Turns of Democracy in Peril - Page 10

knowhow2 · November 16, 2001, 11:30

turn 2192 to darius

Darius · November 16, 2001, 20:28

John, that timetable sounds good, as I need to finish some probes and ships first. And I don't know what our upgrade costs are, but I don't have a lot of cash. I'm finding that I didn't expand enough early on, so my production, research and economy are all slow.

2193 to John.

johndmuller · November 17, 2001, 00:45

2193
Nothing exciting this year.

Darius, here are my costs to Upgrade a Trained Drop Infantry Shell (1-1-1) to:
a)-ECM Plasma Trance ec=40
b)-3A Plasma Trance ec=50
c)-Clean ECM Plasma ec=60
d)-Clean 3A Plasma ec=60

If you can do it cheaper, then I'll just send you ec's for whatever your costs are instead of upgrading it myself. I will be getting p-drones until it is yours, but I might be willing to spend a little extra to figure out exactly what we can and cannot do in one turn. At the cost of spending extra time with the DW redesigning the drop shell unit, I can always upgrade the whole class of units that way after all the rest of the move is done (assuming I don't have extraneous units I don't want ugraded), although I don't really want to have to keep redesigning the same unit over and over.

I suppose you'll be picking (d) since I'm buying, but feel free to go with (b) if support is not an issue, or some other design if you'd rather and I can afford it. Unless you tell me otherwise, I'm going to stop at the Monolith to upgrade using that extra turn. I can see the road - Thanks.

I'm planning on sending you a standard (speeder) Probe on the following turn if my delivery system works - unless you don't want it. Assuming that you do, tell me where you want it to end up and I'll turn it over at whichever base seems to waste the least movement.

knowhow2 · November 18, 2001, 20:06

turn 2193 to darius

I'm putting more effort into building My Airfleet.

Darius · November 19, 2001, 13:05

2194 to John.

John, I haven't prototyped any of those units yet, so I can't make a direct comparison. I can upgrade a standard 1-1-1 (not trained, not drop) to a trance plasma for 40 ec or to a AAA 3pulse for 80 ec.

Actually, I think I can pull this off on my own now, I just need to move my units into place at Craftsman's Keep. So if you have other plans you want to pursue, go ahead.

Both of you - I will need all of your techs within the next few turns, so I can go steal all of the Hive's.

johndmuller · November 20, 2001, 00:29

2194

Well it's new tech time again.

Knowhow2, it looks like you will finish Superconductor a little before I finish PreSentient. Assuming that we want Fusion Power, I see two possibilities (1) You give me Superconductor when you get it and research something else, assuming that I will be able to research the Fusion tech; and (2) You research PreSentient Algorithms {or one of the techs I already have that you don't (Intel Integrity, CyberEthics, Advanced Subatomic or Doc:Initiative)}, then when I get Presentient, I give it to you and you switch to Fusion; if you aren't offered Fusion to research, you research one of the other techs on that list, I then give it to you and we see if you can research Fusion at that point (repeating as necessary until we get it). Under this (2) scenario, you don't offer me Superconductor right away.

In order to minimize research costs, I would recommend (2): You researching Presentient and switching to Fusion after I give Presentient to you. I will research Silksteel until Darius gives it to me to likewise save a little on the tech costs (and keep our options open for me to research Fusion if you have trouble going that way).

As usual, if you want to go a different way, feel free.

Darius, if you are trying to keep up with all the techs, the next few turns will be active as we will all be getting new ones - you should confirm your desire to have them all (bearing in mind that in only a few turns you will be finishing your research too).

As far as the next tech targets, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but currently favor getting Planetary Economics (requiring Progenitor Psych & Adaptive Economics) and Centauri Meditation (requiring Centauri Empathy). Any other (or better) ideas?.

Darius, re the unit(s) you may or may not want from me: As you can see, I moved the drop shell unit over to the Monolith; just let me know what you want to do (if you say you want it in some form or other, I'll probably move it over to Free Drone Central from where it can reach nearly all of your bases; if you don't I'll probably move it to Miners Freehold from where I can drop it back to my territory). Next turn I will probably deliver a standard probe over there, although if you wanted it, I could deliver (and hopefully be able to turn over to you right away) a regular synthmetal garrison instead (please specify which of the three bases near the monolith you would want it in). As I (might have) said before, I am refining my techniques here, so don't hold me to those high Drone efficiency standards - this goes under my R&D budget.

knowhow2 · November 20, 2001, 03:19

turn 2194 to darius

choice 2 sounds great. after fusion I vote for C empathy so that green will be avaible. as soon as I get some seaunits underway I can clean out cyborgs in a few turns.

Darius · November 20, 2001, 13:04

2195 to John.

knowhow2, as my turn was closing, I saw at least two enemy jets in your territory. One of the killed one of your formers.

John, my former at Shanghai needs new orders.

My fleet should be ready to depart from Craftman's Keep in three turns. After one turn en route, it will arrive at Sea Collective and the fun will begin. John, if you wish to participate by contributing a unit or two, that would be cool. I think the most useful configuration at this point woud be a AAA best armor garrison to hold the base after I capture it. Drop ability is not necessary, as I cannot drop into sea bases. (Might be useful later though, in the land invasion phase.) Another probe would be handy, too. Whatever you bring to Craftsman's Keep in the next three turns, I'll bring them along.

Hey, here's as idea.

We could all slow our research (allocate 0% to labs) so as not to discover any new techs until after I clean out the Hive. We could then later switch to new techs without penalty, and discover a whole new crop of techs that the Hive does not have on the next turn. What do you think?

johndmuller · November 20, 2001, 15:05

Darius,

Your

may or may not have possibilities; mainly, I would need to know what techs the Hive has that we don't, perhaps you could let me know that before I take my turn (in case you didn't know, reopening an already played turn doesn't trigger any future cheating warnings unless you save and we play from that reopened turn). Your proposal suggests that the Hive already has the techs, but you didn't actually spell that out.

I see a couple of possible downsides to the plan. First, it is presumably too late for knowhow2 to implement your idea since I think his next tech comes in this year so Superconductor will be gotten before he could stop it. My tech is scheduled a year later, it is to be Presentient Algs and I could theoretically follow that plan if the Hive already has that tech, although I don't know whether I would get substantially more Econ out of it given the way the game penalizes those radical shifts in allocation (that's the other potential drawback) - I'll check it out though and see if it is worth it - I might be able to put some psych to good use, I was thinking that I could afford to switch to demo now that I have mostly clean units (perhaps the psych would give me one fewer drone to make up for losing those 10 free mins which are nice when you need a rec comm right away as I do currently). If the Hive doesn't have Presentient, it doesn't hurt for me to get it and even if they do, we would be forgoing 4 or more turns of researching which whould get us well on the way to another tech (which the Hive could have available to be stolen by then if they've already got what we are workinig on). If you can tell me what additional techs they have and what they might get from the other AI's and what they are all working on, that would be most helpful.
Thanks,
John

Darius · November 20, 2001, 15:43

John, those are good points. (I wish I had thought of this sooner.) I will put together a list of the techs which each of us and the Hive have, but I will not be able to do it until this evening, probably after the kids go to bed.

johndmuller · November 20, 2001, 18:47

Darius: Its OK with me to wait til you check it out; thinking about it, I recall that the University(I think it was them) was starting on the Hunter-Seeker some time ago, so they at least have Polysentient. I most likely won't get to the turn until sometime tomorrow in this case as I am going to NY overnight and unless I am uncharacteristically early getting ready (or unless your kids go to bed without their supper) I probably won't be able to get to the turn before we leave. I may also be a bit slower than usual through the weekend.

Please keep the duplication to my hotmail account going a while longer as I sometimes have flakier msn mail up there for some reason, but after the holiday we can probably go back to just one if it is easier for you. By the way, if I forget again to tell you where to move the former, just move it to the other side of Shanghai - two up along the coast (currently forested).

Darius · November 20, 2001, 22:21

The Hive has the following techs that we currently lack:
1. Superconductor (knowhow2 will discover upon opening this turn)
2. Presentient Algorithms (johndmuller will discover next turn)
3. Superstring Theory
They will complete Fusion Power in 2 turns.

(I've already subtracted one from all of the above years to reflect the new year when John plays his turn.)

I agree that it's too late for knowhow2 to implement my idea. But look what happens to John, currently researching at ten turns per tech: doing nothing, you will get Superconductor next year, then maybe Fusion in eleven years. But if you slow your research, then in five turns I will steal Superconductor AND Fusion and give them to you, then you turn your research back on and in the sixth year you will discover a third tech. You end up with three techs in 6 years, rather than 2 techs in 11 years. Unless I'm missing something,

that sounds like a good deal. Let me know what I'm doing wrong.

(By the way, the University has the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.)

Darius · November 21, 2001, 08:35

OK, I know what I was doing wrong. Let me try this again.

Do nothing: Discover Presentient next turn, steal Fusion and Superstring in 5 years, discover x in about 11 years. 4 techs in 11 years.

Slow your research: Steal Presentient & Superstring & Fusion in 5 years, discover x in 6 years. 4 techs in 6 years. We still come out ahead.

johndmuller · November 22, 2001, 01:48

2195

Sorry it took me so long, between Thanksgiving travel and rearranging my research/economy, it took quite a while.

Well, I hadn't read Darius' latest post before my move, and being convinced that it was a good idea, I slowed my research to 10% (econ is better at 80-10-10 than at 90-10-0).

It will still give me a tech in just a few years, so I will have to revisit it anyway, perhaps to rethink altogether if Darius' new version seems to make more sense. Meanwhile, I'm going down the official Democracy road at last, so my economy will have to be a little different at least, but I may be able to pop-boom a little this way.

Darius, I've got a probe and the drop shell scheduled to arrive at Craftsman Keep next turn; I'll convert and turn them over to you as soon as I can (presumably by the following turn at latest). Interestingly, don't seem to get the p-drones when in one of your bases.

knowhow2 · November 22, 2001, 04:17

turn 2195 to darius

supercon offered to you both. Since darius is planning to steal Hive tech I guess we don't need to research Fusion ourselves?
I went C Empathy so that we eventually gets Green.

Darius · November 22, 2001, 11:34

2196 to John. The liberation of the Hive base will commence next turn or the turn after.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

johndmuller · November 23, 2001, 03:31

2196

I cut off my research so as not to finish Presentient - waiting for Robin Hood Darius to liberate those techs from the Hive. Are you really going to get 3? I thought you were worried that the sea base already had the interlocks. Well as long as you get Presentient, it will give me a free tech - if you keep me informed as to what the AI has, I can presumably research something that won't cause unwanted stealing complications. Meanwhile, I'm going to get spoiled with all the income from 90% econ.

I delivered a Drop 3A Plasma Guard (although it changed the name) to Craftsman Keep, a probe is almost there (next turn).

knowhow2 · November 23, 2001, 06:14

turn 2196 to darius

I'm being harassed by Hive Jets. Losing formers and crawlers in great numbers. meanwhile my own airfleet is blowing the Cyborgs away base by base. I'm soon up to a 25 plane airfleet. I'm tempted to go Power. But we need to coordinate our battleplans. Just empty enemy bases without taking them doesn't seem so effecient.

Darius · November 23, 2001, 11:42

Quote:

Are you really going to get 3? I thought you were worried that the sea base already had the interlocks.

I have two destroyer probes and three land probes mustering with the fleet at Craftsman Keep, with more arriving next turn. As long as I don't have trouble probing with land probes, I intend to liberate the three three techs that the Hive has, plus their world map. If Sea Collective is equipped with interlocks, I will simply capture that base and use it to stage probe raids on Unity Lair on the next turn. Thanks for the drop garrison and the probe.

By the way, John, is that a drop transport

unit in my territory?

Quote:

Just empty enemy bases without taking them doesn't seem so effecient.

I agree. I will start to send some ships over that way as soon as I can. Then I can capture the bases as you empty them out.

2197 to John.

johndmuller · November 24, 2001, 01:40

2197

Darius, I turned over the probe unit at Craftsman Keep; good luck on the expedition. Yes, that is a Drop Transport, I used it to bring over the probe; it's sort of useful - some things are too expensive to build drop shell versions of and then upgrade, and it is easier for moving already built units - but the rover base is a waste - it only gets 1 turn anyway; I'm going to experiment with an infantry version

next. I was hoping that a probe would be able to get a move after the drop that way, but apparently only non-probe units get to do that.

I'm holding off on techs until the dust settles on the Hive tech raid, although I think I would like SilkSteel when it arrives so as to be able to build better garrisons as soon as possible. So, Knowhow2, just offer me the maps until further notice.

Viz-a-viz the Consciousness, I have ideas about their Northern bases such as Pi Complex, which is more or less within my range. Once I had a foothold there, I could supply garrison units at some of their other bases as knowhow2 conquers them - I do not as yet have any navy to speak of, so I would be pretty limited as far as helping with their sea bases - I suppose I could make drop amphib units, but they might be expensive and would need support too. Knowhow2, if you want to send some of that Yang-sized airforce up to Cote d'Or and/or 3rd World Trading Co. I could focus more on the necessary ground units to take/occupy the land part of Cyborg territory while you took care of the northern Cyborgs defenders.

Knowhow2, wouldn't a few SAM choppers help your defense against the air raids? Where are you being attacted and do you know from where the attackers are coming?

I could use infiltration data about Pi Complex and Iota Station and as much of that whole area as you all can see through the base windows or whatever sources, particularly the road leading west from Pi Complex to that sensor as I would likely start along there. If it is wide open, I could drop some units there and start a buildup, or at least get my own infiltration.

knowhow2 · November 24, 2001, 03:53

turn 2197 to darius

I think I need all avaible technology to build more flexible troops (i totally forgot that I had choopers

) trained, police, amphi - I need them all.

Pi complex is at the moment out of range but once I captured Alpha Prime (mext turn if all goes well) with me single Drop rover I will be able to use Alpha Prime base as a landing spot.

UoP have Fusion AAA troops (my missile jets have no chance against them one-on-one).

There are those seabases just south of Alpha Prime that are bugging me. If I just have amphib ......

Darius · November 24, 2001, 17:35

Do you guys know exactly how the security interlocks work? I have been assuming that after you probe an AI base, it would have interlocks starting on the next turn. Hence my previous comments. But something I read in Vel's guide last night suggested (but did not come out and say) that the interlock might be put up immediately, within the same turn. I can't remember ever trying multiple probes at the same base within the same turn, so I don't know for sure. Do either of you know?

John, I'vd copied my map of Cyborg territory, attached below. (You can see this anyway, no?) In addition to the map, I have the following intelligence on the two bases you requested.

Pi Complex
Population 6
Producing Maritime Control Center, to complete in 19 turns
Chaos Infantry 8-1-1 Disciplined (+)
Missile Artillery (6)-1-1 Disciplined (+)

Iota Station
Population 3 (Currently running at -1 nutrient)
Producing Drop Chaos Squad Mk3, to complete in 5 turns
AAA Chaos infantry 8-<3>-1 Disciplined (+)
Trained 3-Pulse Garrison 1-3p-1 Hardened (+)
Transport Foil

Sorry about the reload. While capturing the screen for the attached file, my display got messed up and I had to reload.

I got Silksteel and offered it to both of you. I can't remember what we were supposed to choose next. I picked Applied Relativity, because I love the Suppercollider. Let me know if you have a better plan.

Operation "Robin Hood" has commenced. Two transports are enroute, with destroyer escort and under air cover, and should arrive at Sea Collective next turn.

2198 to John.

johndmuller · November 25, 2001, 04:01

2198

Regarding the interlocks, I think I read a recent thread that described the interlocks pretty well. I don't know if it was in the thread or not, but I think that the interlocks are activated after the first time anyone steals tech from the particular base. The interlocks don't make it impossible to steal tech, they just lower the odds from very likely to midling, so you should save your best probes for then, using the lesser morale ones for the first time(s). BTW, we could harden each others bases that way if we wanted to spend the time and make sure that we had techs to steal in the one faction and wanted the techs in the other faction (like knowhow2 right does now - feel free to steal the techs from me at my southern or western bases before you accept the trade offers).

I can see the map pretty much as much as you can, except I can't see into the bases to see what troops are there, etc., nor can I see the base map where one could see 3rd (or 4th) party units if they were there - just a little bit of extra intel; none of us can see the indigenous troops outside the bases unless we have units in the neighborhood. Sorry for the tampering warning from my turn - I had to reboot - system resources bottomed out and I couldn't see most of the graphics, even after closing everything else - don't know whether it was just leaving the computer on too long without rebooting or that dreaded bitmap file; I usually run the game on NT, should have taken the resource degradation problem on regular Windows more seriously when I saw it was a bit pokey. Knowhow2 is going to think we are both cheating

.

Darius, if you offered SilkSteel to me, it must have been before your crash as I didn't get the offer; please reoffer it. I don't have a tech chart with me, but one thing we need to think about is getting the Orbital Defense Pods as quickly as possible especially after PBs are available as our friends will no doubt be building and using the PBs. That suggests we go after all the prereqs of ODPs.

Darius · November 25, 2001, 13:01

You're right; I think I forgot to offer Silksteel when I replayed the turn.

Regarding the interlocks - RATS! I may have to recall the fleet for a couple of turns to ready more probes. I'll scope it out when I get the next turn.

knowhow2 · November 25, 2001, 17:52

turn 2198 to darius

My Friends, I have captured Alpha Prime! Lets hope that I can hold on to it. Any Assistence will help!

Also I seem to have captured an AA and cashing it I got Retroviral Engineering which I offered to you, darius but not you John (since you don't want tech from me for now), let me know if you want it.

I have disclose some of the unknown UoP territory. I 'm certain that the Hive jets is coming from that direction but I can't attack since their fusion AAA sentinels are hopelessly overpowering against me Missile Needles. My Airfleet is also reduced by Hive tacticals so the war is not going well at the moment.

ODs are important but I think it would be more sufficient to concentrate on attacking now with full power so that Hive don't reach Orbital (rather hopeless I know....)

Darius · November 25, 2001, 21:49

I have captured Sea Collective, as well as Fusion Power, Superstring Theory, Pre-Sentient Algorithms, AND the Hive world map! I have offered all of these techs and the map to you both. (John, I did not offer you Superconductor.)

Knowhow2, for what it is worth, I have a 4-1-4 foil and two 6-1-1 rovers on the way to Alpha Prime. Be aware that there is a hostile probe team north of Alpha Prime. Better get one of those jets out there.

2199 to John.

johndmuller · November 26, 2001, 19:35

Just to let you know, I won't be able to get to the turn until tomorrow (Tuesday), probably in the morning (your afternoon knowhow2); sorry fo the delay.

Congrats on the conquests.

johndmuller · November 27, 2001, 16:22

2199

Sorry it took so long; the switch to Fusion required a lot of MM, but now I'm cool with all that new tech. I am now researching Biomachinery (mostly due to a dyslexic misclick) after which (next turn or the one after) I will research something more useful.

Darius, I guess everything worked out very well probe-wise; what happened?

Knowhow2, after a few turns prototyping SilkSteel and Chaos, I should be ready to launch a minimal invasion of Pi Complex - estimated 4 or 5 years. Once I have that beachhead, I can funnel troops through there to your later conquests. To get started, I could use your help in recon and taking out any random units lurking in the bush. Given that they don't have any defense in the base to speak of (especially if the units there are not fusion, it might be best if you don't attack them there as it will only stimulate them building AAA units. Perhaps a cleanout just before my attack if their turn is before yours (i.e. between our turns) so that they don't have time to rebuild before my turn comes around - Does someone know whether the Borgs come before or after knowhow2 in the turn order?

knowhow2 · November 27, 2001, 18:30

turn 2199 to darius

a rise of a new centuary

john, I just sit tight and wait.

Darius · November 28, 2001, 07:40

Yes, the probe raids were a complete success. I'll give you a rundown later. Right now I have to get ready for work.

I seized another Hive base which happened to be unoccupied.

2200 to John.