The most disappointing NON-IMPROVEMENT revealed at Civ3.com IS...(ATTENTION FIRAXIS!)

[Arator]

The FATAL flaw in Civ III's design is revealed in this screen shot:

http://www.civ3.com/images/screenshots/playersetup.jpg

Check out the "Your Civ" selection window in the "Player Set Up" screen.

What you will see is:

1) ONLY 16 built-in Civs, cut back from the 21 built-in Civs in Civ II. GONE are the CELTS, the SPANISH, the JAPANESE, the CARTHAGENIANS, and the MONGOLS. This would be barely tolerable ONLY IF we were also given the means to ADD CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, random map game. But, as you can see...

2) The "Your Civ" selector is the same rigid, inflexable, locked-in BUTTON TOGGLE that we had in Civ II. This means that WE CANNOT ADD OUR OWN CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, random map game. At best, it will be like Civ II, where CUSTOM CIVS were consigned to the SCENARIO GHETTO and could only be played with a fixed, non-random map OR CUSTOM CIVS replaced and eliminated already built-in Civs, making problematic multiplayer play and forcing an ugly zero sum game. Since in Civ III, we have even fewer built-in Civs to begin with, this is simply UNACCEPTABLE!

So, unless FIRAXIS changes this, millions of Civ Players will not be able to play a standard, random map game with and against the Civs of their choice and the fun of Civ III will be greatly and unnecessarily diminished.

I have read many complaints posted on this board. Hispanic Civers are incensed at the fact that the SPANISH are gone. Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Civers lament the loss of the CELTS. But, also, there are Civers the world over who would greatly enjoy and appreciate being able to ADD CUSTOM CIVS OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING to play with and against. All the belly-aching and disappointment about which built-in Civs are included and how many are included would be alieviated by ALLOWING US ALL TO ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN THE STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME!

Firaxis, what say you? Why haven't you done this? Can you still do it? Or will we have to wait for Civ IV for THIS BASIC ADVANCE IN CIV II's POOR GAME DESIGN?

I do hope you will address this IMPORTANT issue. Frankly, the appeal of your new version will be greatly diminished for millions of Civers if this FATAL FLAW in Civ III's design is not fixed. It's been 10 years since Civ II. This flaw in Civ II was forgivable. To have it continue into the next iteration 10 years later is UNACCEPTABLE!

I don't want a Civ III that I cannot fully customize. And I'm not talking only about SCENARIOS. I want the ability to ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN A STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME! This is even more critical now that the number of built-in Civs has been CUT BACK to ONLY 16.

Can you do it? Is there still time? Or will be have to wait for Civ IV?

[MarkG]

The "Your Civ" selector ought to be an infinitely expandable drop down menu like the "Your Opponents" selectors are. That way, any custom civs we create and add to the built in civs will be selectable as either "Your Civ" or "Your Opponents" in a standard game.

aaaargh, gulp, you're right....

[TechWins]

Maybe their will be an expanded amount of room when the limit excedes the capacity. Meaning right now there appears to be 18 slots open but only 17 are being used. Lets say you create two more civs so that would mean you would need 19 slots. What could happen is two more slots will open up but in order to see those slots you will have to scroll down. The scroll bar would appear when more than 18 slots are in. Do you understand? I'm not sure if it's like this at all but it's an optimistic possibility.

[Zanzin]

How hard would it be to add a vertical scroll bar so that any extra civs you've created could also be selected?

[Arator]

Originally posted by MarkG
aaaargh, gulp, you're right....

To me, this is just critical because I, frankly, don't want to play as any of the civs they included (I like the CELTS) and I would like to play against many civs they excluded (ARABS, ISRAELIS, SPANISH, INCAS, TURKS, DUTCH, PORTUGUESE, POLYNESIAN, CARTHAGENIAN, etc.).

I thought Firaxis was going to provide us the flexability which Civ2 lacked. I thought they were going to enable us to add our own custom civs to the playable mix. This is why when the news came out that there were only 16 built in civs, we could tolerate it because of the promise that we could add our own custom civs ourselves.

But now that appears not to be the case. The "Player Set Up" graphics are LOCKED IN with the 16 built in Civs -- no more and no less.

I know that I am not alone here. Most Civ Players would like to play as and against Civ's of their own choosing NOT LIMITED TO the mere 16 built in Civs Firaxis has provided. This customizability is the only thing that can redeem the step backwards to ONLY 16 built in civs!

In sum: Only 16 built in civs + NO ABILITY TO ADD AND PLAY WITH OR AGAINST CUSTOM CIVS = NON STARTER

It's going backwards, not forwards. It is NOT the Civ of my dreams. It is not even close.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Arator
In sum: Only 16 built in civs + NO ABILITY TO ADD AND PLAY WITH OR AGAINST CUSTOM CIVS = NON STARTER

to be fair, it seems like you will be able to get rid of some civs and put in the ones you like in the 16-civs selection

but it's not perfect....

[Nemo]

my guess is that when you edit the text file you can replace any of the civ's in the list, but not add more.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Nemo
you can replace any of the civ's in the list, but not add more.

i think it will rather be like ctp1/2: you can add more but they wont show up in the selection screen(but they will appear sas your oppponents)

[Arator]

Originally posted by TechWins
Maybe their will be an expanded amount of room when the limit excedes the capacity. Meaning right now there appears to be 18 slots open but only 17 are being used. Lets say you create two more civs so that would mean you would need 19 slots. What could happen is two more slots will open up but in order to see those slots you will have to scroll down. The scroll bar would appear when more than 18 slots are in. Do you understand? I'm not sure if it's like this at all but it's an optimistic possibility.

Well, it's possible that a scroll bar might pop up, but it sure doesn't look like it. It looks like the same rigid inflexable button toggle selector we had in Civ II where any Custom Civ one might create was either relegated to the Scenario Ghetto where random maps were not possible OR (even worse) replaced and eliminated one of the already built-in civs, rendering a common multiplayer standard set impossible.

I did this, of course, in Civ II. I replaced the Mongols with the Turks, the Japanese with the Israelis and the Carthagenians with the Arabs. This is great when playing a one person game but it completely screws up your multiplayer. Plus, its a dreadful zero sum game.

With only 16 built in civs, we simply must be able to add NOT SUBTRACT from the playable mix seamlessly for this game to be any fun at all. To me, and many other civ players, the identities of the the Civs we play and play against MATTER! It is not a trivial issue. It is a GAME BREAKER!

Firaxis, I'm telling you, don't regress in this regard. You've already cut back the number of Civs from Civ II's 21 to 16. You have emiminated my beloved Celts. If you, at the same time, deny us the ability to add our own custom civs to the playable mix in the standard game, you have diminished, not enhanced, the Civ experience.

I'm telling you this issue is VERY IMPORTANT to me. If it is not resolved favorably in Civ 3, I will wait for Civ 4 where it hopefully, at long last, will be.

[Arator]

Originally posted by Nemo
my guess is that when you edit the text file you can replace any of the civ's in the list, but not add more.

If so, then Civ 3 is no better than Civ 2 in this crucial area. In fact, it is a regression, as there are now only 16 built in civs to play with MAX instead of 21.

What is so GALLING about this is that it would be so easy to fix and fixing it would provide so much more enjoyment in playing the game to Civers. So why is it NOT being done? THIS IS BASIC! And yet, here we are with even fewer built in Civs than before and no apparent ability to add custom civs to the mix. It's just crazy!

Firaxis, what say you? Why have you not given us this basic feature? Why have you cut back the number of built in civs to 16 without it? This is MADDENING for us CIV LOVERS! And I am a CIV LOVER, otherwise, I wouldn't be so TICKED OFF ABOUT THIS!

/rant

[Nemo]

i think it will rather be like ctp1/2: you can add more but they wont show up in the selection screen(but they will appear sas your oppponents)

ewwww! yuck! That would suck!

[Urban Ranger]

What are you mumbling about?

First of all, you're looking at a single player setup screen.

Secondly, You only play one civ at a time, yes? So why is there a need for a player to choose from a large number of civs? Isn't 16 customisable ones good enough for you? If you actually paid attention you'll see the caption underneath the central portrait goes, "Brother Bluto of the Deltas," clearly a custom civ.

Thirdly, there's no indication you can't play against custom civs. Where's that?

[Arator]

Originally posted by MarkG

to be fair, it seems like you will be able to get rid of some civs and put in the ones you like in the 16-civs selection

but it's not perfect....

Not perfect is right! It's a regression. Less built in civs to play with + the same clumsy zero-sum non-customizability as Civ 2? Give me a break!

It's been how many years since Civ2? Why should it be so difficult to get such a basic improvment? Why do we have to beg? It wouldn't have been so bad if they had expanded the built in Civs to say 32. But NO, they cut them back to 16 and STILL didn't give us the ability to seamlessly add custom civs to the playable mix!

I say this is UNACCEPTABLE! And I'm calling on all Civers to make their feelings known on this! It should not be that hard to provide us this basic feature. DO IT Firaxis. I BEG you. LOL.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
So why is there a need for a player to choose from a large number of civs? Isn't 16 customisable ones good enough for you?

no because i would like to play as the jamaicans without removing a civ

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MarkG
no because i would like to play as the jamaicans without removing a civ

Oh no, not the dreaded jamaicans!

Realistically speaking, it's a little limited - perhaps 32 would be a better choice. This debate has occurred before, and a likely explanation is the diplomacy screen allows only 16, or something like that.

[Arator]

Originally posted by MarkG
no because i would like to play as the jamaicans without removing a civ

I suppose you would rather play as that hyper-pc (and ahistorical) black as a Nubian/sub-Saharan African Egyptian Pharaoh. LOL.

Seriously, though, there is great value to many Civers to be able to play as a Civ they identify with culturally and against other Civs they are culturally antagonistic to. It inhances the Civ experience.

Eli, for example, would love to play as his people, the Israelis, no doubt, and against the Arabs, I am guessing. Well, why shouldn't that be a customizable option for him in a standard, random map game? It should be.

And that goes for everyone else too.

It's called creating playability and enhanced enjoyment of the game. Isn't that what game makers are always striving to do? Well, this is a very basic way to do just that. It's simple compared to all the other more subtle and complex improvements Firaxis has already made. It would be so easy and it would mean so much to so many of Civs biggest fans.

Are you listening to my PRIMAL SCREAM Firaxis?

[Arator]

Originally posted by MarkG
no because i would like to play as the jamaicans without removing a civ

Just to give you an idea of my ideal Civ set up with Custom Civs, it would be:

Play as the CELTS (who have much more cultural resonance for me than the hated English or the culturally amorphous and relatively new Americans, for the British block) against the other primary Civilizational blocks of the world:

1) The Russians (for the Christian-Orthodox block)
2) The ARABS (for the Islamic block)
3) The Chinese (most populous civ in world, the East Asian block)
4) The Indians (2nd most populous civ in world, Hindu-Bhudist block)
5) The SPANISH/French/German (for the Western European block)
6) The INCAS/Aztec/Iroquoix (for the Native American block)
7) The Zulus (for the sub-saharan African block)

That would be my perfect civ game (if I only get a maximum of 7 opponents) and to achieve it, I would need to add custom civs for the CELTS, ARABS, SPANISH, and INCAS

But, I would also add the ISRAELIS and play with them on occasion (because I like them).

The point is, Civ 3 ought to provide all players the means to do this in a standard, random map game, with whatever custom civs we want to add for whatever reason. Don't you agree?

[Mannamagnus]

As much as I would have liked to have been able to play as the Dutch, I don't understand all the commotion.
Do you realy care once you're say an hour into the game if you're playing as the English, Russians or French?
To me the only thing that seems important that I'm able to pick a civ that matches my style of play; and if I realy realy want them to be called the Dutch I'm sure I can change some .txt file somewhere.

[Yog-Sothoth]

This is dissapointing indeed. I'm very excited about the customization tools which I think will be great, but it's a concern that the menus and screens (like the diplo screen) seems very rigid and may not work very well with more civs/altered rules.

Good idea about pull down menus for custom civs, this would mean a lot and be easy to implement.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Arator
Eli, for example, would love to play as his people, the Israelis, no doubt, and against the Arabs, I am guessing.

Which reminds me...

Do we have the "obliterate city" option?

[Colon™]

I don’t know whether I’m telling something new here, but deriving from that picture it seem to me that the 7th opponent no longer will be barbarian, so you’ll now have the option to play against 7 complete AI civs or 7 human players.

[Nikolai]

Maybe they have it like in EU: when it isn't enough space left, a scroll bar automaticly comes up!

[Grim Legacy]

I thought the gameplay was limited to 7 civs, while the choice of opponents is limited to 16.

In that case, it would not matter if there was no 'scrolling option' - you'd just have to edit the civs you didn't want to play with/against, to be able to select a custom civ.

Am I wrong here?

[Nikolai]

With the scroll bar, you can add new civs without deleting the other(s). That is better IMO.

[Colon™]

Grim, in that screenshot I see the option to choose 7 opponents, which means you can have 8 civs participating in a game. That isn’t so dissimilar from civ2, except that the 8th civ were the barbarians. That also means you can play against 7 humans instead of 6 as is the case now.

IMHO that's a nice improvement, albeit a non-revolutionary one.

[Steve Clark]

Sheesh. I really doubt that any of you will be playing against all of these civs. So just alter the rules.txt file, replace Aztecs with Celts, put in all of their unique attributes and when this screen comes up, click on Celts to play. What's part of that don't you understand?!?

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Sheesh. I really doubt that any of you will be playing against all of these civs. So just alter the rules.txt file, replace Aztecs with Celts, put in all of their unique attributes and when this screen comes up, click on Celts to play. What's part of that don't you understand?!?

The thing is that I want to add a civ without being forced to delete an excisting one. If this can be accomplished with simply adding a pull down menu, then they should do just that.

[Inverse Icarus]

whats up with "Zulu Land"... is their civ a theme park one?

or is "Zulu Land" a more correct, :sigh:PC:sigh: name? i not the AZTEC EMPIRE is like that because they encompasses more than their native people.

[KrazyHorse]

Zululand was a well-recognised political entity from earlier this century.

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth


The thing is that I want to add a civ without being forced to delete an excisting one.

Why?!? Just save a copy of the original rules.txt and create/download one that has all of your favorite civs in there. Folks have modified rules.txt all of the time in Civ2, it's not a big deal.