A strategy in the works...

[Kitana]

I'm starting to develope a new method of play, at least to me.

Typically I would research to Monarchy to Literacy then to Invention to get the Great Library, King Richard's and Leo's Workshop. Well, I've abandonned this route in favour for a new route because I seem to always be a little behind that way. Now I go to Monarchy to Astronomy to Republic to Theory of Gravity to get the science wonders and the happiness wonders and work on Great Library and Leo's afterwards (and forget about King Richard's most games, nice to have but I'm not going to sell my blood to get it !)

From there I'm still working on it but typically I try to get Adam Smith and The Statue of Liberty and switch from a Republic to a Democracy (I hate diplos/spies bribing my cities but I love to do it )

As well I don't let my cities grow past 8. What I do is this:
build a city, a settler to found a new city, a phalanx (or pikeman) and then my best attack unit and a settler to build roads then I concentrate on temple, marketplace, library and citywalls in that order to get the "we love the..." growth. When I get Adam Smith I go for Aqueducts and banks for more "we love the..." days and if possible build Michealangelo's Chapel and then let my cities stay at 12... I fortify my defense and sleep my offense so if an enemy comes by the unit is ready to attack the next turn, saves a couple mouse clicks....

Well, that is the basic outline, any comments, questions or queries are welcome...


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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[Edward]

Sounds good, Kitana.

It's hard to get the early ones, but you might want to add Colossus to your early science wonder list.

Since you only hit the highlights, you might already be doing this, but don't forget Philosophy (even before Copernicus(Astronomy)). It gives you a free tech.

While I used to always build it (if only to keep it out of the AI's hands), I now never build the Great Library. The number of beakers to get a new tech is roughly doubled for every tech you know. The Great Library gives you techs you weren't researching, which means you'll have more techs, which means it'll take longer to research the techs you are researching. Free Great Library techs can (paradoxically) hamper your early research.

[Martin Schmidt]

I do it this way when i have a good capital but
not much space to grow (small or medium islands ,
with about six cities).
Then to make the Capital a real research place is
a good idea .
I try to build kolossus , hanging gardens , kopernikus
watch , newtons college , a library and a University
in my Capital , than the three caravans if
good foreign towns to goto are known . This worked
well , but i think in mp games it will not be
possible to get both hanging gardens and kolossus .

To Edward : and that's exactly the reason why i
wait to build the Great Library until i have the
important techs , for example monotheism if i am
on a big continent (I really like michelangelos
chapel) . Then you should consider building the
Great Library , because sooner or later you will
have to waste time research ugly techs anyway .

[Kitana]

Edward: I didn't realize that getting the free techs from the great library increased the number of beakers needed to get research technology. That would explain the slow down that I usually get (dropping from 1st to 3rd in tech rating). I forgot to mention that I do try to get philosophy first, if possible, and also monotheism (I like Mike's Chapel!!)

Martin: I try and get colossus in the city that I'm going to build to science wonders, usually my best production city. I do forget to send out the caravans though.

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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[East Street Trader]

Kitana

The point about getting techs increasing the number of beakers required applies to techs gained from huts and trades as well as from the GL. Some people avoid tipping huts before establishing a monarchy for that reason.

(edit - it doesn't apply to free techs given at the outset though. You start requiring 10 beakers in deity whether you have just the basics or a half dozen extras on top.)
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited December 18, 2000).]

[Tizzy]

quote: I do forget to send out the caravans though

Try not to forget the caravans - that's the best advice I can give you.
I didn't pay much attention to them till I started playing OCC, then I realised they really are invaluable.
They'll boost your treasury when you deliver them, give you a science boost towards your next advance, give you a permanent trade boost, and they're great for hurrying along wonders!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Tizzy (edited December 18, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Tizzy (edited December 18, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

The Great Library is really a waste of shields. Whilst playing one of the early succession games we were trying to race to Steam Engine to build some Super Ironclads. On three occasions we were within sight of reaching Steam Engine when the GL gave us science we didn't need. Each time this happened the line of beakers in F6 shortened and delayed the research we really needed.

When first playing the game it is tempting to think you will lose out by not having the GL wonder. I have built it many times in the past, before realising the havoc it plays with your scientific goals.

A much better wonder that comes up around the same time is MPE. This provides intelligence on all the other civs, and some basic diplomacy will allow exchanges of maps. Information is power! If you don't believe me - ask the CIA!

------------

SG (2)

[Kitana]

quote: Originally posted by Tizzy on 12-18-2000 11:53 AM Try not to forget the caravans - that's the best advice I can give you. I didn't pay much attention to them till I started playing OCC, then I realised they really are invaluable. They'll boost your treasury when you deliver them, give you a science boost towards your next advance, give you a permanent trade boost, and they're great for hurrying along wonders! [This message has been edited by Tizzy (edited December 18, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Tizzy (edited December 18, 2000).]

You're right about the caravans. I tend to dislike trading with other civs (even though I get more trade arrows.) I'm trying to re-work my tech path to get trade faster for when I get to the "What the hell do I build now?" question. I've been building diplomats but caravans would be better especially since I'm going for the wonders really quick.


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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[Kitana]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 12-18-2000 07:05 PM The Great Library is really a waste of shields. Whilst playing one of the early succession games we were trying to race to Steam Engine to build some Super Ironclads. On three occasions we were within sight of reaching Steam Engine when the GL gave us science we didn't need. Each time this happened the line of beakers in F6 shortened and delayed the research we really needed. When first playing the game it is tempting to think you will lose out by not having the GL wonder. I have built it many times in the past, before realising the havoc it plays with your scientific goals. A much better wonder that comes up around the same time is MPE. This provides intelligence on all the other civs, and some basic diplomacy will allow exchanges of maps. Information is power! If you don't believe me - ask the CIA! ------------ SG (2)

I'm not too happy about MPE I find the intelligence I get to be a pain in the butt. Don't get me wrong, I like knowing what my neighbours are doing but I don't need to be told every time they get an advance but I like to check in from time to time to see what they are doing.



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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[drake]

quote: The Great Library is really a waste of shields

This really depends on the player. Some will utilize it as it is designed and some will not. If you are a scientific genius and you're going to be leading the world in science, it obviously is a waste of shields. But if your strategy isn't one based on science and discoveries come few and far betwen, the Library is a good friend. It will allow you to fill your primary goals (whatever that might be), and still keep up with the world in the science department, at least in adequate fashion.

For example, a war mongor who's resources are primarily allotted to the military, the Library is a good thing to have.

All depends on style doesn't it?

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Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

[Laertes]

quote: Originally posted by drake on 12-20-2000 11:29 AM All depends on style doesn't it?

Well Drake, you should have had an interesting choice in our succession game then. When I took the game on, I changed the Library to Marco. Did you change it back?

Fergus

[Blaupanzer]

We go thru this GL thing every two months or so. I am a strong advocate of that wonder. Based on the posts here, I have recently tried games without it. If I get a good tech lead, then I find I don't miss it.

However, it's chief advantage is somewhat more complex than the advertised "get any tech when a second AI civ discovers/receives it." The key is that the AIs set their science rates pretty close to yours. To get ahead and stay ahead is a lot harder if your own rate is high. BUT if you set your own rate low, the AIs get ahead because they share with each other more readily than with you. SO, the GL keeps you up with them with a lower rate of science. Worth thinking about in most games.

[Scouse Gits]

All those who support the Great Library - put your hands up!

Right up - where we can all see them...........


All those with your hands up .... do you think the AI is stupid?


Don't be shy ... is the AI stupid!?

Well why do you let it choose your techs?


The prosecution rests!


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SG (2)

[Smash]

Bad wonder for regular games.Even terrible human civs quickly pull ahead of the AI science wise.If I do build it,it is to keep it away from them or there is nothing else important to do.


VERY good wonder for MP games.Humans are so much better at research that the Library owner will get alot more tech.Darn good weapon against alliance tech trading also.

[Kitana]

Yes, I agree the AI is stupid...

As for the Great Library I'm not sure. I don't really miss it in the games that I have been playing under Republic but if I stay in Monarchy I find that it is a help.... Haven't had the chance to try it in MP though...


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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[Blaupanzer]

Scouse Gits,

An implication of your post is that we won't end up getting all the techs anyway. The actual process of the GL is that we, to some degree, let the AI pick the order of our techs. Every time we take an AI city we end up choosing a tech. (At least I've never found a way to say "no thanks." The only choices are "okay" and "help;" no "cancel," no "none.") Since we'll get 'em all anyway, why not let the AIs reserch some of them for us. This process is especially useful if you also have Da Vinci's, since you get to upgrade converted barbs and captured units more often than your own research tree would permit.

[DaveV]

Blaupanzer - if you build the GL, you're less likely to be able to build Leo's Workshop in time, because you'll be bogged down with seafaring, astronomy, and polytheism instead of making a beeline for invention. Once you have the techs you need for a conquest, the captured techs are indeed a benefit. The difference is in the timing - not building GL lets you keep your tech tree lean and focused in the early game. Once you have the techs you want, it doesn't matter how bushy your tech tree becomes.

[Smash]

Yes that is the very bad thing about Great Library.Even in mp games.I once lost Leo's due my ally's reckless use of Marco Polo.

[SilexMT]

quote: Originally posted by Martin Schmidt on 12-18-2000 10:39 AM I do it this way when i have a good capital but not much space to grow (small or medium islands , with about six cities). Then to make the Capital a real research place is a good idea . I try to build kolossus , hanging gardens , kopernikus watch , newtons college , a library and a University in my Capital , than the three caravans if good foreign towns to goto are known . This worked well , but i think in mp games it will not be possible to get both hanging gardens and kolossus .

In my last game I used this strategy, but not in my capital: I selected the city that generated the most trade (five river squares, and a silk). While all my other cities averaged around 10 beakers, this city, after I completed Newton's, started cranking out 400 beakers a turn; and I didn't even had collossus. GL would have been a perfect waste of time there, I was so far ahead; I was only playing at king level though.

Science cities rule!

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All the world marvels at our superior intellect, sire!

[Matthew]

Perhaps the best use of GL in a multiplayer game is to turn your science down while collecting taxes to build up your civ. Let others do your research for you. As long as there are 5 or more civs in a game, and no one is way ahead, you shouldn't fall too far behind tech wise.

The disadvantage to this strategy is that while your science is low you will likely miss out on some popular wonders. But if you are a good, flexible player, you should be able to make due with the wonders left over.

By building caravans and infrastructure instead of researching early on, you should be able to make up for your sacrifice later on.