Governments. :)

[Like2frolick]

Most proberably, this topic has been done to death, resussitated, rebuilt, and done to death again.

Kinda like beating a dead horse, raising it's corpse as a zombie and beating that.

Anyway....enough annoying stuff.

Governments....what ya think of em, what they should be used for, etc etc etc.

#1) Anarchy
Avoid as much as Possible.
#2)Despotism.
Beats Anarchy. Not much else is going for it. Decent for exploration and war, I guess. If you can get out of it, do so. ::Nodnodnod::

Monarchy:
Beats the heck out of Despotism. great for Happiness, Military, exploration and production, generally speaking. Compared to "Advanced" governments, Monarchy isn't really good at anything...that being said, you're likely to spend a LOT of time in Monarchy, early in the game.

Republic might be a better Peace government, but Monarchy is better at exploration...and you can hit up your opponents for money.

Communism: Absolute Center of the road. Not as good as Democracy or Republic in Peace, but better in war...and not as great a war Gov't as Fundamanetalism.

The only GOOD thing about Communism is that it lets you make all your spies Veterens...I use it, sometimes as an Interim Government, I build about 20 Vet spies, and then switch to an effective government, and use the spies to raise as much general hell as possible.

Republic/Democracy:
Almost the same thing...if you're going to be in one, be in Democracy if Available...simply because it's better.
Democracy is better than any other government in the game in the Tech race.

Democracy is either one of the LEAST effective war time governments or MOST effective war time governments.

Against the AI, use Democracy for peace, and switch to something else in war...simply cause it's easier, and the main advantage Democracy has is negated against the AI.

In MP, Democracy can be a good war-gov't. First off, Yes, Military gives much unhappiness. Unless you have shakespeares...support your army from a city with shakespeares and your army has no effect on Happiness back home.

In addition, Democracy is immune to bribery...which is a BIG thing in the MP.

I'll talk about fundie later....what do YOU guys think?

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I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

[Mercantile]

personally Democracy is great if you have a happy wonder, especially Bachs as it works after the units have been accounted for, ie out on patrol and not in fortresses, allowing for some needed 'field' units.

First to Sol in an mp game has the huge advantage of going commie, which is a glorified Monarchy without the corruption and the double martial law. allowing cities to grow even larger. The vet spies are nice as well

Republic, almost no point as Democracy is around the corner and the corruption can be annoying as well as the shield support. MDL rules allowing the trireme without the attack factor and not causing happy problems make Republic especially early, a good choice.

Fundy is fun, but in MP, you can ill affoard to spend too many turns in it unless you are way ahead on tech. Especially in dp where the tech turns come at a far more rapid pace.

Communist is best until i am ready for Democracy and the tech discovery of every two turns

[Deity Dude]

Like everyone else - I go to monarchy asap. Then I get SoL asap and switch to Commie. Usually I stay in Commie until i get a substantial tech lead then go fundy to crank out the units until I win the world (I usually have Sun's and vet Crusader's are pretty dominant early and vet Calvary is pretty dominant mid-game). If the AI catches up on techs before I can finish them off, I switch back to Commie (I'm usually at 3 or 4 turns/tech) get a tech lead again and switch back to Fundy. With this strategy, I usually win by conquest around 1800 - 1850AD, quite often with my most advanced military unit being Calvary. I havn't been able to get the hang of Republic or Democracy yet.

[Tizzy]

I go to Monarchy ASAP, then Communism ASAP after that, and sometimes Fundy when I've done all the research I want to.

So far I've only used Republic and Democracy in an OCC game, where I don't need to worry about happiness. I haven't quite got the hang of it in a normal game yet - happiness wonders are obviously crucial, but as they're not my priority, I usually miss out on them.
I need to change my strategy to be able to use these Governments effectively.

[Mercantile]

Trade routes, markets, will help with representative govts. Also WLTKD is vital to growth and a powerfull tool under these govt as you grow one pop point each turn you celebrate

[Chainsaw]

SP:
monarchy, then republic if I have managed to build up enough trade routes, marketplaces and temples and MC. Demo follows soon, when I have the needed techs and feel ready to strike, fundy. I like to build up my army being in demo, no problem with factories, hoover dam and some offshore platforms, eventually manuPlants. Keeps the cash flowing, and the production isn't that bad. Change to fundy about ten to twenty turns before the attack, then I destroy most pf the enemy civs in one big war.

[Chainsaw]

Note: Choice of your government depends on your playing style (like everything). Playing early conquest, I don't bother with representative govts, stay in monarchy either until I get communism, or until the end till everyone is dead before I get commie/fundy.
>

[Bohlen]

Gee, sounds like the vote is close to unanimous. Commie is great and using it makes the game fun for me. You can attack, research, collect taxes, and attack again under Communism. Sure, Democracy is a great way to go in the tech/space race, but the AI keeps pace with you in the tech race, so why not have a little more fun? Slow down the rate of tech advancement and go bash some heads. The AI is totally inept, among other things, when you slow the rate of tech advancements. It still keeps pace with you and ends up falling apart.

[Chainsaw]

But its fun to sweep across the surface of the earth and clean it of its scum in one stroke...

[Mercantile]

Bohlen your correct. I like to use the various windows of opportunity to attack. I often start and stop my civ scientifically to do this and see what kind of havoc i can wreak while still maintaining my cities.

[Like2frolick]

::Nods:: Okay...I'm confused.

Why is Communism good? I'm not quite catching on...it's a glorified monarchy, isn't it? It isn't good as good at war as fundie, it isn't as good at peace as democracy, it can be bribed, it does have happiness, it isn't as good at tech as anything...

One would think that
#1) Democracy
#2) Fundamentalism
#3) Communism

But...I mean, cause it's not good aty anything, except for spies...

[Scouse Gits]

Communism (reached via SoL) is a very useful form of government playing ICS. There are no unhappiness problems (unless you are really careless with the management of cities) and there is a possible science rate of 80%. When science is supported by strategic overseas trading you can race through the tech-tree to somewhere like Steam Engine or Leadership/Tactics and enjoy an unbeatable army/navy. The trading swells your treasury so the AI can't afford to buy your cities.

It is worth pointing out that governments reached by building the Statue of Liberty are not in some cases identical to the government types reached by pure research.

"Soft Communism" via SoL does not allow spies - you have to reasearch Espionage - and to do that you must have researched Communism.

"Soft Fundamentalism" via SoL does not give fanatics; again you must research the advance itself to have the pleasure of swarms of guys with torches.

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SG (2)

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Like2frolick on 12-11-2000 09:59 PM Why is Communism good? I'm not quite catching on...it's a glorified monarchy, isn't it? It isn't good as good at war as fundie, it isn't as good at peace as democracy, it can be bribed, it does have happiness, it isn't as good at tech as anything...

Communism is kind of a compromise government; it's not as good for war as Fundamentalism, and not as good for research as Democracy. But it's 3 times better for research than Fundamentalism (80% vs. an effective 25%), and much better for war and expansion(IMHO) than Democracy. The elimination of waste, corruption, and riot factor is a huge benefit to a large empire; doubled martial law means you can keep lots of medium-sized cities happy without any improvements, and without wasting any production on luxuries. Alternatively, you can crank up the luxuries to create WLTCD in all your cities, and have the best of both worlds.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited December 12, 2000).]

[La Fayette]

L2F
I must strongly agree with SG and Dave: Communism is not a kind of slightly better Monarchy or awkward compromise between the advantages of Demo and Fundy. It is very often the best possible choice as soon as you have finished building SoL or started naval conquest through researching Steam Eng (+ Rail) + Indust.
It seems that you (and many other people) consider Fundy as being the best government for warmongers. I would say that clever and lucky warmongers only use Monarchy (because they don't care for Rep at all, and finish conquering the world so soon that no other government is available yet ).

Building SoL, your choice is between "soft Fundy" and "soft Commie" (thank you SG):
Fundy gives more money and more units without support.
Commie gives much better research and somewhat better protection of poor lonesome cities against bribery.
After many many games I choose Com (because I dislike massive fights with obsolete units and massive bribery).

Not building SoL, one gets Communism (and hordes of sweet vet spies shortly after that) long before Fundy. No choice then. World conquest is over before Fundy becomes available (hello DD!).

DD
You should have a try at Republic.
Go scouting, find at least one foreign city (preferably a big one, faraway and overseas) demanding what you can supply, churn out a few caravans and switch to Republic just before delivering them (choose the right oedo year). You get cash (a lot more than staying in Monarchy). Turn to 80% luxuries. This should provide you WLTCD in most of your cities and you can use your cash for rushbuying needed improvements (temples, harbors or market places).
This is costly in terms of production and research but it is a real boost to your civ. And after a bit of training you will notice that one can even fight wars under Rep (at least defensive ones).

[Blaupanzer]

L2F, I almost never use commie govs, despite their apparent popularity among some players. (Didn't use 'em in Civ I either.) You are correct, in my opinion, in that they are overgrown monarchies, albeit somewhat more flexible.

La Fayette, in what way is a Communist city safer from bribery? Are you referring to the reduced corruption? If so, build a courthouse. That jacks up the price across the whole range of governments.
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 13, 2000).]

[Captain Psquire]

Personally I've always made a beeline for Democracy and stayed there at all costs. I make Women's Suffrage a top priority (and generally Cure for Cancer, which appears to be frowned upon on some of these boards), and with it it's not all that hard to put up fairly large offensives. True you gotta check the happiness advisor every round to make sure you don't plunge into chaos, but I've always felt it's worth it to maintain high income/research, and bribery proof units and cities. But now with all these Commies out there, I'm wondering if there's not something I'm missing...

-Capt. Psquire

[rah]

The rise of communism popularity is somewhat due to MP.
In MP you don't get all the happiness wonders. In MP having more defensive and offensive troops is required. If you get aced out of all the happiness wonders, you make a beeline for SOL. Double martial law is big when you have no happiness wonders, and haven't add the surplus resources to build cols or caths. Before playing MP, I can say I almost never used Com. but now I find it to be very useful.

RAH

[La Fayette]

Blaupanzer
About bribing cities, the book that goes with my game states that "communist cities are difficult to bribe even when located far from the capital".
The formula I have in mind is: S(T+1000)/(D+3), where
S = Size of the city
T = Treasury of the civ owning that city
D = Distance from the capital of that civ (distance being measured between the capital and the dip who is attempting to bribe).
The max of D would be 32 for all civs except communist civs where it would be 10. Hence a city size 10 located 40 squares away from the capital of a civ owning a treasury of 2500 would cost 10(3500)/35 = 1000 if the civ is fundy, and 35000/13 = 2700 if the civ is commie.
The price is doubled if there is a courthouse in the city (you stated that rightly: it is written in the book,... or else the book is wrong as it happens now and then ).
I have also in mind that the price is halved if the city is in disorder or empty, 84% using a spy and 67% using a vet spy instead of a dip. Last but not least, the price is halved if the city has been yours in the past (bribing back with a vet spy is delicious; I must confess it happens to me to do it on purpose: let the enemy dip come in, spend a lot of money bribing my costly communist city, then bribe back my city next turn for 1/3 of the price, then bribe his remaining cities at low cost).
What I don't know is whether all those results have been tested thoroughly. A veteran apolytoner will probably tell us soon.

[Blaupanzer]

I would expect we'll hear from the vets. Didn't know about the different max distance to the capitol calculation for Communism. Love this site; all the new stuff you can learn, even after 8 years or so of playing.

(Side note, off-topic: Are you the same La Fayette of Wizardry RPG sites? Same is also from France, but I don't remember the city. Keep civvin'.)

[rixxe]

Everybody here is okay with the fact that switching to Monarchy is the best to do early in the game....But after that, choosing a new government depends on some other facts; the most important is , the level in which im playing....

If im playing in Deity level, I wont go in Democracy/Republic, citizen are too angry, and you're always at war with someone, so comminism will be a good choice....But if im playing warlord (what will never happens ) i guess every govs will fit to the situation......

After all its only a matter of level....
[This message has been edited by rixxe (edited December 15, 2000).]

[Everyman]

My name is Everyman and I'm a Communist.

Ok, the way I look at things is that I'm playing a computer game and the reason I'm doing it is to have some fun at home. At deity level, I prefer Communism over other advanced forms of government because it allows me to do two things I enjoy: gain techs in 2-3 turns and pummel my enemies militarily. I do not enjoy dealing with unhappy cities, so I generally stay from Democracy.

My general strategy for winning at Deity level is to head for Democracy, build the SOL and switch to Communism to get rid of corruption and get an immediate boost in science and trade. If I'm behind in science and don't have spies yet, I'll switch to Fundie and aquire techs by conquering cities.

But Communism is the most versatile government and most of the time I'll stick with it until the last pitiful city is wiped off the map.

[Bohlen]

Everyman makes a good point. We all know that Demo is the best government for research, but when I am a practicing Commie and getting advances even every 5 turns, well that's good enough for me.

Some folks have said that fundy is a better military government. I'd have to disagree there. With the faster research rate under Communism, I'll get to the more dangerous military advances much more quickly than if under Fundy. An army full of Fanatics and Dragoons will get crushed by my Alpine Yellows, Calvary, and Spies.

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 12-15-2000 04:51 PM Everyman makes a good point. We all know that Demo is the best government for research, but when I am a practicing Commie and getting advances even every 5 turns, well that's good enough for me. Some folks have said that fundy is a better military government. I'd have to disagree there. With the faster research rate under Communism, I'll get to the more dangerous military advances much more quickly than if under Fundy. An army full of Fanatics and Dragoons will get crushed by my Alpine Yellows, Calvary, and Spies.

Strange... I always agree with your posts.



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Go Redskins!

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

[Blaupanzer]

Only play at deity. Gov choices still very real once you learn the little tricks. I learned most of them here. Check out the GL.

[La Fayette]

(Blaupanzer
Being a frenchman and sending posts about strategy to the USA, the choice of that name is very tempting. So I won't blame the other frenchman you mention. But Ming's forum is my one and only forum, and I think I am the one and only frenchman posting here.)

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Blaupanzer]

And a fine representative at that!