The Best cost-efficient SE for an optimal overall strategy

EtheMind · August 3, 2001, 01:49

First a look into overall strategies...

For me it has become customary to divide factions into two distinct categories based on their social priorities, nature and most cost-efficient overall strategy. Dictatorian factions pursue power on the expense of infrastructure and economy, warfare is essential for the success of faction. Democratic factions put their efforts into infrastructure and peacetime development.

Dictatorian : Hive, Sparta, Believers
Democratic : Peacekeepers, Gaians, Morganites, University

Other way to make distinction between faction strategies is to sort them by their primary intrest. To great extent this is a subject of opinion, of course.

Explore : Gaians
Discover : University of Planet, Peacekeepers
Build : Morgan
Conquer : Believers, Spartans, Hive

There's also some victory conditions which some factions clearly aim for. UoP go for Trancend, PKs Diplomatic, Morgan for Economic. Other factions mostly have best chance at Trancend, Diplomatic or Conquer.

Then factions with their most cost-efficient SE, IMHO...

University
Democracy, Free Market/Green, Knowledge/Wealth, Cybernetic/Eudaimonic

University is definitely for Democracy. I've used Free Market with success, but in the early game +1 Drone is bad enough making Free Market very hard to sustain. Playing as UoP though you have the most realistic aim for VW, and HGP is not far away either. Green makes a good early economy in case you don't succeed to get the support for FreeMarket. Knowledge seems as best option in most of the cases. Future Societies are an open question but if in FreeMarket one would probably take Cybernetic. And if Green, Eudaimonic.

Peacekeepers
Democracy, Planned/Free Market, Knowledge/Wealth, Cybernetic/Eudaimonic

Democracy for Peacekeepers, that's a sure one. Because of PKs' 2x multiplyer for votes and +1 Talent it makes sense for them to pursue Planned for the Growth bonus. Then again, +1 Talents makes it that much more easy to run FM, it might come into use if you don't need that Growth bonus. It's also easier to pursue GA when playing PKs, amd Democracy, CC and GA is enough to get Population boom anyway. When it comes into Values, PKs go well with Knowledge and Wealth and if you need to "punk some heads", Power doesn't hold them back in any significant manner either. Cybernetic makes sense because of its efficiency advantage, in this point of game one usually can use some efficiency anyway. Which future society comes into question depends upon your other social choices.

Gaians
Democracy, Green, Wealth/Knowledge, Cybernetic/Eudaimonic

The late game boosting +2 Efficiency opens a lot of doors for Gaians. Considering their -Police and -Morale they don't serve well in Police State or Fundamentalism. I would make most out of their Planet advantage and go for green hippie style. Wealth could also come handy considering their emphasis of native life forms. Inherent penalty of Moral makes it that much harder to create a well-trained conventional army in the early-mid game. Maximing efficiency in very large empires, Knowledge may come useful and the late game options stay open for Gaians. Cybernetic grants them +5 Planet, 50% Combat bonus, and native life is probably the best way for Gaian to go until they start to have enough high tech to sustain conventional army with reasonable costs and power. Eudaimonic is nice though, if you run Knowledge and want that +1 energy per square.

Morgan
Democracy, Free Market, Wealth/Knowledge, Eudaimonic/Cybernetic

As Morgan I wouldn't consider any less economy supporting politics than Democracy. Having good relations and relatively small faction with all the possible Economy turned on makes a nice trip to wealth but even minor "over expansion" calls for more efficiency. It's usually a good idea to limit your size when playing as Morgan and choose to go all wealth. That makes SE pretty simple.

Believers
Fundamentalist, Green, Power, Thought Control/Cybernetic

I think our beloved believers leave little choice for leaders in their SE settings. Miriam can pack a great deal of punch and very early on if used wisely. But Miriam's faction calls for arms more than any other faction. Constant probing and invasion are essential when playing Miriam. Constant offense is usually only way to keep up with Technocrats, in fact, I usually halt all research after I establish sufficient probing network. One of the main themes when playing as Miriam are constant drone difficulties being the only dictatorian with no Police advantage.

Spartans
Police State/Fundamentalism, Green, Power/Knowledge, Thought Control/Cybernetic

It's good to notice that since Spartans don't have any economy/research restrictions as other dictatorships it's completely possible to pursue more Build centered strategy. Considering their nature and advantages though, this doesn't make much sense. I'd go for Police State to get that early Support bonus and +3 Police. Fundamentalism works well with their Morale but I don't really see +2 Probe that useful. You will most probably need Green to neutralize efficiency penalty, and you are going to have more than few bases if you play Spartans anyway. Spartans prefer Power, nice, but it's not necessarily in need when you consider they already have +2 Morale and with Police State they have enough Support.
Eudaimonia sacrifises Morale to the altar of humanism, absurd for Spartans. Cybernetic disarms you top notch police forces. And you probably don't have any adv. facilities to deal with discontempt citizens often preferred as Drones. And Thought Control is cool

Hive
Police State, Planned, Knowledge, Cybernetic

The SE for Hive is predestinated if you ask me. You have to aim for high population Growth and good Industry, controlled and supported by Police State. Police State seems to make only reasonable Politics setting in any given situation when playing Hive. Wealth might seem to support that Industry and lift off penalties in Economy. But in most situations I find Knowledge only way to go, unless in heavy conflict with enemy which might call for Power. The Hive usaully becomes large faction(up to you of course), both inefficiency and associated b-drones are tough problems to chew on. But it's a safest choice for fast expansion and fundamental production.

You don't agree? I'd be worried if you do

...

korn469 · August 3, 2001, 02:14

EtheMind

you have the spartans completely wrong...they are arguably one of the best research factions, and they are without a doubt the best free market faction, while other faction get tied down by drones, a police/fm/kno spartans can actually fight and have advanced weaponry...this would give them

+2 economy
+2 research
+2 support
-1 industry
-1 efficency
-2 police
-2 probe
-3 planet

when they aren't at war (they should always be at war) then they can switch to dem and really start researching...also if you get the AV then they can switch out of police state to dem full time if you wish to make them an agressive research faction

Blake · August 3, 2001, 04:38

I actually think all the value choices are viable for Hive,

Wealth: Great for building, +3 industry is fantastic, and the +1 econ has the effect of +1 energy per base, which may come in usfull, particullary on low native life worlds. (no worm cash). Also you should bee-line to IndAuto for crawlers, so wealth comes early, and is simply too good to pass by, atleast in the early game.

Knowledge: +2 research at expense of -2 probe, that really is a tough call for Yang (the effic bonus is lost due to how immunity works), if your pursuing builder strategy you should probably run wealth for quicker facility builds, if your not you'll be wanting to do fairly extensive probing for tech, and you do NOT want to make it easy for your enemy to probe away your attack force. Knowledge simply doesn't build on any of the Hives strengths, prehaps if your isolated and in a slow tech game...

Power: Power brings support to +4, which is nice if you have used wealth to accelerate infrastructure development, and have big bases. The morale allows easy elite units, elite groundpounders are fantastic for yang. The tradeoff is you only have standard industry (altough standard industry is hardly bad). However military unit construction can be done in Wealth, then switch to power for the offensive, altough the wealth units wont be elite, they'll be plentifull.

My strategy usually revolves around wealth in peace-time, with a switch to power when it's time to kick some butt. Really, there is no ultimate Values for hive.

Future choices: Cyber suffers the same penalties as Knowledge - the effic bonus is lost, making it +2 research for -3 police (Yang, without his police?!). This is not a tradeoff I would make (except maybe at gunpoint). I would tend towards Thoughtcontrol in wartime and Eudo in peacetime, with decent terraforming Yang can easily afford clean reactors, with PS/Power/TC yang still has +1 support, if all formers/garrisons are clean then that's 3 top-quality military units supported free.

cbn · August 3, 2001, 07:56

I have been doing a lot of consideration on the SE choices for the Hive and PS/Planned are naturals. Then I see all 3 of Power/Knowledge/wealth as viable but I generally prefer Wealth for the industry an economic kick. AS Blake pointed out, the efficiency modifier for knowledge is negated by PS/planned and the inefficiency immunity combo. I generally like the industry and economic kick just a little more than a research bonus. I have learned to live with the morale penalties of wealth

.

Overall, I find that I vary the SE choices of the Hive the least of all the factions. With most other factions there are usually clear benefits from FM (much energy), Planned (pop boom) and Green ( catch a few worms and go lab crazy with high efficiency). But with the Hive I find they are so dogmatic and once you get used to PS/Planned its often hard to find good reasons to get out of it.

EtheMind · August 3, 2001, 13:15

korn469. Your point is well stated and argumented, and I've heard similar views of Spartan strategies. I can't say though that the Spartans are one the best research factions.
They make a surprisingly fair faction to pursue more scientific approach and have very nice police control and military bonuses. But negative efficiency or +1 efficiency simply isn't a bargain.
I did pointed out(did I?

) that Spartans don't have any economy restricting penalties so they make a nice choice for those who wish to do more than pick a fight.

I think Wealth is best for Hive in most cases. Didn't knew that +1 Efficiency by Knowledge got negatiated by PS/Planned. Makes little sense to run Knowledge then. Power goes if you're a warmonger.

Quote:

But with the Hive I find they are so dogmatic and once you get used to PS/Planned its often hard to find good reasons to get out of it.

That is just true if you ask me. Think about it. You have PS and Planned without any penalties, makes a nice match and if that's your basis of society in the early years. I see no reason to change it later on. Hive just isn't Economy faction, and won't be unless you want to sacrifise just about everything else. You have to play Hive with the Hive attitude

WhiteElephants · August 3, 2001, 17:10

I assume your looking for some consturctive criticism and since I, more often than not, play the Gaians I thought I point out that I try to run Planned as early as possible with them.

The reason I like using the Gaians isn't so much for their +1 Planet, but for the +2 efficency. Running Planned doesn't cost them any negatives because of the +2 inherent bonus for this faction so you can still build up to 6 bases on a standard sized map before getting any bueracracy drones. I'll often expand beyond this point dealing with the b-drones by using doctors until I'm comfortable with my expansion, stop, and switch to Demo thereby, somewhat relieving me of those pesky b-drones. On top of that I'm only missing a creche to begin pop booming.

I'll often stay in this setting for the most part of the game. I just don't find that the -2 growth is worth the +2 Eff and +2 Planet, besides I'd have +6 Eff if I switch out of Planned which I feel is an overkill unless your running a MASSIVE sized empire, which in that case you'd simply have to run Green. I'm also not fond of the native lifeforms (save for the Isles of the Deep) I feel they cost too much and a Planet rating only effects attack not defense, so as strong as a mindworm gets it still defends at 2:3 without any modifiers -- not good especially considering trance and empath are free abilities to put on your vanilla scout defender, which incidentaly cost about 1/4 the mineral value of a mindworm and can be upgraded to whatever configuration to handle whatever is attacking.

Other than that I think Knowledge and Wealth are fine SE choices, though should a war erupt I think Power and Fundy aren't all that bad. I'm hard pressed to say that there is a SE choice I just wouldn't use. I do have an aversion to Police State, yet I see possibility there because like Planned your not falling into the red with your efficency.

WhiteElephants, "Mindworm Mindworm"

WhiteElephants · August 3, 2001, 17:14

No whammy... no whammy... STOP!

EtheMind · August 4, 2001, 13:37

Constructive criticism? You're undermining my authority!?...

OK. I did judge Gaia from a Green point of view. But because of that +2 Efficiency, which is very nice indeed, you do have more than one strategy to use when playing them. Other reason for me to prefer Green is because I go for those "MASSIVE" sized empires when playing Gaians. I think expansion almost always pays off and especially when playing efficient faction.

I stick with my belief that Planet bonus does effect both attack and defense, until the wise men completely rule my view out of the thread.

In either case, one should not underestimate the potentials of PSI combat. With Green you have no problem expanding as you will and capture masses of native life. Many other factions have no tools or means to deal with PSI offensive in the early game. It does require a lot of concentration, and, yes Mindworms are expensive, too expensive in many cases. But with those captured worms alone you can pose a threat in the early game.

Cybergod · August 5, 2001, 13:36

Quote:

Originally posted by EtheMind
I stick with my belief that Planet bonus does effect both attack and defense, until the wise men completely rule my view out of the thread.

And so came a wise man called Cybergod with the wise choice of words:

"No it doesn't!!!"

translation: "The Planet bonus only affects attack."

"Don't you ever pay attention at the combat screen?"

translation: "No I don't either..."

EtheMind · August 5, 2001, 14:30

Have I ever stated by ignorant repulsion against men wiser than me?

...I won't go against Warlord

I believe you wise man!

Well, even if this thread turned out to be repetition of obvious facts. It was nice to be right for a while....that's before Cybergod came along

...

Don't make the ultimate mistake of taking me seriously.

Lefty Scaevola · August 5, 2001, 15:03

The "when" is usually more important than the" who" for deciding which SE combination, even after you have several choices. Free Market works great form small base and no offensive war (early game), demo/planned for pop booming and racing to finish those early and mid secrete projects, wealth give an early boost to builders, but is usually supplanted by knowledge, when at war, particularly offensive war, or if playing a momentum game, you go to using fundy or power, if you have lots of huge bases, it is planet & efficiency above all (500+ bases in the 20+ size its demo/green/knowlege/cybernetic).

EtheMind · August 6, 2001, 02:03

Someone made a point...let's follow.

I used to be like you Lefty, then I started taking my ideology seriously

Usually I like to play with same choices pretty much the whole game. This is because it gives me the advantage of planning my society to support these social choices in optimal manner. Or maybe I just like to make an idealist stand. It's more than possible to survive through bad times even in wealth, it just takes a lot of resources and energy to fight a war. And makes it impossible to invest into peaceful development. In many ways, changing SE choices as the game progresses is useful when you worship the practise and immediate gain. But I usually only tweak my holy choices in favor of efficiency if I take more expansive role.

Cybergod · August 6, 2001, 18:51

I am a hybrid player so I do not feel naturaly drawn to any particular SE but I most usually, when I've well established my empire, kick in either Green (for reducing ED) or FM (for cash since I've got RCs in place). I most usually run knowledge, since I don't find the -2 probe much of a drawback since I build "home-probes" a lot and a probe negative is therefore unimportant to me. If I am racing for SPs I go wealth and I have never yet run Power without the CV because I feel the -2 industry is a mayor drawback for me (my most important priorities are effic and industry). I don't choose democratic until mid-game or until I get to bureocracy limit.

I almost always finish the game before the Future Societies come in so I don't really use those

, but I find all the choices appealling depending on which situation I might be in.

This post just agrees on Lefty's statement that the question is more of a "when". EtheMind, I am not much of an ideologies but I avoid Police State like plaque for some reason! And do not judge me by the stupid Apolyton rank (Warlord) since it only means how many posts I've sent - not how successful I am at SMAC

.

EtheMind · August 9, 2001, 04:09

I like to play knowledge, because of efficiency you always get a bit more research from knowledge than you do from wealth. But if I play Morgan, FM & Wealth with GA gives you that +5 Economy, too much energy to overlook.
For me Power is preserved for emergencies which doesn't oftenly occure in SP games. It gives you very nice advantages for military though but -industry also effects unit production, so it's little contradictory.

Quote:

And do not judge me by the stupid Apolyton rank (Warlord) since it only means how many posts I've sent - not how successful I am at SMAC

Sorry...I'm just so familiar with the class system

Cybergod · August 9, 2001, 13:50

Run Fundy, Planned and Knowledge as Deidre, you get in total:

+2 GROWTH
+1 INDUSTRY
+1 PLANET
+1 EFFIC
0 MORALE (the negative is balanced out)
-1 POLICE

Although this may seem a far solution as the Gaians, the -1 POLICE can virtually be ignored - if it means that much to you, get the Ascentic Virtues. For FS, run either Cyber (for the +4 PLANET and other favourable effects but watch out for those drones!) or Eudaimonic for the obvious bonuses and this means only the usual -1 MORALE to your conventional units.

Quote:

Sorry...I'm just so familiar with the class system

EtheMind, you technocratic pig!

Nadexander · August 9, 2001, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybergod
Run Fundy, Planned and Knowledge as Deidre, you get in total:

+2 GROWTH
+1 INDUSTRY
+1 PLANET
+1 EFFIC
0 MORALE (the negative is balanced out)
-1 POLICE

Although this may seem a far solution as the Gaians, the -1 POLICE can virtually be ignored - if it means that much to you, get the Ascentic Virtues. For FS, run either Cyber (for the +4 PLANET and other favourable effects but watch out for those drones!) or Eudaimonic for the obvious bonuses and this means only the usual -1 MORALE to your conventional units.

Lets compare this to Demo/Green/Wealth

+6 Efficiency!!!
+1 industry
+1 econ
+3 planet
-2 Support
-1 police
-3 morale

This SE setting for diedre is clearly superior to fundy/planned/knowledge in almost every way. Children's creches will make the morale a non-issue (and a bonus when using native units w/ CC) and -2 support is not much of an issue between crawlers and clean reactors. The real kickers are +6 efficiency, +1 econ, +3 planet. These are high powered bonuses that play to diedre's strengths and minimize her weaknesses. Some social engineering choices really dont make sense regardless of the situation.

-Nadexander

EtheMind · August 10, 2001, 00:26

Your solution was interesting Cybergod

...don't worry though, I'm still going stick with my class associated thinking, and you're the Warlord

But I honestly don't think those choices really play Gaians all that efficiently. What you get from Fundamentalism is negated by Knowledge and Gaian inherent disadvantage. Your inherent efficiency is negated by Planned. You get many advantages sure, but none of them is very dominant...is 'negated' a real english consept?

I might go for Nadexander's choices and try to achieve GAs for +2 Economy, or possibly Knowledge because of that -3 Morale in Wealth. Also if I play Gaians I am going to expand as much as possible and might even want +7 Efficiency for the biggest maps.

The Commodore · August 10, 2001, 22:03

Looks at thread.

Nods.

Looks back a first post.

Has heart attack.

You...you...you...have the...GAUL, to sujest putting Morgan into FM!?!

Unless you're going for +5 econ, at the expense of everything else, DON"T DARE PUT HIM IN FM! He doesn't need it for +1 econ, he gets that with just Wealth. FM is a economy of pain, unless you're Spartan, and if there's any other way to get +2 econ, use the other way. The -2 morale of wealth isn't so bad: Native life from CC's get bigger morale boons, the lower your SE morale is.

Misotu · August 11, 2001, 00:20

This is probably heresy, but I don't think I've ever used Demo/Green/X as the Gaians except if I have the Cloning Vats. Otherwise, I really want the growth, thank you very much

You don't care about morale unless you are playing the Gaians as a momentum faction. This is, of course, a perfectly valid option because they can amass a native army in short order given a little luck. But if you play Gaia as a builder, the morale aspect is mostly defensive. Build creches and they will not only deliver the Demo/Planned pop boom, but also cancel all negative morale effects for defensive units.

Heaven

Blake · August 11, 2001, 03:32

Quote:

Originally posted by The Commodore
You...you...you...have the...GAUL, to sujest putting Morgan into FM!?!

Actually, I almost always run FM when morgan. A number of reasons:
+X energy per base. This is really great if you have many small bases, if you have for example size 3 bases then going from +1 to +2 econ nets +3 energy (+1 over 3 tiles), if you add another +2 econ then you get something like an extra +4 energy per base square, this is very very worthwhile. Also it is immune to energy restrictions, the +1 energy per tile is lost on a river+forest tile. (early game, that is).

I'm a builder, that means large bases and allies where possible. The additional commerce income from higher econ is yet more cash.

My units dont need to leave my territory.

I limit myself to ~10 bases, benefits from increased effic are quite small.

That said, when I feel the need to bring the fight to the others I usually switch to Green, but I cant see how FM could not be good for Morgan in peacetime, partcullary in the early game when every credit counts.

EtheMind · August 11, 2001, 04:59

Quote:

I'm still going stick with my class associated thinking, and you're the Warlord

Wait...I'm the Warlord as well. It must not be hard to get this far

...first time I quoted myself. Can that be interpreted as egosentric?

Anyway...
I would aim for the Economy if I play Morgan. And if I do, that +5 is not all that hard to come up with. You produce that much energy you can easily spare some of it for the psych.
If you play some other builder faction you can always choose FM... or Wealth and achieve GAs. To get +2 Economy, FM is hardly mandatory.
When playing Morgan you really want to limit your base size and in this case that extra energy per base becomes more important. If you play nicely with your neighbours it's worth it for the commerce only.
Do not underestimate the power of the Economy.

cbn · August 11, 2001, 07:52

A couple of points

1. Regardless of "rank" it is correct that Planet rating does not affect Psi defence. I learned this while advocating IODs as the Cult as the power of the sea only to learn that I did not get 50% modifier when defending. Also learned how vulnerable they are to bombardment but thats another story. The upside is that your trance 3r units are no more vulnerable to the worms under FM than they ever were.

2. I likewise thought that PS was a poor choice until I seriously looked at the Hive. Massive numbers of units and many many bases are the order of the day. You build stuff real fast and support is almost never an issue. What I usually do is have all the early bases kick out 2-3 formers early and get a jump on the terraforming. A base goes every 3 squares and police handle the b drones. Efficiency bites and I have games where all my energy in 8-10 outlying bases is lost but you just kick out the crawlers and use specialists.

3 Morgan and FM??-- Well since he cannot go Planned (and growth tops out early anyway due to hab limits-- its FM, Simple or Green. I understand Commodore's point that once you get to +2 Econ and the extra energy a square, further ECon boosts are not worth the pain that FM causes. To me it depends-- If you are peaceful with lots ot treatries/pacts the added commerce of getting to +4 ECON could be very substantial. Green can also make a fair bit of sense since growth won't be needed and added efficiency reduces losses of that crucial energy.

EtheMind · August 12, 2001, 04:24

I've learned that PS can be viable choice with many factions if things get really rough. But of course I tend to avoid it as a builder.

I would not sign that support remark though. Hive has a significant advantages, that's true. He gets level 2 tech, Police State & Planned without penalty and the first one without research. And CN is a sure thing if you're playing Hive and don't mess up. But when you build that minimum of 2 formers, 3 defenders in order to keep people in line...well, there goes your support, and more.

In my current SP game as Hive I'm superior in power graphs, but both economy and science are going low. I got many projects, surprisingly many actually. And I'm in war with just about everyone, and currently pushing Free Drones and University with my Impact Roover regiment. I'm lossing 1/2 or 3/4 of industry production to support.

And the reason I would choose FM if playing Morgan is because of that +5 Economy you get when you reach GA. And it's not very hard to achieve it when playing Morgan. +3 Commerce can really make a difference even if you're not in treaty with everyone.

cbn · August 12, 2001, 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by EtheMind

But when you build that minimum of 2 formers, 3 defenders in order to keep people in line...well, there goes your support, and more.

I'm not sure that I understand your point. My early bases get 2-3 formers and 1-2 military early. Sure if If I have 5-6 units out, I may lose a mineral or two to support but another faction would lose an additional 2 minerals with the same units. In the very early game when your base produces a small number of minerals this can be a crucial difference. This allows a lot of terraforming to grow bases faster and pump out those colony pods. The reality is that I do not have a base go beyond size two for a while so a single unit staying at home and policing is all that is needed. The other reality is that these police units are not just stuck at home. If psych allocation, facilities or specialists mean that police is no longer needed, they get an upgrade and join the fray. Having ready units around can be quite handy when a war comes.

EtheMind · August 13, 2001, 06:28

Well. I have PS, and I like it, in theory. I get to build four free units, neat!

I build 2-3 formers and 1-2 units to keep control very early on. It takes 0 to 1 mineral to support, that's nice.

Then I start to expand because I got PS, you can't stay as small faction if you play dictatorship, not in any Civ game I've played. I start to get b-drones and my bases grow bigger. In a moment I need 3 units to maintain order and soon I could find use for Police Units too, much because of b-drones...there goes that support, 3 points just to keep order and this is the reality of expanding PSs.

PS is good, if you're good at it. Having three units in garrison makes it easy to defend and early support boost can really make a difference, true.
The problem is that it's very hard to turn your coat in PS. You simply can't afford to build all psych facilities early on, and you need them at Trancend. You're stuck with your Police Units, and for some time. You're a developing dictatorship, much like countries in Africa and in Latin America...of course, PS is still cool

cbn · August 13, 2001, 09:47

Ah now I understand what you are saying. I even agree . . . somewhat.

Yes the Hive has a tough time gettin money to buy and pay upkeep on facilities. But for the first many many turns my Hive bases build nothing but formers, units and colony pods. A single garisson at home keeps the peace when you get to size two. I'm a big believer in horizontal expansion as the Hive.

The +1 growth and the support bonus with the +1 Industry means that the Hive gets to grow faster than pretty much anyone. Your points are valid for larger bases but who needs larger bases ??

A current MP game gives a sense of my approach. I have 31 bases and about 70 formers. Only two of my bases are bigger than size 7 since I am setting them up as science centers-- they get rec commons and holotheatres. Most of my bases do not have any drone facilities but have 3 police units. A couple of recently captured size 7s are causing drone problems and lose ALL their energy to innefficiency . . . . no problem-- 4 workers become specialists and you end up with a base that contributes a little to the economy.

Once a base has a crawler or two in the field I do not find drone control to be any problem at all. Specialists rule the day. . . Once the base is size 5-- it might get 5 scientists.

The limitation to PS in my mind is that Bio-engineering allows others to get Clean units and negate the advantage somewhat. I still find it a huge advantage to have a whole bunch of units (with 31 bases it would be 124 units) that do not need to be upgraded.

Overall though I do agree that the advantage of PS is most prevalent early. The support/police combo allows a player to focus on building formers and crawlers without drone or support worries. The IDEA is that should translate into more, better developed bases to attempt to negate the economy minus and the inability/difficulty to pop boom.

Understand me here . . . I rarely use PS for anyone but the Hive (usually in Demo) but for the Hive I have found it addictive.

EtheMind · August 13, 2001, 12:07

Quote:

I'm a big believer in horizontal expansion as the Hive.

Welcome to the club. Hive's a great faction when you know how to play it. But as I pointed out in my thread "Police State, the most oppressed goverment in SMAC"(you'll find it here...somewhere) PS isn't such a bargain in latter game. And that's just not fair.

You seem to know how to play Hive...better than me

And Hive is just about the only faction who really benefits from PS...and that's just not fair

cbn · August 13, 2001, 14:06

I seem to recall that Police State thread. I agree that Police Stae can be painful later since higher level efficiency is harder to attain. More than most the Hive seem to cry out for crawlers and specialists. Before starting with the Hive I had generally always had +2 efficiency or more in my games-- Now with the Hive the 0 efficiency means NO energy production-- My solution is to crawl stuff and get the base big enough to use specialists. OR if I want higher efficiency to use a higher Labs allocation I have tinkered with Simple / Green/ Knowledge but that is REAL rare. Thereality is that usually when you are used to PS for Drone control its tough to get off of it -- ie PS + Ascetic Virtues means that 3 police units can quell 9 drones--

. . . . Oh and I never claim to play better or have a better strat than anyone- EVERY time I hear another persons ideas I learn a lot. Sometimes I like to argue some of the points about the game since every time I do, I hear more about different perspectives.

EtheMind · August 14, 2001, 14:00

No, that was me who claimed that...

I'm just starting to get used to specialists. I rarely use them if I'm a builder since you can usually process a lot of science and economy with little energy because of all facilities and projects. But I am beginning to understand the importance of this strategy in case of high inefficiency. I really have to try it in my current game with Hive, when I have time to continue it...in few months

SMAX does add little more fairness when using PS, because of Brood pits. This makes PS very viable choice for Cult after they get that...tech which you need to build BPs. And since for Police centered factions have hard time getting Ascetic Virtues, especially in MP games, I'd guess, and Thought Control is far away, and even if you get it you loose that important support bonus, unless you have CV.
In any case it's pretty hard for control freeks to run Thought Control, even in late game, because of their shortage of infrastructure and cost efficient cities.

DilithiumDad · August 16, 2001, 11:30

Gaians: I end up staying in Planned for most of the game, with some Green periods when I have units trolling the fungus or popping sea pods. When the fungus is all trolled (virgin fungus yileds more worms) and all the pods are popped it's back to Planned. Green also helps in maintaining Golden Ages when going for Wealth + GA to get +2 economy.

Morgan: I use FM a lot with Morgan, especially for population growth. After expansion and once your bases are size 4 and over, then Green starts to look better. Often Green nets you more economy and labs than FM, let alone the +2 planet advantages.

Hive: I used to leave it locked to PS-Planned-Wealth until I got my clock cleaned in Wealth in multiplayer. Wealth is very dangerous in multiplayer, and the Hive is the only faction that can tolerate the -2 industry penalty of Power.

PK: Rather than having a set SE setting for this faction, I prefer to alternate between Planned and FM with either Wealth or Knowledge. I pop boom on Planned, then switch to FM and reap all the energy from the extra worked tiles. I alternate between FM and Planned in about 5-year cycles.