The most disappointing NON-IMPROVEMENT revealed at Civ3.com IS...(ATTENTION FIRAXIS!)

[Inverse Icarus]

thanks and sorry for being a moron

::meow:: @ kh

[Mahdimael]

Well, earlier in the 20th century

Maybe I'm not following here, but if you can only play with 8 civs at a time, why does it matter if you have to change the name of one of the 16? Or is this the old "We need 803 civs in every game" argument? If it's the former, just keep a backup copy of civs.txt or whatever and copy it back when you want to play with whatever civs you want. I'm sure it will be an easy process.

If it's the latter, then I am similarly perplexed. If the game is balanced to play with 8 civs, then wouldn't 16 unbalance the game? On a normal map, there is only so much room. I would think it would be much less fun to only be able to have 2 cities as opposed to 6+. Not to mention all of the problems you would have with resources, etc.

It's all a moot point to me. I play with a random civ every time I play civilization. Perhaps it's just me, but maybe it gives slight insight and understanding into each culture's differences. But then again, who am I to preach understanding and insight?

[Shadowstrike]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Zululand was a well-recognised political entity from earlier this century.

Wouldn't KwaZulu, or something along those lines b a better name? "Zululand" drips of imperialistic superiority.

[Harlan]

This reminds me of another problem I noticed. The new diplomacy screen is very nice, where you can see relationships between all the civs as different types of lines. But clearly there's only room for a maximum of 8 on that screen. So how can you play a game with more than 8 civs at once? Its not just a case of adding scrolls bars - you'd need to completely change this to make it work with more than 8 civs. This must be one of the things Dan meant when he said 16 civs were possible, but some of the screens would only work up to 8.

[Arator]

FIRAXIS, where are you?

I see that you have clarified many trivial questions like "Is this a naked Statue of Liberty?" but you continue to shun this thread which raises a fundamental game play FLAW apparent in Civ 3, one that is a GAME KILLER to many of us!

Dan, could be please clarify just where we currently stand with respect to being able to ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN A STANDARD, NON-SCENARIO RANDOM MAP GAME?

Will it be possible? Can it be possible? Or, as it seems from your
"Player Set Up" screen shot, is Civ 3 just like Civ 2 and totally uncustomizable in that regard (without, perversely, eliminating one of the already built in Civs)?

Dan, could you help us out here by clarifying these questions for us?

Thanks.

[SerapisIV]

Chill out, we haven't seen all the screenshots or setup up screens. While I doubt it, who knows, maybe theres earlier screens that allow you to choose different civs. And why isn't Firaxis answering? They answer only when they want to and usually when the questions are short. With the massive influx in new info and Firaxis Dan already added to the deluge, I doubt there'll be much new information for a little bit to let everyone digest what they already gave out.

[SerapisIV]

Oh yeah, being that we've already seen an Animal House themed civ in a normal and regular game, so there is little doubt that you can change the Civs around. While it might not be as simple as point and click, its obvious that you can change the civs however you like them. It is not a "Gamekiller" issue as you rant about.

[Fintilgin]

Without getting into an argument about `play balance' and `slowing to a crawl', I'm very excited about playing with more then eight civs at once, and thus obviously am disapointed that many screens won't support more then eight. I know we'll be able to tweak this number in the text files, but if the game dosn't support it, and you can't see the information then its not much of an option.

I'm cynical enough however, to belive that modified screens and options to play with 16 Civs at once will be one of the selling bullets on the CivIII expansion pack. Would adding scroll bars in this release have been so hard? Probably not...

Mark my words...

(I'm still really excited about the game though, even if this one thing does frustrate me to no end. )

Joe

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by UberKruX
whats up with "Zulu Land"... is their civ a theme park one?

or is "Zulu Land" a more correct, :sigh:PC:sigh: name? i not the AZTEC EMPIRE is like that because they encompasses more than their native people.

If i hear "PC" used derisively once more (except by Macintosh users of course ) I'm going to scream.


LOTM

[dennis580]

Custom Civs just are not very important to me; so this doesn't bother me at all. Thier is one feature that is far more important to me then any other feature in the game and that is the bargaining table.

[dainbramaged13]

i agree completely with serapis and steve clark.
what is the problem with editing txt files? its very easy if you know anything about computers. also serapis brought up a good point that you havent seen all the setup screens.

but it is rather interesting that firaxis hasn't showed up yet..

[Urban Ranger]

There are some people who have their heads buried up their arses.

Clearly you can play a customised civ in a standard game, as the screenshot shows.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Clearly you can play a customised civ in a standard game, as the screenshot shows.

i dont see anyone arguing that. the question is : did the custom civ replace a default civ or was it added to the list?

less insults in your posts would be something great....

[Urban Ranger]

As far as I can tell it's "neither." Sort of like what you can do in Civ 1.

BTW Markos how often do I hurl insults? Sometimes however incessant whinings just grind my nerves raw, driving even the most civilised person into a murderous rage.

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Colon
Grim, in that screenshot I see the option to choose 7 opponents, which means there will be 8 civs to play against in a game. That isn’t so dissimilar from civ2, except that the 8th civ were the barbarians. That also means you can play against 7 humans instead of 6 as is the case now.

IMHO that's a nice improvement, albeit a non-revolutionary one.

Yeah ok, 8 civs now.

The point is that this means that there is room for editing the remaining civs to your liking -no need for scroll bars, though I admit it would be nice. So I say the "greatest non-improvement" it is not.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Why?!? Just save a copy of the original rules.txt and create/download one that has all of your favorite civs in there. Folks have modified rules.txt all of the time in Civ2, it's not a big deal.

And it's not a big deal for Firaxis to add a pull down menu

Hey, Lord of the Mark, are you PC or something?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As far as I can tell it's "neither." Sort of like what you can do in Civ 1.

i fail to see the "third way"

custom civs either replace a default civ or is added to the list of default civs. what other possibility is there?

[Colon™]

Could anyone sum up the practical problems there were in CTP (and CTP2?) when you expanded the number of civs beyond 8 in a game? Didn’t your processor overheat or something like that?

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Colon
Could anyone sum up the practical problems there were in CTP (and CTP2?) when you expanded the number of civs beyond 8 in a game? Didn’t your processor overheat or something like that?

Yes indeed. In fact, the sample copy of CTP that was sent to Sid Meier as a gift had this disastrous effect on poor Sid's 386, scorching the silicon beyond repair. Beware!

[phildphild]

If the civ names are contained in a .txt file, then at least you could alter the names and replace the Civ names with your versions. On the other hand, if it's not in a .txt file. . .

[Grim Legacy]

Sorry doublepost...the post function is acting up...

[Gramphos]

It is possible that the screen change to a dropdownbox if you add more civs, or that an option: Other and then a dropdownbox is added.

We don't know anything, and regarding the screens that wouldn’t look good, they may have alternate screens for them too.

[General Maximus]

my concern is what color each civ is.

i always play the Romans, so i have never played against the Celts or the Russians, as the Romans. THAT SUX.

out of those 16 civs, how many colors are there?

if i choose the Romans in a MP game, will that mean another civ will be eliminated by default because of color?

[opaque]

I might be wrong here but surely if you alter the civs in the menu, it will cause problems with the special units. For example if you modified the Japanese to be the Celts, the Celts' special unit would be the Samurai. But that would mess the game up and it wouldn't make sense.

[ByzCat]

I'm sure you can take a normal unit, modify it, and assign it to the ex-Japanese as their Celtic special unit. Sure, it won't be special looking, but it is better than nothing. I've read somewhere else that you can use "classic" civ2 rules, which I presume means no unique units, civ bonuses, and maybe only 6 opponents. I'm also sure that Firaxis will release "generic" civ animations to supplement a custom civ. Have some patience, people, and wait until the game actually comes out to knock it this much. Most of the arguments I've seen are all based on screenshots and a vague sentence or two someone saw. And you can always return it, get your money back, and buy a new game if it is unbearable.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Colon
Could anyone sum up the practical problems there were in CTP (and CTP2?) when you expanded the number of civs beyond 8 in a game? Didn’t your processor overheat or something like that?

Shh. Don't mention those games in these hallowed halls. You have to remember that absolutely no improvements have been made to the genre since Civ 2 went gold. None. No. Some Firaxians even had to have medical treatment to remove all memory of SMAC too. That way they can herald this game as a miracle of modern technology that offers the most customisability, best graphics and undisputedly advanced gameplay in all areas.

No TBS game has ever worked out how to cope with more than 8 players or customisation inside the main screens. MOO2? SE4? Space games that can't possibly have anything to do with this conversation either. I'm imminently expecting the announcement of the revolutionary (but prudent) Colonisation II incorporating even more never-before-seen features like SVGA graphics (in limited screens only) and perhaps the addition of the Natives as a playable race (assuming the Portugese are removed).

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by General Maximus
my concern is what color each civ is.

It doesn't appear that a civ's color is a set thing, or that each of the 16 civs has their own color. I say this because SMAC didn't repeat colors with 14 different factions and I see little reason for Firaxis to repeat that Civ2 mistake. Also, in the Civs Included Apolyton Thread several civs repeat colors, which to me means that if only 8 colors are used, some civs have prefered colors, but not required colors.

[Brad]

Why is the fact that there are only 16 civ slots such a big deal. The name of a civ doesn't affect the gameplay at all, I couldn't care less if I am playing as the Aztecs or the Romans. anyway I would rather 16 good quality civs than 60 poor ones.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Brad
Why is the fact that there are only 16 civ slots such a big deal. The name of a civ doesn't affect the gameplay at all, I couldn't care less if I am playing as the Aztecs or the Romans. anyway I would rather 16 good quality civs than 60 poor ones.

If you have no interest in what your Civ is called, your leaders are called, your cities are called etc by default then sure, you are playing the expansionist/scientific civ with a tank and a European graphic set. Nothing else matters. Our point is that while Firaxis should not be expected to produce hundreds of civs to the professional quality of the current ones, it would not hurt them to make it convenient for mod makers to do so without overwriting standard ones. It doesn't require additional artwork, just a different approach to designing some of the support screens.