Best defneder the facxts please

Rasputin · August 9, 2001, 01:45

Ok folks, been having some good discussion with a few people over what makes the best defenders. I unfortunatly tend to use the Civ 2 Civlopedia as my guide for units strenghes and weaknesses.

The following three units are my chooices for defneders.
| Cost | Attack | Defence |Hitpts|Firepower|Move
Alpine | 50 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1
Marine | 60 | 8 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1
Storm Trooper | 60 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 2

Also how is combat altered by the position of the atacker, i didnt realise it was , but I ma informed it is. Apparently better to attack form hills than plains....

Where is this info avaialble....

thankyou

Laszlo · August 9, 2001, 01:52

Although a little excessive (and expensive, and only for coastline cities), wouldn't a battleship be the buffest defender? It does have 12 defense points.

Dis · August 9, 2001, 03:09

I use battleships if my city defenders get killed

works good. but they do get a penalty for being in port I think (or is that if they are attacked by only other naval units?)

TechWins · August 9, 2001, 04:21

I think the 'pearl harbor' effect only occured when a ship was being attacked when it's in port either by another ship or by airplane.

The strongest land unit at defence would have to be mech. infantry. 6def/3hp.

H Tower · August 9, 2001, 04:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin

| Cost | Attack | Defence |Hitpts|Firepower|Move
Storm Trooper | 60 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 2

where do you get a stormtrooper from?

Laszlo · August 9, 2001, 05:15

Quote:

Originally posted by H Tower

where do you get a stormtrooper from?

I was about to ask the same thing. Where is it from?

splangy · August 9, 2001, 07:55

maybe its from the fascist mod, but isn't that a fachist?? maybe its just his own home-made unit, however, why would you put it in a discussion bout basic best defenders thou???

shade · August 9, 2001, 08:07

about those ships: every time there are only ships in a city and I attack it i get the msg' XXX catches ship in port' ,I gues this means they always get the pearl harbor effect.

Quote:

| Cost | Attack | Defence |Hitpts|Firepower|Move
Alpine | 50 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1
Marine | 60 | 8 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1
Storm Trooper | 60 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 2

what about Mechanic Infantery?
ADM:6/6/3 Hp=2? Fp=2?

Shade

reds4ever · August 9, 2001, 08:37

i would n't pay 60 shields for a marine when i can get mech inf for 50, IMHO the marine is one of the worst value units in the game, you are better of holding on to riflemen until you can get mech inf or armour.(10 turns at most).

also i was under the impression that attackers position did n't matter in combat! anyone care to shed some light on this?

fittstim · August 9, 2001, 08:50

Stormtroopers are from the Fascist mod pack.

But I have to agree with shade that the mech. inf. is the best unit to defend a city with. And the extra bonus is that it has a move of 3!

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 09:21

The mechanized infantry unit is the best defensive land unit, by far. Well, armor comes close. It has the single best defense strength, 6, and has 3 hit points plus 1 firepower. Aside from armor, no other land unit has 3hp. To top it off, it's cheap! Only 50 shields to the armor's 80.

The penalty for a ship caught in port is a firepower reduction to 1. Thus, a battleship is still a good unit to leave in port. AEGIS cruisers are better if the enemy has flight or rockets. Both have 3hp, so they can take a beating.

This seems like another great place to shamelessly plug my combat thread:
Info: Combat (GL)

fittstim · August 9, 2001, 09:29

OK Marquis, maybe you can explain this:

When the ship is "caught in port" it's firepower is reduced to 1.

Why does this make a battleship better than a mech. inf.? Does the battleship still retain 12a/12d ?

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 09:32

damn slow network

double post...

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 09:35

The best land unit defenders are, in order:

mech. infantry
armor
alpine troops, marines
riflemen, paratroopers, partisans, fanatics
musketeers, cavalry
pikeman (while bonus applies)
howitzer
dragoons
phalanx, archer, legion, knights, pikeman (without bonus)
artillery (okay, from here down is not really defending...)
cannon
the rest...

Did I remember them all?

Fighters are even better than alpine troops and marines, but only if they are in a city without a defender with a def. strength > 3.

Ships work well, too, as mentioned above.

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 09:49

Quote:

Originally posted by fittstim
When the ship is "caught in port" it's firepower is reduced to 1.

Why does this make a battleship better than a mech. inf.? Does the battleship still retain 12a/12d ?

The battleship keeps its defense value of 12. Both units have 3hp and 1fp in this case. The battleship will not benefit from city walls. If walls are present, the Mech Inf unit will be better against any land unit attack.

Battleship 12d
Mech Inf 18d

If there are no walls in the city,

Battleship 12d
Mech Inf 6d, 9d if fortified

Why not just post a battleship in each city to defend? Cost difference is the main reason to use Mech Inf - 50 shields vs. the Battleship's 160 shields.

It just occured to me that something has not been tested in the Combat thread. A ship caught in port does benefit from a coastal fortress, but do the two ships have a firepower reduction? If both or neither do, the question is moot. If only one does, that would be worth noting...

The ANZAC · August 9, 2001, 12:04

doesn't the "Mech" in Mech. Infantry stand for "Mechanized" not "Mechanical"? Also I do agree that it is the best defender, the stats tell all...

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 12:35

Quote:

Originally posted by The ANZAC
doesn't the "Mech" in Mech. Infantry stand for "Mechanized" not "Mechanical"? Also I do agree that it is the best defender, the stats tell all...

Ahem... Yes, you are right. I've corrected my error above. I got caught thinking ahead of my typing...

Ecthy · August 9, 2001, 13:41

sorry, but some people are so stupid it bangs... each civ player should know the unit stats out of his head. it's obvious that the mech inf is the best defending unit. for battleships, the city walls / SAM bonus might not count, but I'm not sure about it... also, units attacking ships in port get +1 on firepoints

Marquis de Sodaq · August 9, 2001, 15:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
...for battleships, the city walls / SAM bonus might not count, but I'm not sure about it... also, units attacking ships in port get +1 on firepoints

To clarify, walls only give land units a defensive bonus. SAMs and coastal fortress help any land or sea unit. Coastal fortress helps any defender. See my combat thread for details about everything to do with civ II combat.

Units attacking ships in port only gain relatively. The ship unit has its firepower reduced to 1. The attacking unit firepower does not change.

Ecthy · August 9, 2001, 17:11

well, if I attack a trireme in a city with a firepower1 unit, it seems that attack unit attacks with a firepower of 2, according to the defending ship losing energy...

Rasputin · August 9, 2001, 20:20

ok a little explanatrion.

I wasnt asking what is the best defender of all units, but given theose three chooses which was best.. I had many people telling me that Alpine uint sere the best as they had more firepoer than what is stated in civlopedia. The Stromtroopers are from a mod pack , yes.

I guess my question is, is the civlopedia correct or do some units perfrom differnetly to what it says. Also is there any advantage of attacking from hills.

fittstim · August 10, 2001, 06:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
sorry, but some people are so stupid it bangs...

Why are you such a mean person, Ecthelion???

Marquis de Sodaq · August 10, 2001, 09:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
...is there any advantage of attacking from hills.

The attacker's terrain is irrelevant. The only factors that affect the attacker's strength are special conditions (e.g. fighter attacks helicopter), veteran status, and if the attacker is a barbarian.

I've seen no evidence that the alpine troop behaves differently than its numbers suggest.

reds4ever · August 10, 2001, 09:46

in the rules.txt the alpine troops are discribed exactly as they are in the civopedia and the civ poster so i would be very suprised if they differ in the game, perhaps you've been the victim of a civ version of an urban myth?

Ecthy · August 10, 2001, 16:28

Quote:

Originally posted by fittstim

Why are you such a mean person, Ecthelion???

as I said on the other thread, some people deserve some... Läuterung

SlowThinker · August 11, 2001, 06:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
It just occured to me that something has not been tested in the Combat thread. A ship caught in port does benefit from a coastal fortress, but do the two ships have a firepower reduction? If both or neither do, the question is moot. If only one does, that would be worth noting...

I don't understand. Which two ships?

Father Beast · August 11, 2001, 09:13

In my games, I typically don't bother with alpines or marines, although I find them defending AI cities regularly. IMO, these have different uses. I won't hesitate to use my attacking marines or alpines to defend a newly taken city, though.

I generally get bronze working as fast as I can, then it's a long way to gunpowder and musketeers. Riflemen are next, with the last upgrade being Mechanized Infantry. At these points are where I bother to upgrade my defensive units. I noticed a while back that it leads to a certain vulnerability if I have some cities defended by riflemen, and some still only have a phalanx!

Mercator · August 11, 2001, 11:11

Back to your questio, Rasputin... All three of them have 5 defense, 2 HP and 1 FP. So in defending there´s absolutely no difference whatsoever. But the Apine Troops are cheapest, so.
The only reason you might want to pick one of the others is if you´re intending to use them for some small attacks as well, say to kill off an enemy Howitzer that´s just arrived. In that case you could have one of your two of three defenders be a Marine, or better an additional Armor, Howitzer or Fighter, but those weren´t among the list.

rah · August 11, 2001, 18:36

The only advantage using Alpine units was that you could build them before the war academy expired. It made for a good combo.

RAH

Marquis de Sodaq · August 11, 2001, 23:23

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowThinker

I don't understand. Which two ships?

If one ship attacks a city, catching a second ship in port.