c180# ULTIMATE MODS: MAKING GAMES OBSOLETE

[MarkG]

A day late due to RLTTFSTLA(Real Life Taking Time From Significant Things Like Apolyton), here is the 180th Column.

180# ULTIMATE MODS: MAKING GAMES OBSOLETE
Mods and first person shooters...

By Father Beast.

[Mech Assassin]

Yes, I agree on the mods. Maybe the editing could be similar to Red Alert 2. There you have .ini files, that contain almost every single aspect of the game (AI, units, structures, terrain, sounds and so on) and the only problem is, that the engine is limited and doesn't allow everything, we'd want to have.

This kind of files to allow us to create our own AIs, change the gameplay and such would be nice. Or even more so, if we'd be allowed to edit the code itself, like in 3D shooters.

[yin26]

I have absolute faith that it is the Civ community that could keep Civ3 alive long beyond expectations given the right tools. However, the tricky question here becomes: But would Firaxis want to? Would you sell a car that never runs down? Not if you want to sell more cars...

If Firaxis plans on a Civ4, I can't imagine their giving too much control to the community since we might well produce something better than they could. Unless Civ4 will have an entirely new engine or something. However, if Firaxis does NOT plan to go with Civ 4 (they could still do an x-pack with more art, etc.), then it would make sense for them to give away these tools to keep dragging in people for years to come.

One thing that I personally would like to be able to mess with without having to learn a programming language is AI. The AI in AoK was rather accessible, but the superior MP play made that pretty irrelevant to most people. However, I seriously doubt I'll play much MP Civ3, and being able to make an AI that kills the top players around here would be something I'd take great satisfaction in working on...

[Father Beast]

Darned if I know why this is in civ2 forums instead of civ3

Yin, I don't seriously think that there will be nearly as much customization as I propose, but the AI is the hands down most important feature available for us to tweak.

If it does ship with some way to tweak the AI, however inaccessible, some of us will be doing it and we will be downloading their AI mods for more fascinating gameplay.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

if Firaxis want to redefine the TBS, this is the way to go. It is not impossible, and it would give life to TBS as a whole, not only to Civ 3.

Btw, I just bought Half life for the second time now, since i lost the original CD Key. To be able to play TFC and CS.

I mean who cares for 20£ more after three years if the games are that good!!!

[Mech Assassin]

Not games, but mods.

[Alexander's Horse]

The shooter community has certainly led the way on mods. Because in most cases you need a copy of the original game to use the mods, it doesn't hurt the game maker's bottom line much AFAIK. It may even increase sales, it certainly increases game longevity - look at the Doom and Quake series.

I would like to see civ moddable - the "cheat" menu should be called the "mod" menu as a starting point - and it should be available in multiplayer!

Another area where maybe they could help players is with making it easier to change sprites and stuff like that - I would prefer my units to represent bodies of troops, which what they really are, rather than a single figure. But it seems they are going down the CTP path of animating the sprites which probably makes changing them very difficult if not impossible.

[Father Beast]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

Another area where maybe they could help players is with making it easier to change sprites and stuff like that - I would prefer my units to represent bodies of troops, which what they really are, rather than a single figure. But it seems they are going down the CTP path of animating the sprites which probably makes changing them very difficult if not impossible.

Not neccessarily a big problem. If most of us will eventually turn off the unit animations option, then there won't be much difference. I imagine that they could pave the way for us somewhat, so that if there isn't a unit animation, it won't show one. we can then just make the wireframe and skin for a unit (which they've been doing in shooters for years) and worry about the animation later, if ever.

[airdrik]

I posted this in the thread for column #179 unknowingly. I intended to post it here, so here it is.


I read the article, and I definetally think that they should include with civ 3 an in-depth customization tool. Either part of, or in addition to, the existing map/scenario editor, which would allow you to tweak anything you want rather than having to sort through .txt files. You could still edit things in the txt files if you wanted to change just one or two things and don't want to have to open up the 'Gameplay Editor.'

The editor would have things in it like toggle between static units and workshop models, choosing static would allow you to design static units with all the stats that go along with static units. Choosing Workshop would allow you to set up chasises and parts that can be added. You can open up and edit existing units files/ai files/mods/scenarios/etc. and easily design your own or work out the bugs in your already top-of-the-line AI (whose name is Fred).

When you open up civ 3 to start a new game, it would have the options of standard game, custom scenario, custom modpack, or mix-and-match (which would allow you to pick, say Starwars units on Sesame Street terrain and have the AI act like Richard Simmons)

In the Editor you could set up random events and what they do (like meteor shower: 1/2500 chance, destroys 20 land/city improovments in a certain area, or meteor strike: 1/10000 chance, destroys one city size <20, or decreases city size by 20 and destroys 90% of all improovments and units in city). You could toggle all sorts of little gameplay enhancements, like simplified combat-civ 2 combat-civ3 combat, road/rr/irr/farm/mine's effects on map squares, what types of improovments exist (ie. road 1move, rr all move points but can continue on track as far as the go in 1 turn, highway 1/3 move, farm +2 food, mine+2 production, fort+25% def, base +50% def and att must have fort).

In this editor you should also be able to tweek the AI, give it a name, have them never sign treaties, but allways signs ceasefires, have them never break treaties, but allways breaks ceasefires. etc. Give them strategies that they will use, like allways make sure that outer defences have been destroyed with artillary before attacking a city with infantry. Wait untill they have 10 top-of-the-line units in each of 10 different stacks before blitzing an enemy. etc.


Of course the editor would just be a really cool interface that is not entirely necessary, and an option on install. Anyone who knows how to tweak .txt files should have no problems fiddling with them without the help of this editor (and might even discover the secret in designing the best AI in the world until someone takes it and fixes that one bug that he ran into)

[Father Beast]

sounds good to me, solver

[Laszlo]

What about an AI 'clone'? There could be an option to start something deep inside the Civ 3 code that would analyze your every action and try to correlate that data so, with enough input, you would essentially have a file that is...you.

Now, something like that would be very complex, but also very useful. Suppose it knows your style is to expand before really defending cities until you encounter another civ? Or you like production and trade over food in Deity because you couldn't grow more anyway?

It would be easiest to implement as a simple queue generator that builds in your order and would be affected by your criteria. On an island? Build ships faster. Only one ocean square? Then the Offshore Platform isn't worth the expense.

I know it's a little far-fetched to assume that Firaxis would include this, but it would be the ultimate micro-management eliminator. The tedium of empire overseeing could be handed over to mayors and advisors that could be trusted to make decisions as good as yours.

[Laszlo]

As an amendment to my last post, I would like to add that cloned explorers and captains would be possible to lead exploration parties or exploration ships.

Land units set to explore would know to utilize rivers and to explore huts. Ships would find and circle continents, mapping out the minutiae of other civs without you having to constantly direct them. Like in the Go To command in Civ 2, they would maybe pause for consultation for difficult situations they didn't know how to handle, like when they encounter a foreign unit.

Generals and pilots would be even harder to teach adequately, but it would be possible. But then, who would actually be playing the game then? It would be cool though to develop near-perfect clones to battle it out against each other. Throw a few in with an adaptable and self-correcting AI for a few weeks of computing time and, who knows, maybe it would be better than you?

[airdrik]

You mean that you want the AI to learn???

That would have to be another difficulty level above diety (... diety, It Learns!!!), or have diety learn. Otherwise the other levels would become too difficult as well. Maybe when the diety level learns, then out of every 6 situations that the game learns from, none are implemented in chieftain, 1 in warlord, etc. up to 5 in emperor, and all in diety.

[The Rusty Gamer]

With CTP 2, the modifications that are now available demonstrate that you can just about make any kind of civilization game you want already.

Why wait for Civ 3?

[Mech Assassin]

You may be able to make about any kind of civilization, but not about any kind of TBS.

Also, I think, the editor should be a different module. Completely different .exe. In Civ II it took far too much time to do the editing with the editor, so all I did was place units at it. Everything else was faster and better done at the .txts. I think, unit placements, city stats setting and such should be done at the Map Editor, not at the game.

[airdrik]

Mech Assasin, that is precisely what I was suggesting, or maybe even have another editor, separate from the map/scenario editor, with which to edit all the gameplay/AI/etc. details. With such an editor it would make it a whole lot easier to make any TBS game you ever dreamed of.

The editor would be able to sort through all the variouse .txt files for you. No more black-and-white text editing, but a nice cheary interface that allows you to easily make modifications to your mods.

[Mech Assassin]

Ok... Maybe I didn't just read it sharp enough then.

Anyways, yes I agree with you on that. Also, with the former poster of this thread with that, there should also be possibility to do the black-and-white text editing (I enjoy it).

[Father Beast]

I found a lot of stuff in rules.txt to be easy, but the units and tile types tended to be a bit confusing.

I don't think it would be too hard to have a unit editing screen where you can simply check boxes for unit abilities, rather than the binary system in the rules.txt.

I just have a tendency to think that EVERYTHING should be in the rules.txt, and the editor have the most used options.

[airdrik]

Not EVERYTHING should be in the one-and-only RULES.TXT, but have things like unit configs, terrain configs, and each AI in separate .txt's. The game would come with 1 Rules.txt, 1 units.txt, 1 terrains.txt, 16 AI's (1 for every civ named after the civ which normally uses that AI, like Egypt.txt, and China.txt), and whatever other .txt's it otherwise comes with.

Having a separate units.txt and terrains.txt would make it a lot easier to create new units and terrain sets with their own separate abilities without having to page through one billion-line .txt file to find the units or the terrain section just to try and switch terrain sets or units.

I don't agree entirely that the editor should have JUST the most used stuff. It should have everything in it, it should just be designed so that the most used stuff is easiest to find and alter.

[SK138]

I think being able to customize just about every aspect of the game is a good thing for Firaxis to do. If you think about it, Civ2 had a lot to customize, but you still wanted more units, more time, more techs, but even with the limited customization of Civ2 the game is still being played by many, inluding myself. Civ2 has been out since 1995 I believe and for it to last 6, almost 7, years is amazing. If Firaxis makes Civ3 fully customizable, it will let them have more time to get better technology and ideas for an even better Civ4.

[airdrik]

The only reason why they would make a Civ 4 is because Civ 3 was somehow inadequate. But if Civ 3 is not inadequate, then we will never want a Civ 4.

We want Civ 3 to be the best Civilization game ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't want to have to wait for Civ 4 to be the best civ game, we want it now!!!!!!!!!!

[Scrooge]

Up untill now I've been posting at the Civ Fanatics Forum, because I didn't know about this place, so I'll just repeat:

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All throughout this site I've been reading about new units, advancements, govs, wonders and other stuff that make me dribble. And I hate to think, that so many of the bright concepts will, inevitably, be lost. Also most of the threads are bickering about: why not implement this and that... With a game of Civ type and caliber, there is no possibility to keep everybody (including the publishers) happy, BUT ONE.

Now, the idea is this:
Make CivIII an open-ended game. I'll resort to my favorite example - anyone seen Photoshop? Full of plug-ins? Small applets that enhance and expand it's capabilities? Why not make CivIII like this. And I'm not talking about MODs. Or Sims (though nearer). A plug-in for CivIII could be like a "brick" in the tech-tree. A single wonder, a unit or gov type, or a pack like a single advancement with two new units and one benefit. One of many similar files.

Inside your CivIII folder, there could be a sub-folder called "extensions". When you obtain such a brick (say, a new advancement), you just have to put it into this folder, and fire away. It would automatically be validated by the game, and inserted into an appropriate slot. No installation, no lousy txt files editing. Just plug-n-play. And only if you want to.

These files could be made by Firaxis (they know the code, have the 3D tools, anims, keep the balance of the game, etc.) on the base of an internet user-poll on their website (what do WE FAITHFUL USERS want), and released as commercial product (CD as official expansions packs) or, for smaller packs like a single unit, obtainable through internet download section on non-commercial bases.

This way they'll always keep the buzz about the game - by constantly releasing new additions and not patches. Also, the small size of these "packs" would enable them to release stuff rather frequently.

The map, faction/nation and scenario editors would be ours to have fun with. They could also publish a scaled-down unit editor (for scenarios), though the user-graphics for non-professional units would be 2D (mock-ups), whereas they would make their units 3D with anims.

Of course, there would have to be a "plain vanilla" version of the game, for comparative or competitive (ladder) purposes. Also MP games would have to be the same in contents.
As for coding - these plug-ins are only sub-routines in the grand application program (engine) and a relative ease to code.

for the full discussion plese click CivIII - an open-ended application?