Turns of Democracy in Peril - Page 13

johndmuller · January 13, 2002, 21:35

2116.

Well, I probed back Banana Republic, but if Yang keeps hitting it, it will disappear. He is playing rough!

Before I mind-controlled BP, I stole ProgenPsyche from Yang (at the cost of a lost probe); too bad I didn't get Applied Relativity, but at least I didn't waste the opportunity by getting Superconductor either (or so I thouight at the time). When I went to offer it you you, Knowhow2, I discovered that you already had it and that I had lost my probe for nothing - please try to keep up with what you are getting from the Datalinks, if that is where it came from - to give us a chance to get them too if we want them.

Knowhow2, what are you plans for Phi Lumiere - are you looting it and starving it out? I realize it might be hard to defend, but don't we want the datalinks?

Darius, it would be nice to get OrbitalDefensePods (SelfAwareMachines) to fend off the PBs that will be coming soon, unless you like getting your best bases picked off, which I doubt. To get to that, we first need MonopoleMagnets, NanoMiniaturization, and IndustrialNano (they are all in sequence, but we can always double-team them). Alternatively, CentauriMeditation (for CentauriPreserves and IODs) would be another worthy goal IMhO, and could be followed by CentauriGenetics (for Locusts). HybridForests (PlanetaryEcon) for which we first need AdaptiveEcon might also be helpful, although they are expensive to build. As always, NoneOfTheAbove is an additional choice.

Darius, I also offered the ProgenPsyche to you; you probably shouldn't take it until after you have started you next tech - if you want to go the AdaptiveEcon route toward HFs, you can start researching Progen Psyche yourself and then switch to AdaptiveEcon. Strategically speaking, although not much fun, it could be for the best for us to keep you at the top of the Tech Rankings, so that Knowhow2 and I, who have much the better research rates, don't get hit with the TechLeader penalty on the Tech Cost. Oh yeah, and the PhotonWave would be nice too (perhaps it can resist a missile if otherwise enhanced with Aerospace Cplx, AAA, etc). I guess you might as well give me the Applied Relativity so I could research the Photon if I want.

I took a pot shot at the nearest of Santi's bases Ft Survivalist, and cleared it out, but when I went to drop my probed Yang drop infantry into it to remove the base and get rid of the Uggh Green unit, I discovered that I wasn't allowed to do a drop with it (although I could seemingly have taken a regular move, I suppose due to Yang having already done a drop with it this turn - do we actually know the true turn sequence for all the factions anyone?).

knowhow2 · January 14, 2002, 09:43

2216 to darius

I just got the message- global warming!!! sealevel rising!

also got my first 3 fungus-pops. tough crowd.

I don't have more tech than those I offered to you both.

phi lum- I thought I starv it down a bit (if I put military in there yang missile them to death) to manageable size.

forgot to pronounce vendetta on you this turn darius.

Darius · January 14, 2002, 20:31

I decided to go with Monopole Magnets.

2217 to John.

Darius · January 14, 2002, 21:49

Warning Warning Warning
Dumb question coming up!

Those of you with weak constitutions, please avert your eyes.

OK, here it comes:

There's a TechLeader penalty for tech cost?
How does that work?
What if all three of us had the same techs?
Why would it be less fun if I were tech leader?
Why is the sky blue?

OK, that was more than one.

johndmuller · January 15, 2002, 02:53

2117.

Banana Republic III is toast, but the South Will Rise Again!! (Just not right away.)

I got a >pop< too (only one fortunately), and batch of 7 MWs just outside of M's Onshore Bank. Two volleys of Artillery and a chopper and an infantry shell were all the offense I could get over there and I only got 1 MW with the chopper (5 heavily wounded MWs at least). I guess I'll survive them, but I'll probably be on defense and get no $$$ for my troubles. Hey Guv - what's with all that pollution over there - is that supposed to be a good example, or what.

Darius, Congrats on being back on the Yang mainland; good luck

johndmuller · January 16, 2002, 12:25

Darius, I think that the leader and probably the last-place factions in various areas, like tech, sometimes get handicap adjustments. I think I got this notion about tech costs about the same time we were starting up this game, perhaps from a thread started by cbn (I tried to search for it, but no joy - it looked like only the newest threads were being searched). In this game, at one point your tech cost were higher than mine or TMS's, despite having the same techs; at the time, I think I wondered if it were a double dip on your factional research penalty, another possible adjustment mechanism. I have noted stuff that seems to support this theory, but its hard to know all the relevant information. So, I don't know any of this for sure, but various handicapping adjustments are said to be scattered around and I have no trouble believing in this one albeit based on very imperfect data.

As to what if we are tied - in a game where we play 2 factions each, my team is in the tech lead and when things are exactly equal between my factions, the one who is first in the turn order, Yang, gets the who's who listing instead of Zak, who does most of the discovering. At present, the Hive's tech cost is substantially higher than the University's, but that is a least partly due to Yang having just experienced one of his rare breakthroughs; when Zak next changes over, the numbers may be more revealing.

If this theory about tech leader penalties is true, it would be less fun for you if you were the tech leader because it would slow your research down even more than usual and you would miss out on some of the fun of discovering and starting out new techs, while knowhow2 and I would get more of that fun than we otherwise deserved. I think I made that strategy harder to follow by taking the Superconductor from knowhow2 last turn; since I am the 1st of us in turn order, ties should stick me with the tech lead, although if it only recalculates at the beginning of a MY, then if you or knowhow2 had just acquired a tech which I had not yet received . . .

The sky is blue . . . . . Because.

johndmuller · January 16, 2002, 14:16

Posting turn 2117 here as there seems to be an unknown holdup and as I seem to be having trouble with hotmail - perhaps knowhow2 is as well.

knowhow2 · January 16, 2002, 19:18

turn 2217 to Darius

..... busy busy... sorry

Darius · January 17, 2002, 21:15

I tried to post here a while ago when I sent the turn, but it didn't work.

If you guys want to make me the tech leader, that's fine with me. Actually, that would make it easier for me, to not have to think about which techs to accept or not accept from you.

Nothing else to report. 2218 to John.

johndmuller · January 18, 2002, 02:54

2118.

Nothing special. Santi built a sea base near me thats gotta go before it is Royal Yang Air Force Central. Yang took out an old sentry transport of mine, but I probed his ship away making us kind of even.

Darius, there's a Yang transport near you at (26,44) near Manufacturing Warrens.

Knowhow2, I'm trying to sneak a probeship in to infiltrate Zak down off your SE shore; if you can see it in the fungus, I'd appreciate some cover and suggestions as to which base to try.

knowhow2 · January 18, 2002, 16:14

turn 2118 to darius

...sorry john, I lost two needles trying to kill off that thing..... but I failed

A volcano exploded up nearby...... talk about **** happening

Darius · January 18, 2002, 23:04

I took another Hive base, and plunked down 200 ec to rush a probe. But then they missiled all of my units and dropped into the base.

2219 to John.

johndmuller · January 19, 2002, 05:12

2119.

I've been having a little target practice across the straits with Santi, but I have to actually go there to get rid of her bases. I'm not really ready to do that yet; maybe I'll just send over suicide cheap drop units after I kill all the defenders. I think I'm going to close and/or take over her impinging "Fleet Base" in my territorial waters next turn, unless she somehow ships a lot of force into it in the meantime.

Darius, tough luck with Yang; getting and keeping a foothold over there is going to be difficult. You might be able to use up his missile supply with cheap cannon fodder of some kind; if there are enough men in the base, he will end up eliminating it if he kills them all and then drops into it; that wouldn't be all bad for us. Also, the missiles are reasonably expensive, even for you and Yang, so he can't make more than 5 or 10 a turn, can he?

Knowhow2, My SpyBoat didn't get attacked by that IoD right next to it, so it is now at (83,73), nearer to Library of Planet and Nadazjda Hope - are either probe free - is fungus still in 2 of the 3 harbor tiles?

I guess someone was lucky not to get hit by a disaster last turn; are you guys running a lot of ED? My clean mineral limit is around 35; its not too confining, but if I am able to grow some more, I would like to produce some more mins. Good of you to do the Centauri Meditation, knowhow2. I haven't decided what I will do next turn; do we have an urgent requirement or other preferences?

knowhow2 · January 19, 2002, 15:36

turn 2119

I guess I have too much ecodamage... but then again those are pretty much my first......

that volcano... is nice place to make a energy park...

building up my copter-fleet

Darius · January 19, 2002, 16:37

I have some significant ED at a couple of bases. I'll be putting up treefarms there after the current builds are done. Meanwhile, I think I just got a pop.

I think I've changed my mind about giving away that former Cyborg base. It makes a cool place to snipe at the Hive (got 2 formers and an outdoor unit this turn), perhaps distracting them from their eastern front, where I will concentrate my efforts. Besides, my chopper there is within range of the base THE HIVE, where they have a PB and 2-3 missiles. Just waiting to complete a prototype fusion chopper so I can upgrade.

2220 to John.

Googlie · January 20, 2002, 11:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Darius
There's a TechLeader penalty for tech cost?
How does that work?

The tech formula (actually the formula for research cost) is:

Research cost = {11 + (DIFF x 4) + [(YOURTECHS x 6)/5] - (TURNS/8) - (MOSTTECHS/5)} x YOURTECHS x WORLDSIZE

where:

DIFF = difficulty level (citizen = 0 to transcend = 5)
YOURTECHS = # techs you have already discovered
MOSTTECHS = the greates # techs discovered by any one player
WORLDSIZE = the usual 0.6 for a tiny worls up to 1.6 for a huge one

As DIFF, MOSTTECHS and WORLDSIZE are the same for everybody, the most important differential thus is YOURTECHS - the more you have, the higher the cost.

Players with an equal # techs would have the same cost

# turns to go till next tech would obviously then depend on your research Social Modifier, efficiency, etc., impacting on lab points accruing per turn, which divided into research cost, voila, gives you # turns till next tech

G.

G.

Darius · January 20, 2002, 12:55

Thanks, G. That agrees with my basic understanding that the more techs you have, the more the next one will cost, and there is not a penalty applied just to the one player with the most techs.

johndmuller · January 20, 2002, 18:50

2220.

Finished Advanced Spaceflight. Now researching Adaptive Economics, due in '26 (it only offered me that and the techs that you two are researching). I am offering the Adv. S'Flight to each of you as it yields Plasma Shard (13) weapons and Orbital Power stations, both of which I would assume you all want. Knowhow2, Once again it turns out that you have it already, what's going on? Hopefully, it just means that my discovering it was the trigger that gave it to you, but if you already had it and didn't notice, it could cost us a whole new tech. We should all three of us be checking each turn to see if you have gotten anything from the datalinks, especially when one of us is about to discover something. To the extent that we have infiltration, we can also see if a datalinks tech would be imminent and possibly take that into account. BTW, at the moment, I don't believe that I want Homo Superior, but if you get something interesting, I would appreciate learning of it in case I don't notice.

We destroyed the Spartan's 'Fleet Base' (3 whole energy credits

!)

Knowhow2, what are your plans for that at sea Colony Pod at (65,45)? If you are going to establish a colony nearby, we should talk about exactly where so we don't get in each other's way.

Knowhow2, my (University-bound) ProbeShip is now at (85,75); as it is only one turn from its goal, I would appreciate it if you parked an interceptor over it if you could to give it a chance to survive. If you need another excuse, there is a big Fungal Tower sucker right down below at (85,77) that would be worth a good sum of EC if taken out because it's DemonBoil/Elite. Of course, because it's DemonBoil/Elite, it's probably not worth the risk of taking it out unless you've got a ship to bombard it first or an aircraft that is elite or has empath (or unless you've got that SP).

Darius/Googlie, that's quite an interesting formula; I'll have to look at it more closely. Does this formula come from the game's datalinks or one of those guidebooks? It certainly looks as if there is nothing to distinguish two players who have the same # techs and who switch techs at the same time (effect of the TURNS variable, assuming that it means the # of turns played so far or something equivalent). Even with that 'TURNS' effect, which looks to be small and possibly lost in integerizing/rounding most of the time, it seems to leave unexplained some seemingly quite noticable discrepancies I think I've seen

. Maybe I'll start a thread about it and see if anyone has any additional insight; maybe there are some global handicapping routines that modify things like this?

johndmuller · January 22, 2002, 01:54

knowhow2 · January 22, 2002, 05:12

turn 2220 to darius

john, couldn't find your probe....

I usually offer all techs at the end of each my turn and so far I haven't kept anything you didn't know that I had.

All my aircraft will be upgraded into shard weapon shortly.

the colony pod is not going to be build next to any of you.

Darius · January 23, 2002, 10:45

Turn to John last night. Nothing to report.

John, your MSN address has been undeliverable every time for the last few days. You should demand your money back from those boneheads.

johndmuller · January 23, 2002, 16:40

2221.

Darius please use your former at (37,11) to join in the land raising party there. Hopefully it will jostle up the borehole tile (although I don't think it will); in any event, raising that tile should keep at least a 3x3 square of tiles above water, even if the borehole gets 'washed'. As for the one at (43,25), when it is finished please move it to (42,22) for another borehole.

Aaaggghhhh! RZ-113Q Hunter-Seeker Algorithm 12342424AQ Q34FIRAXIS2 111-QZAAWXX Aaaggghhhh!

So much for infiltrating the University; I seem to recall that Darius said something about that many turns ago. Knowhow2, you wouldn't have seen my probe unless you tried to move into that tile, but if you did try to see it in there, something is funny with the numbering system or some such, because it was there, until Aaaggghhhh!

Nothing special going on; I'm trying to deal with the floods and various misc stuff like upgrading some aircraft to

hard and getting a bit of a navy together so I can visit Santi without having to 'drop' in.

Darius, if you want some extra people, I can give you drop colony pods from time to time which you could use to flesh out some of your smaller bases - the cloning vats will replace them right away - I'm mostly maxed out 'til hab domes or ascetic virtues (is there another one?) and I can't keep up with more than a few new ones at a time on account of terraforming and rushed facilities and the rest of the stuff that goes with new colonies. That goes for you too knowhow2, although you seem to have pop-boomed more of yours already.

knowhow2 · January 23, 2002, 18:40

turn 2221 to darius

forgot about the rising sea..... haven't build any pressure dome.. lately..... ops!

Darius · January 24, 2002, 22:00

Sorry about the delay in getting to my turn, because when I opened it just now, I found that knowhow2 had sent me the wrong turn. I have requested a resend.

Quote:

Darius, if you want some extra people, I can give you drop colony pods from time to time

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. You bring up a good point. Earier in the game I was setting up for a pop boom, then when the Hive started harrassing me I changed over to a military focus. Now I'm struggling because I didn't expand and grow enough. Partly that's because there is not much useful land left on this continent (which is another reason I want to invade the Hive continent). But I'm considering a pause to execute a pop boom for a few turns. I'll check out the situation when I get the turn.

John, sorry about your running into the HSA with your probe. If I'd been paying more attention, I could have warned you. But then again, I usually fall into that trap myself in my own games.

knowhow2 · January 25, 2002, 21:09

resent ..... the same turn I think.... when I start it up it saids Foreman Darius... so has to be the right one....or?

Darius · January 26, 2002, 11:30

Yup, the second one was the right one. (Also the third one

) Thanks.

I couldn't post here after my turn last night because I couldn't get in.

I had to replay my entire turn last night due to a scramble crash after I was done and the AI was playing, even though I had turned off my virus program before playing. Yang attacked a colony pod which was enroute to its destination, and my nearby interceptor scrambled, causing the crash. When I replayed, I kept the CP home so as not to invite a similar outcome.

I'm adopting a more balanced approach to this game, slowing down my military builds in favor of more infrastructure and working toward a pop boom. I'm very anxious to give Yang a good pounding

but I think this will pay off in the end.

Turn to John last night.

johndmuller · January 26, 2002, 14:03

2222 to knowhow2.

Nothing much; I picked off a Yang interceptor with one of mine (just barely, despite morale advantage - need to shell out to upgrade and/or improve roads for SAM rovers to get around); Santi foolishly parked her only missile in her little base across from 3rd World where my Air Force gets its target practice, so I got rid of that too. Still, Yang probably has a dozen or two by now.

Darius please use your former on Key Morgan (Island) to go to (37,11) to join in the land raising party there; I'm pretty sure those coordinates are right, but in any event it is the tile in the middle of that island with the sensor array and two other valiant Dutch formers trying to plug the dykes. Hopefully it will jostle up the borehole tile (although I don't think it will); in any event, raising that tile should keep at least a 3x3 square of tiles above water, even if the borehole gets 'washed'. As for the former at (43,25), as it is now finished please move it to (42,22) for another borehole

Darius · January 28, 2002, 12:04

Quote:

Darius please use your former on Key Morgan (Island) to go to (37,11) to join in the land raising party there

I tried. It won't let me. The game considers that to be a hostile act against you

and says I can't do it unless I explicitly declare vendetta first. So I moved the former one square away, hoping it would let me do it outside your base radius (although I don't have much hope of it working).

On the other hand, I could declare vendetta on you and issue the order to the former, then try to go back to a pact. Does anyone know if the former would then continue raising land?

johndmuller · January 28, 2002, 13:34

Darius, if it doesn't/didn't let you help me raise it, I suppose it isn't worth it to lose a turn or two's trade just for that, so I guess you might as well do something else - go SW to the lower left of the fungus area ?(35,11)? and make another Borehole (future sea base next door); I can raise the sensor plot myself, albeit slower.

As for the "quality" of the MSN email system, apparently they suck. What p****s me off more is that I seem to be getting worse service from the MSN email "service" that I'm paying for than than the free MSN (Hotmail) service.

Knowhow2, are you getting my emails in a reasonable time when I send them with MSN? I can send them from my Hotmail account instead if it makes a significant difference; I think I've sent them both ways on occasion, so maybe you've already had a test case.

knowhow2 · January 28, 2002, 14:24

turn to darius

captured Buran Prospect from UoP and it contained HSA!!! So no more probing from Hive or anybody else and also UoP is probeable now

(come to think it I don't even have to rush a probe) assuming Hive won't missile the base to death that is.

nothing much.... remember that sealevel is rising (vote for sealevel drop?)