Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS

[Dauphin]

England is the baddy and Wales has been victimised,

Mmm, I agree. The generalisation is wrong going back centuries

The problem is that the English today don't associate themselves with what "England" did to Scotland and Wales. The Scots remember WW and RR as fellow countrymen but we see Longshanks et al as just something from historybooks.

Also about victimisation - Do you still hear my fellow Kentrymen complaining about what the English King did to Watt Tyler and his peasants revolt?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Grumbold

There are many Scottish discoveries and inventions listed at http://www.fife.50megs.com/scottish_inventions.html
unfortunately most of these stem from after 1603 when the English and Scottish thrones were united.

That site is a bit much. It claims King Arthur was a Scot

As someone who has no connection to Britain, here's an objective assessment of the so-called Celtic civilization. The Celts were, at best, a semi-civilized people whose only notable achievement was stacking a bunch of rocks together. They were largely destroyed by the Romans. Out of the ashes come the Scots, Irish and Welsh. For the next 1500 years they made virtually no contributuion to the civilized world. Then they become part of Britain and there is an explosion of concepts resulting in various Irish, Welsh, and most notably the Scottish people making extremely significant and vital contributions to the world.

The greatness of the British civilization could not have been done individually by the English, Scots, Irish or Welsh. It is a classic example of the sum being greater than the parts. This is why Civ3 should have the British civlization, not the English, and certainly not the Celts. I know it will be hard for some people to accept, but the Celts were an insignificant civilization.

[Zor]

Just a question, but if the Celts are an "insignificant civilization" then what makes the Zulus significant? (seriously i want to know)

[Ruffinshot]

The Celts rate as a Civ because at one time they controlled most of western Europe. That they got stomped is immaterial. There aren't a lot of Babylonians around these days either, but they made it in. The Zulus rate for a similar reason. When they were interrupted by the Dutch colonization of southern Africa they were in the process of consolidating the Bantu tribes that had moved south to take the area from its Xhosa residents. (Actually, the Civ should probably be the Bantu with Shaka at its head.) Arabs certainly rate (and I'm looking for a city list if anyone has one) as do Germans, Norse (not "Vikings"... that was something the Norse did), Rus, Chinese, Hindi, Turks, and so on. Any large group of people who made a noticable mark on history should be included as a civ. Jamaica, Cuba, Nicaragua, Indonesian (Javanese! Ask East Timor whether there's an Indonesian and you may as well be listening to Wales talk about Britain), etc. are constructs and spin-off nations derived from their native civs.

What would be interesting would be to have secondary Civs that spin-off from their parents when there's a revolt, and make revolts more common, particularly with distance from the capital -

English - America, Canada, Australia
Portugal - Brazil
Spain - Nicaragua, Cuba, Chile, etc.
Russia - Poland, Serbia (not fair, true, but they're all Slavic)
Roman/Italian - Venetian, Genoan
France - well, all the French are revolting so I'm at a loss.

If done right you could start with eight major civs and end up with twenty. Granting "independence" to cities to form a new civ could be an option too, as well as forcing your enemies to do the same.

[St Leo]

1. Do you see me complaining about Latvians not making it in? Neither of the two Baltic nations is in. Helheim, I wouldn't mind being represented by the Germanic Teutonic Knights; after all, they were a key player in the Baltic rivalling Poland and Sweden.

2. The Zulus are in because Firaxis has never heard of the Mali.

Finally; The ancient Celts Aren't Barbarians!!! Heck, They built Stonehenge without wheels using stone from Wales

Yep, they are up there with the Easter Island civilization.

[Dauphin]

The Celts rate as a Civ because at one time they controlled most of western Europe

Where they at any point a united group though? I thought that Celt was a collective term for many sub-groups, for example Boudicea only ruled a small area in East Anglia.

I think your statement a bit akin to saying Europeans rate as a civ because at one point they owned all of Europe.

[Ruffinshot]

Where they at any point a united group though?

Last I checked the game was called "Civilization", not "Nation-State". The Greeks were fractured into hundreds of distinct city-states, the Indians broken along linguistic and religious lines (still are), and the Germans not unified until the 19th century. Unity doesn't determine a culture.

Any group of people with a distinct culture (which usually entails common language, religion, taboos and mores, etc.) rates as far as deciding who can be a Civ. Generally the designers have tried to include the largest of them, and by that measure Celts should be included.

[Zor]

Ok, I know I'm way off topic here, but I just wanted to know what the difference is between MI6 and MI5? I've always been curious and I just wanted to know.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Zor
Ok, I know I'm way off topic here, but I just wanted to know what the difference is between MI6 and MI5? I've always been curious and I just wanted to know.

One works within the UK, the other deals with foreign affairs.

[Zor]

Thank you

[Dauphin]

Although your not wrong it that RJ, I think it is more intelligence/counter-intelligence in their classification.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by SITS
First thanks for the great post XarXo - I learnt a lot from it. I've been to Barcelona and I loved the city and the people. One of the images that I still have is at midnight I saw a whole exteneded family - Grand-parents down to grand-kids playing boules (sp?) in a park. I was blown away by seeing this in a major city and I couldn't imagine it happening here. The only thing I really knew about Catalonia is ETA which is not a good level of ignorance, I agree.

.

yeah, especially since ETA is basque, not catalonian. Im only an ignorant yank and even I know that.

LOTM

[kIndal]

I know that there is forum about English-Wales...but I want to say a pair of things that I think must be cleared about Spain, Catalonia...Xarxo, when you write this big letters, please call to everybody or foreign readers (from Spain ) cannot know the other side of this info.

Catalanoaragonese Crown (known as Kingdom of Aragón and Count of Barcelona, by the shortest name, "Crown of Aragón")

You forget the kingdom of Valencia in the long name of the Crown of Aragon.(why do you always forget them?)

Barcelona (the olympic one ) with a 4'7 milions in its metropolitan area, València with 2'2, and Mallorca with 0'5,

ehhh do you confused cities (or metropolitan areas) with provinces?, Barcelona city is 2 milions and Valencia is 800000, his provinces are right but not their cities.

also there another cities. Catalanesque is the ONLY official in the tiny state of Andorra, is small, but is independent and, so, catalanesque is internationally official.

It is false, Catalan and Valencian are too oficial languages in Spain, you only have to read the Spanish Constitution. In Catalonia there are two oficial languages Catalan and Castilian as in the others regions which have more languages.

The castillians is starting to be strange (again) in some zones of Catalonia,

Where do you live? in a small lost village in Pyrenees???and in this places don´t speak Castilian between them (I don´t found the problem to this) but know and can speak Castilian.

(Ramon Llull, one of the most important ones), we had popes in the Vaticano (we ressurected Rome The "bit-barbarian" valencian family of Borgia make a lot of bad things, but a big ones too!).

These two are Valencian and I have to remember you that in Valencia the Catalanism is a small, small movement (I live in Valencia I know it better than you)

In a short period, a catalan flag was at the top of the Parthenon, in Athina.

Why don´t say the Aragonese one?Or Llul and Borgia (from Valencia)are cataloaragonese when are needed but when the fact or the person are properly Catalan, they are ONLY Catalan.

Castillian is spoken by the 35% of Catalonia and 47% in Valencian Country too

I don´t know the stadistcs, but about Valencia and Alicante I believe is false, here almost all people speak Castilian. And other things this sentences exclude the other language, I don´t believed that in Catalonia there is a 65% catalonians that don´t speak Castilian and you know that they speak both languages, they speak beteen them Catalan (OK!!) but they can speak Castilian perfectly.

(NOTE: "Español" name for the language was used in Spain the first time at 1927, the true name is castillian)

Yes and in the maps from Roman times to modern era (included the famous Medieval Catalan maps) the iberian peninsula is called Hispania, Spagna, España...

is a *great* language with *a lot* of speakers,

Yes, about 400 milions. (more than OFICIAL English speaker)

is a great thing, but it isn't our language, so we want have our own language in the top position, and castillian in the second too!

And why not equal??? we cannot speak about a Catalonian race, or you forget the sons and grandsons of Galicians, Andalusians, Castilian or Aragonese who arrive to Catalonia only this century (don´t speak about other centuries), do you want to expell them from their homes in Catalonia? They are Catalonian too. As the sons of Catalonian Almeria are almerieneses.

The last one is this: This hate to Spain is only a legacy of Franco´s age, but please don´t live in the past (or I have to remeber when Catalans destroy my city and hate you), North Irland is fighting for get the same things that you have yet.
And don´t forget that I have less rights than you because I amnot Catalonian, I cannot get most jobs in Catalonia because I don´t speak Catalan (you marginalized me there) but in the other side you can get job in all Spain without problems .
And why are there regions that have less rights than others???only because you speak one language more and have other customs and traditions????? I speak Castilian, English and German and I would like to learn French...so do I deserve more rights than a person who only speak Catalan??

This threads you can write in Spanish forum too, so everybody can tell you their opinion about the theme.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by kIndal
I know that there is forum about English-Wales...but I want to say a pair of things that I think must be cleared about Spain, Catalonia...Xarxo, when you write this big letters, please call to everybody or foreign readers (from Spain ) cannot know the other side of this info.

For lazy readers, I will resume this:

Is the answer of the last message, posted by a castillian-speaker that lives in a catalanesque-speakers area. Usually the castillian speakers in no-castillian area doesn't know the true reality, 'coz they don't have interest in it (they don't know it until in the CV the firm needs catalanesque speaker people). This is aplicable almost 60% of the castiallian-speaker people.

kIndal, there is no other side, now read why

Originally posted by kIndal
You forget the kingdom of Valencia in the long name of the Crown of Aragon.(why do you always forget them?)

The Kingdom of València was create after the creation of the crown, its name wasn't really integrated in the big one. But yes, the Kingdom of València is in the Crown of Aragon too.

Originally posted by kIndal
ehhh do you confused cities (or metropolitan areas) with provinces?, Barcelona city is 2 milions and Valencia is 800000, his provinces are right but not their cities.

No, I'm speaking of the Metropolitan Region, New York has 4 millions in its city border, but truly has 17. Tokio 6 and 30 in its region, etc... Madrid has 3 and 5 in it, London 5 and has 10 in the true borders. Barcelona is a City Region, and València too, there are a big center with a crown of big towns that enlarges the area.

The city border as the city population area is and obsolete idea when the city has filled all the free space (and when creates a ring of middle cities in its borders).

Originally posted by kIndal
It is false, Catalan and Valencian are too oficial languages in Spain, you only have to read the Spanish Constitution. In Catalonia there are two oficial languages Catalan and Castilian as in the others regions which have more languages.

Eihn? I'm speaking of ANDORRA! And the secessionist idea of catalan/valencian has ended, read the news, the AVLL has been created and the united idea now is the official, the secessionist movement is disappearing (making a lot of noise).

Originally posted by kIndal
Where do you live? in a small lost village in Pyrenees???and in this places don´t speak Castilian between them (I don´t found the problem to this) but know and can speak Castilian.

Buf, a 90% aprox knows castillian in Catalonia, but IT ISN'T USED, go to Vic, Solsona, are towns of 30.000 / 50.000 and only a 3% of the population uses castillian!!

Originally posted by kIndal
These two are Valencian and I have to remember you that in Valencia the Catalanism is a small, small movement (I live in Valencia I know it better than you)

Is small in València, in Castelló de la Plana is a 20%, and in Alacant a 12% too. But I'm not speaking of nationalist movements, the Valencian Country IS a nation, its nationalism born at the XV century!!

Originally posted by kIndal
Why don´t say the Aragonese one?Or Llul and Borgia (from Valencia)are cataloaragonese when are needed but when the fact or the person are properly Catalan, they are ONLY Catalan.

Arf, arf, arf... This guy is annoying!! Llull was balearian, the Borgia valencian, but all them spoke the catalanesque, and, for your curiousity, in the Vaticano Court the Borgia Family was known as the "catalani".

In the crown of aragon happened the same with The Low Countries, everybody call it "Holland", but there is Frisia too!

Originally posted by kIndal
I don´t know the stadistcs, but about Valencia and Alicante I believe is false, here almost all people speak Castilian. And other things this sentences exclude the other language, I don´t believed that in Catalonia there is a 65% catalonians that don´t speak Castilian and you know that they speak both languages, they speak beteen them Catalan (OK!!) but they can speak Castilian perfectly.

Again the same thing, but the reverse one, they USE castillian, but in family/coloquial the predominant one is valencian. kIndal, you are castillian speaker? The people spoke in the language of the user.

Originally posted by kIndal
Yes and in the maps from Roman times to modern era (included the famous Medieval Catalan maps) the iberian peninsula is called Hispania, Spagna, España...

Hispania is pretty different from España, kIndal. Is like Britain and United Kingdom. The most known name for the territoy is Iberia
, Hispania is the territiry name, lique Italica and Italia, Paennonia and The Old Yugoslavia, etc... And what is its significance? Portugal is in "Hispania" too, and it isn't España!! The "Nación España" doesn't exist, only is an invention of radical castillians from the XV to these days.

Originally posted by kIndal
Yes, about 400 milions. (more than OFICIAL English speaker)

Castillian is a great language, but it isn't the properly from the catalanesque area. Sorry. If you don't understand this, ask to swedish people why they don't have only english, they use it a lot
but it isn't the properly from their country.

Originally posted by kIndal
And why not equal??? we cannot speak about a Catalonian race, or you forget the sons and grandsons of Galicians, Andalusians, Castilian or Aragonese who arrive to Catalonia only this century (don´t speak about other centuries), do you want to expell them from their homes in Catalonia? They are Catalonian too. As the sons of Catalonian Almeria are almerieneses.

This sounds fascist. You vote PP yes? The nationality of everyone is personal, I know people that wants the independence for Catalonia and don't speak catalanesque.

Originally posted by kIndal
The last one is this: This hate to Spain is only a legacy of Franco´s age, but please don´t live in the past (or I have to remeber when Catalans destroy my city and hate you), North Irland is fighting for get the same things that you have yet.
And don´t forget that I have less rights than you because I amnot Catalonian, I cannot get most jobs in Catalonia because I don´t speak Catalan (you marginalized me there) but in the other side you can get job in all Spain without problems .
And why are there regions that have less rights than others???only because you speak one language more and have other customs and traditions????? I speak Castilian, English and German and I would like to learn French...so do I deserve more rights than a person who only speak Catalan??

Yes, you vote the PP, now I'm sure. So, if I follow your ideas, "I must speak castillian and forget a catalonia nation idea becasue is antidemocratic" , also you will say me "castillian is more useful cause is spoken by more people" ? This isn't democracy, this is fascism!! If I want speak catalan and I want a catalan nation, why I have to forget it? Only castillian speakers have the truth? You are one of these one that want the catalan only spoken in villages and used in low cultural spheres? Is pathetic! Sorry man, catalanesque IS a language, IS official, IS spoken by 10 milions, is a reality! If you don't like this, you are free to think this! You are in a democracy!! BUT, THIS ISN'T A POLITIC FORUM, SO PLEASE, TO TYPE THIS AMOUNT OF BULLSHlT THAT DOESN'T CHANGES ANYTHING, use a specific political forum!! These guys are speaking about CIVILIZATION III, a great game with amaizing graphics but doesn't have celtic/castillian tribe! THAT'S ALL!!!!

Originally posted by kIndal
This threads you can write in Spanish forum too, so everybody can tell you their opinion about the theme.

Buf, no thanks, everybody knows that the spanish forum is a spanish-great castilla nationalist center. Only see that Pizarro scenarios and another genocide thematic scenarios. What if I made a "Hitler's Great Crusade" scenario? Sure that you don't like it!! Only for Jay Bee or Fiera I post something, they are brains in hispanic story (and open-minded people ) !!!

[kIndal]

ok,ok I have send you a private.

Arf, arf, arf... This guy is annoying!!

Yes I know, I know hehehe

and, for your curiousity, in the Vaticano Court the Borgia Family was known as the "catalani".

Other one, in Argentina you would be called "gallego" and don´t be galician.

[lupusmalus]

Originally posted by Ruffinshot


Last I checked the game was called "Civilization", not "Nation-State". The Greeks were fractured into hundreds of distinct city-states, the Indians broken along linguistic and religious lines (still are), and the Germans not unified until the 19th century. Unity doesn't determine a culture.

Any group of people with a distinct culture (which usually entails common language, religion, taboos and mores, etc.) rates as far as deciding who can be a Civ. Generally the designers have tried to include the largest of them, and by that measure Celts should be included.

Perfectly right, we're talking about "civilizations" here, and not only did the Celts overrun most of Europe, from Ireland to Ankara, in 387 BC they almost nipped the rise of the Roman Republic in the bud and Julius Caesar's first, last and only defeat in battle was at their hands, at Gergovia in 52 BC (anyone read "Asterix"? ) Stonehenge wasn't built by them, though, these rocks had been standing there for a long already when they arrived. Still, they had enough cultural achievements of their own, the first highly sophisticated civilization north of the Alps to be precise, producing incredibly beautiful pieces of art etc. Also around 1000AD there was a thing called the "Irish Mission" which did a lot to reinvigorate the then highly decadent Catholic Church (although it's probably debatable whether that was that positive an achievement), the "Book of Kells" is the oldest preserved book in the world (and in a very beautiful script to boot), etc. And then of course there is Whiskey the absence of which a lot a people would rather regret, I guess

As someone else suggested: use the editor!!! Oh, and the Zulus were the only sub-Saharan people which ever managed to defeat a colonial army in battle, so I guess that makes them at least as good a representative of this region as any other. And there's a highly interesting thread about the Iroquois somewhere. People who talk about "uncivilised barbarians" should perhaps first get informed about what they're talking about. Not to mention reviewing their attitude towards people who are different in general...