see the planet covered with cities and traffic. I was mesmerized with the progression when I saw what looks a lot like the AC Unity come around the planet in orbit. as it passed in front of me, It launched off for, well, you know...

Got to go, will finish this later

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Edit: This is not as much a review as a detailed account of what may happen. It's also not a bad piece of prose.


Aaah, at last. The gods' sun shineth upon my brow, and here I stand in a store that has Civ3 proud upon it's shelves.
As I near the games section, my eyes shine and my heart swells. This is it.
And then I look at the box. My heart misses a beat. Though marvelously decorated, the box is one of these small, annoying plastic ones. What have they done? There's no chance a manual would fit there!
With shaking hands I take the case, open it. My heart falls, and my soul cries. A small, skimpy installation guide, and that is all.
But no. I will buy it, no matter what. It's the principle.
I walk up to the counter, tears fighting at the gates to my eyes. Money changes hands, and I turn to leave. But before I do so, casting a last look at the now dark, depressing store, the sales-lady hands me a thin plastic package, about a meter wide and long, upon which in shiny letters it is written, the magic word. Civilization.
I leave for home, with the parcel in my hands. Already I have forgotten my troubles, and my hands sweat and tremble in anticipation.
Once at the computer, I break the case open again, and I am amazed. In my earlier depression I have missed the obvious and essential; Two disks.
Two disks! My heart races in my chest, it's pain and my excitement swallow my entire being. On one disk the familiar logo is etched, and on the other 'tis writ, Designer pack and manual. Designer pack and manual! What is this? But even the greatest excitement does not rob me entirely of my senses. Excited I put the first CD in the drive, and wait as the autorun launches the install program. There are not many options, just the usual ones of game files, movies, sound. I install everything, a healthy gigabyte, and sit back awed as a beautiful narrative describes the rise of great civilizations.
Then I run the second disk, itching to see what they meant. This time the autorun has two options, install the Designer Pack or view the Manual. I am not very interested in designing right now, so I choose the manual.
Immidiately upon the press of the button, a beautiful cinematic starts to play. The universe unfolds, the solar system develops and runs it's course for millions and millions of years compressed into but a few instants. Then Man appears upon the earth, and evolves, discovering tools, fire, and eventually the alphabet. I was as awe-stricken as the primitive man who opened the first book and started to write the first symbols upon the coarse material.
Then the movie ends, and a beautiful, leather-bound volume is rendered upon the screen. With my mouse I open the leaves, and all the wonders of the beautiful game manual leap at me with warm greeting. Sight, sound and movement, that monumental piece is magical to read.
The great secrets of the new game unfold before me as clear language, voice and video clips join forces to explain the workings of the greatest masterpiece of computer gaming. In but a few hours, I know all that the manual can give me. It is now time to play the game.

To Be Continued...

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Now I am ready for the real experience, the game itself. I click upon the link, and watch as the magic unfolds.
Blackness. Empty, still blackness.
Then a faint music starts to play, harps and flutes begin from quiet, almost silent play to great and impressive music of drums and organs and stars begin to twinkle one by one out of the dark, and an infinite light is projected upon me. The endless hosts of the universe muster, preparing the stage for Time's greatest drama. The stars begin to spin, fall out of the vision's edge, as the picture closes in towards a central, focal point, where a medium-sized yellow star is shining upon nine planets. The view pans towards the center, and zooms further, towards a small speck of light. Blue and green and white collide.
The winds blow strong at the endless grasslands, where countless animals roam, large and small. They run, deathly afraid. For after them chases the most powerful species upon their small planet circling a sun.
Man.
Spear in hand he chases them, and hunts them and lives and triumphs. He discoveres technology, lights fire, and writes the first words. He rises from his villages in great numbers, goes forth to war. Great armies clash while great minds hold the image of the future. Man's future, Man's ultimate fate.
Civilization.
The Journey has begun.
As I go through the setup screen, I choose from the many options those that fit me best. There are many options there, but they are carefully positioned and aligend, and I, with the knowledge and understanding acquired by the magnificent manual, behold upon my first city in but a few minutes.
The graphics are magnificent. At the high-resolution mode I've chosen, one feels as if every one of the small village's huts is visible. A defensive unit is mustered shortly, and then I face the desicion. Settler or worker. After a while of thought, I decide to build a worker first. Having noticed a bronze mine but a few squares away, I make up my mind to build a colony there.
A colony is built shortly, and my town have also managed to produce a temple to quell the spirits of citizens and raise those of warriors. But just as the steady influx of bronze and culture improves my units, a barbarian lord hails at my doorstop. In storm he sacks the mines and stands before the gates of my first city. But the spirits are strong and the swords are sharp, and the barbarians are swept away in one swift battle. Now, looking behind, I realize that had I built a settler, not only would I have no time to build a temple and reinforcements having less time and population, the roads wouldn't have been complete, and the depressed and underequipped soldiers of my budding realm would have been squashed like insignificant bugs beneath the merciless boot of the barbarians.
After a while and several unsucessful barbarian raids upon my growing empire the barbarian focal points are destroyed and the kingdom is allowed to grow in peace. But that peaceful isolation does not survive the landing of a single Trireme upon the shores of my island. Those are the Spanish, and they're out for the bright glow of gold. Tributes and ransoms are given, treaties are signed and broken. A long war is fought, great battles are resolved, but the superior morale of my soldiers, who know the gods stand strong behind them, casting favoring eye upon the many temples and sacrifices eventually drive the infidels out. A great fleet is built, and legions upon legious are sent unto the unknowable waters of the ocean.
The ships arrive at alien shores, where the Spanish have all but conquered the once-glorious empire of the Chinese, who now held their ground at a small pocket of a few great cities and iron mines. Signing a treaty with the Chinese, I have made a great oath to set foot upon this land and liberate their empire. Superior weaponry and tactics eventually crush the Spanish and the final battle is fought as my new weapons of destruction, the iron beasts called cannons ravage the walls of the great Spanish city of Madrid. An empire is mine, along with the greatest gift of friendship of the Chinese, to whom I have returned their former empire. Great monies and technologies spring from that union, as the wise scrolls of my allies team with mine to produce the greatest marvels upon this earth.

May Be Continued...

Note: this sounds a lot like Civ2, but note the fine differences... This is how Civ3 CAN be.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

The second part was a careful reverse-engineering of the new culture, trade and diplomacy concepts. There was one thing that I've totally invented, and it's the research pooling between closely allied nations like what was in the Arab world a millenium ago, and the "official" liberation of other nation's territory like WW2.
I'd like to see if you can work out the (pretty simplistic) reasons for how it all worked and why each one lost or won.
(now THAT's constructive optimism, Yin )

[Rommel393]

Come on people be realistic.....

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Down with realism! It's a game, after all

[Father Beast]

Rommel-
go post your evil reviews and comments on reviews somewhere else.

Mark-
Good going! you have the right attitude, although I have some difficulty telling from your prose the gameplay involved. it seems more like a viking than a review. still, keep it up!

[Father Beast]

Continuing my review...

STARTUP:
Not really anything unfamiliar, although the custom rules button reveals a LOT more options than you're used to. Simplified combat is still there, along with "leaders not required for stacking", and "simplified trade", which means that the resource system is gotten rid of and replaced with the old tile bonuses of civ2.
I accepted the defaults and got right into it.

GRAPHICS:
To my surprise, I am impressed. The y look a little like the pics in the early screenshots, but somehow more polished, better looking, crisper. The unit animations are allright, I'll probably turn them off soon along with the leader animations. The Wonder Movies are another matter. Most of them are in CGI instead of that grainy pseudo film form, and that really adds to the experience. When I built the collossus and saw the movie which ended with a panoramic view of the statue standing on the promontory, I stood up and cheered for the industry of my people! The Animated High Council is Kind of cool. I've yet to see if their advice is as bad, but they sure are as funny as ever.
CITY VIEW is fantastic. it reflects the type of tile you built on, little people (and later on, vehicles) roam the streets, and units you have there stand guard at the entrances. Improvements in progress are shown as half finished buildings, and when you finish one, it shows a 2 second animation of the building being built in the city view.

SOUND:
something of an improvement, adds to the atmosphere somewhat. It seems they've put in a HOMM style background sound associated with the terrain type the selected unit is on. it's OK.

be back for more. my notes on gameplay to come....

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

The gameplay is in there, concealed. The things happened there not just so, but because of reasons that are connected to the new gameplay features.
For example, the reason I have driven out the Spanish was my extensive investment in culture and therefore better technology and troop morale. The Chinese lost because of inefficient resource managment (they only had a central, 'unbreakable' region while their outer provinces were ill-developed and poorly defended). The Spanish eventually lost because they only invested in military and therefore were a low-quality civ, meaning that they had little resources (which they could get via diplomacy with the Chinese - they would have beaten me in the first place if they traded for the iron), and little culture, and therefore worse morale (which is an abstraction of both worse troop morale and worse generals). Teaming up with the Chinese, pooling resources and all boosted economy (resources *and* cash) and science(resulting in the development of gunpowder that won the war), and the thought of liberating the land of an ally improved trop morale, like in the two world wars. In fact, if this inspires Firaxis to put those two treaties in the game my work here is done!
Also, check out my explanation of colonies in there.
When I'll think of more, I'll demonstrate

[Sabre2th]

You guys have too much free time.

[Stefu]

Rah's review was great. A wonderful exercise in sarcasm, I must say

[rah]

Thanks, stefu. Thanks to Yin, I really wanted to do a generally optimistic review, but I just couldn't resist making a few jabs here and there. I'm glad someone appreciated them.

RAH
Still the optimist however. A game doesn't have to be perfect to be great. (i.e. CIV II)

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by rah
A game doesn't have to be perfect to be great. (i.e. CIV II)

Exactly.

[loinburger]

I thought that reviews usually come out after the game has been, well, reviewed? :banned:

[EDIT]
My bad, I didn't realize that everybody was being sarcastic.

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by technophile
I thought that reviews usually come out after the game has been, well, reviewed? :banned:

It's more a preview of what they would like/not like and the possibilities for civ.

[Father Beast]

continuing my review...

INTERFACE:
Really cool. tok all those AC improvements and added a bit too, although superficially looking the same as the Civ2 interface. no more of thse zillion popups at the end of turn anymore. The build queue is back with a vengeance. I can set a default build queue for new cities, and even set a city to build and sell an improvement over and over (something I used to do for extra cash in the days before capitalization). The city screen has column tabs which allow for resorting your cities by size, production, happiness, item producing, etc. You can also select a group of cities and set build queues for all at once. wow...

GAMEPLAY:
I can't describe how fun this is to play. Going after resources is fascinating, and figuring out how to weasel them out of your neighbors for as cheap as possible is also fascinating. the trade/diplomacy menu is a BIG step up from the old pathetic den=manding techs and cash we used to have. back and forth haggling is a big pull (at least to me). You can get cheating when you discover what the particular civ values the most, and foist something useless onto the from that category, but they seem to mostly refuse bad deals. on the higher levels, I couldn't get resources for making advanced units unless I agreed to pay a LOT of gold per turn.
Oh, and did I mention that the first time I met a foreign unit, I didn't know what it was? it turned out to be a warrior, it just had a different picture than my warriors. it seems that each civ has its own set of graphics. neat.
CULTURE:
This seems to make the biggest difference to me. those who have it, prosper. those who don't get left in the dust. part of this is the army making leaders. The only way to attack with stacked units is to have a leader show up and make an army. if your culture is low, few to none of these leaders ever show up, and you can be trounced by the efficient fighting stacks of the culturally elite.
similarly, other leaders, such as those associated with wonders, are attracted by a high culture rating. Copernicus, for instance, is neccesary to build Copernicus' Observatory. If you don't build for him, he might up and head to another civ that will. Some greedy civs have traded him away, though. And if you take the city that is building his observatory, there's a chance you might capture Copernicus himself, too. Then you would be able to start building it.

AI:
I'm not much of a judge here, not being that good of a player, but my use of the cheat menu has revealed all sorts of strategies used by different civs. some are building just units and cities, some seem to follow a sort of perfectionist strategy, and I even saw one civ build only coastal cities and make a huge navy.
more about this in the EDITOR section.

WORKERS/SETTLERS:
I love these guys! settlers are just for founding cities, and Workers do all these tile improvements. I can set a job queue for a worker, and even draw lines for him to build roads on. There doesn't seem to be the civ2 limit of worker helps, so if you have enough, you can get ANY job done in one turn. Workers don't cost nearly as much as settlers, and I can really crank them out. Both can join their pop points to cities, but Workers are so much cheaper that I only build a settler to found a new city, then pump up its pop with workers as needed.


What a great game! But there's something more!

EDITOR:
The civ3 editing suite comes on a separate CD, and requires separate installation. you have to have Civ3 installed to use the editor, but you don't have to have the editor installed to play civ3 or use scenarios and mods.

Once you are running the editor, it integrates with the civ3 program so you can play with your scenario whenever you want. You can edit units like in the old rules.txt, but its on an easier interface now, with places to select or deselct certain unit abilities. You can also change around which civs have which unique units, or give all of them to one civ, or make all units unique to a civ. change the tech requirements, resource requirements, whatever you want.

The interface for making custom wonders and improvements is just as comprehensive. there are a variety of effects you can choose from, and can make improvements obsolete just like wonders. Kind of like the old obsoleting of barracks, but more customizable.
Governments can also be customized at will, with an SE like series of bars on which to make your settings.

The map editor can place resources, pollution and tile improvements wherever you want. you can even set roads on the ocean, strange as that sounds (and yes, my units have walked on them. I was thinking of designing a world with a few ancient bridges that could be pillaged if I wanted to cut off an attacker. but make it so they couldn't be rebuilt.) You can set the values for tiles, too, and even make it possible to build roads on the ocean. You can set which improvements are possible to the worker, and its successor the engineer.

According to the manual, the AI can also be adjusted. this has to do with some special language they are using. I don't get it, but I think I could do something with it if I tried. It talked a lot about triggers and threshholds and stuff I can't quite follow. I sure hope somebody can make use of this.

I give this game 2 thumbs up, and the editor (though I probably won't make much use of it myself, I drool at what some of our guys might do) gets another 2 thumbs up.

[loinburger]

Alright, here's my review:

Civ III is released in late 2001, and technophile waits to buy the game until others have already reviewed it.

PC Gamer gives Civ III "104%, the best game that has ever been made, ever, really, we're not joking!" In the same issue PC Gamer gives "Redneck Rampage 5, Bubba Gets Jiggy With It" a rating of 98%. technophile vows to never read PC Gamer again, and looks for other sources of reviews.

He asks his brother what he thinks of the game. technophile's brother is the person who first introduced technophile to the Civ series, and Civ II is one of his brother's favorite games of all time. However, when asked what he thought of Civ III, his brother admits that for the past four years the only computer games that he has played have been Solitaire and Minesweeper. Apparently, technophile's brother's girlfriend does not like video games, and technophile's brother is whipped. technophile continues his quest for an honest review of the game.

He had hoped that Apolyton would be a good source for reviews; however, shortly after the release of the game, the Civ III forum dissolves into a brutal flame war that results in the temporary banning of no less than 32 posters, most of whom never return. The subject of the flame war was whether Civ III is the "bestest game of all time" or "a stinking pile of dog ****." It did not appear that ANYBODY took a middle position in the argument, with the exception of Alexander's Horse, who no longer has any time to post on Apolyton after his wife suddenly has quintuplets.

technophile's quest for a decent review is suddenly cut short, however, when Fallout III and Deus Ex II are both released. technophile purchases both games. He spends the next couple months beating both games (he does this several times so as to see all 23 endings to Fallout III and all 12 endings to Deus Ex II). In the ensuing joy, technophile completely forgets about Civ III.

Two years later he finds the game in a used software dealer, marked down to ten dollars. He buys it; it holds his interest for awhile, but after a couple of months he loses interest. His final verdict is "Not enough 'splosions."

[Father Beast]

Poor guy technophile.
"king of pain" indeed.