English or British?

[Dauphin]

Any self respecting Welshman would call Wales a country and is as much a country as any other country in the world

Call it a country if you want but it has never been fully self governing, ever. The region was not a united body (it was made up of several tribes that spoke different languages) until after the English subjucated it and the King made his son the figurehead of the entire region. Only in later times did the idea of Welsh "nationalism" come into the public imagination.

[Alinestra Covelia]

If I remember correctly, the country that built the British Empire was still known as "England" until roundabout the time of Dickens. I don't know why this should be the case, but I presume that it was easier to conquer America, Canada, Australia, and bits of India and China than it was to conquer a nation of red-haired, claymore-wielding, caber-tossing, mad William Wallace-descendant Scotsmen.

This argument has its merits. Even the Romans knew better than to try their luck against the psychotic kilt-wearers north of the wall.

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Ireland is gonna be My ISLAND! ! !

ITs MY ISLAND! ! !

[red_jon]

I e-mailed firaxis on the issue, but they haven't got back to me.

I say either have Lizzie as the English Queen or Churchill as the British leader.

Oh, and I find Welsh national pride extremely funny

Why are the Scottish and Welsh allowed to be nationalist but not the English?

[Lenius]

Why are the Scottish and Welsh allowed to be nationalist but not the English?

Because when the English are nationalistic they tend to subjacate and enslave half the world.
Ethier that or they take a trip abroad get drunk, watch fottie then beat up the locals.

Call it a country if you want but it has never been fully self governing, ever. The region was not a united body (it was made up of several tribes that spoke different languages) until after the English subjucated it and the King made his son the figurehead of the entire region. Only in later times did the idea of Welsh "nationalism" come into the public imagination.

Yeah, if you believe English Propaganda, Wales was first united before England even existed. Sure the Welsh tribes didn't always get on and liked to kick eachother around a bit now and then but thats just the Celtic Curse. Wales was united many times under Llewellyn ap Gruffydd and Owain Glyndwr for instance. Oh and Wales has had a parliament at Machynlleth/Harlech we even had foreign dignitaries coming over from France, Ireland, Spain and Scotland to lend us support against the English. Oh and different languages my a*se.

[Sava]

Looking at the history of English rule, I can postulate why the English rose to power in the British Isles.

1. During the Dark Ages, the English channel gave them a physical boundary in which Germanic armies could not cross in an attempt to conquer Britain.

2. From 1400-1938, Englands Naval Superiority prevent any other nation from landing troops and conquering Britain.

3. From the early 1500's to early 1800's, England (relatively small in population) subjugated half the world because they had muskets and a superior Navy. England quickly conquered the British Isles with ease (musket wielding infantrymen vs sword and spear toting Scots, Welsh, and Irish), then went on to control most of India, Africa, and New England(US).

4. If Hitler was smart, he would have left the Russian Bear alone and focused on taking Britain. Then he should have focused on building Naval Superiority in the Atlantic. Perhaps the Nazis would have won WWII. Churchill should have written a letter to Emperor Hirohito, thanking him for Pearl Harbor. That's what got the Americans into WWII. I think it's ironic that a former subjugate of England ended up saving it from the most evil force ever to walk the Earth (Nazis).

Why do you think English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world? Why do countries like Japan, India, and China make learning English as a second language a priority?

All of you people were complaining that you didn't want Civ 3 to be a historical simulator, now you are complaining that it isn't historically accurate? Seriously, you ppl need to shut up. LOL.

TO DRACO aka Se7en

Are you the same Se7en who plays Counter-Strike on Thermal Reactor?

[red_jon]

Actually, SoulAssassin, Napolean managed to land on English soil.

And Lenius, if you base your arguments on steriotypes and actions which occured hundreds of years ago, you'll turn into Bob Dornan

[Alexander I]

Hitler DID try to get at Britain! What do you think Rudolf Hess flew over there for? He was trying to create an Aryan alliance with Great Britain! Hitler's propaganda was directed at destroying a global enemy, the Jews and Bolshevists. He was wrong about the Jews, but right about the communists. The British leaders would have none of it, though.

My own grandfather was waiting at Dieppe for an invasion of Britain that never happened. (They couldn't disembark an invasion fleet, having lost the Battle of Britain.)

And the Nazis were ONE of the most evil forces to ever walk the earth. To declare it the WORST is going a little to far, in my opinion. There have been plenty of others and a few worse.

[Kenobi]

Originally posted by SoulAssassin
Looking at the history of English rule, I can postulate why the English rose to power in the British Isles.

1. During the Dark Ages, the English channel gave them a physical boundary in which Germanic armies could not cross in an attempt to conquer Britain.

2. From 1400-1938, Englands Naval Superiority prevent any other nation from landing troops and conquering Britain.

3. From the early 1500's to early 1800's, England (relatively small in population) subjugated half the world because they had muskets and a superior Navy. England quickly conquered the British Isles with ease (musket wielding infantrymen vs sword and spear toting Scots, Welsh, and Irish), then went on to control most of India, Africa, and New England(US).

4. If Hitler was smart, he would have left the Russian Bear alone and focused on taking Britain. Then he should have focused on building Naval Superiority in the Atlantic. Perhaps the Nazis would have won WWII. Churchill should have written a letter to Emperor Hirohito, thanking him for Pearl Harbor. That's what got the Americans into WWII. I think it's ironic that a former subjugate of England ended up saving it from the most evil force ever to walk the Earth (Nazis).

Why do you think English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world? Why do countries like Japan, India, and China make learning English as a second language a priority?

All of you people were complaining that you didn't want Civ 3 to be a historical simulator, now you are complaining that it isn't historically accurate? Seriously, you ppl need to shut up. LOL.

You're wrong on 1) and 4):

1) The channel did not become a barrier until England was unified under a government that made naval strength important (i.e. under the Tudors). Until then it was used by the following races to invade and conquer "England": Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The English - like many peoples - are a mongrel creation, made up of these various invaders. The distinction between the Celts and "English" is highly spurious - I've always preferred the concept of a "British" tribe. The "English" came to dominate the island of Britain under the Plantagenets because they had the largest and most unified government on the island. The Welsh and Scots were always done in by their disunity.

4) The Battle of Britain was fought entirely to provide the Germans with the necessary air superiority to invade Britain, code named Operation Sea Lion. Hitler did plan on invading Britain, but in his over-confidence got sucked into Russia, which was where the Nazis were broken. I think we've had this argument before, but Russia was the critical factor in Germany's defeat, not Britain or the USA.

[Provost Harrison]

OK, the question is, what should the cities be for the English or British.

If it is English, I think some cities which were never included in the civ2 list of cities should be put in that are significant, such as Lincoln, Winchester or Hull (). And no bleeding Richmond which is a puny town in North Yorkshire.

If they are the British, then obviously Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff and Swansea should be high up on that list as well, as well as other significant towns, historically or commercially, in these regions (Newport, Dundee, Aberdeen, Caerphilly)

[Zulu Elephant]

And no bleeding Richmond which is a puny town in North Yorkshire

Richmonds in there cos of its castle (quite a strategic place in its time)

Dont make me send my friends in Richmond come and get you

[Dauphin]

And no bleeding Richmond which is a puny town in North Yorkshire.

They may aswell of put in Bagshot while they were at it. Sometimes it felt like that had grabbed a map of England and picked some place at random after the ran out of the obvious ones.

Ashford, Maidstone, Canterbury, Dover, Ramsgate, Rochester, Sevenoaks, Bromley. They should all be in there!

[kittenOFchaos]

Alexander01 Hess NEVER flew to Britain...it was his double...

"The Independent" newspaper did an article on this earlier this year...it was tragic...

The man who flew over was a double...presumably hitler had dispatched Hess to his death and saw an opportunity to try and inspire some nazi sympathizers in the Uk.

The double wasn´t convincing to British intelligence BUT since they had released info that it was Hess they could hardly change position.

The double was killed in the late 80s by british agents dressed as american officers (the americans were imprisoning him at the time).


Sorry not to have a large amount of detail...but should you look up "The Independent" newspaper website or e-mail them you should get confirmation...THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY, MERELY A TRAGIC STORY.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
And no bleeding Richmond which is a puny town in North Yorkshire.

They may aswell of put in Bagshot while they were at it. Sometimes it felt like that had grabbed a map of England and picked some place at random after the ran out of the obvious ones.

Ashford, Maidstone, Canterbury, Dover, Ramsgate, Rochester, Sevenoaks, Bromley. They should all be in there!

They included Brighton and Hastings, both towns either side of Eastbourne, but not Eastbourne itself

But why the hell wasn't Sheffield included? It is one of Britain's largest cities and was an important industrial town.

[Dauphin]

They included Brighton and Hastings, both towns either side of Eastbourne, but not Eastbourne itself

Well Brighton has the pier and Pavillion, whilst Hastings has the East Cliff golf course and lift. Eastbourne only has old people to offer. Crowhurst, St Leonard's, Battle, Winchelsea, Rye etc have as much right to be in the game as Eastbourne.

Sheffield should have been included and was an oversight. All million plus cities should be on the list, as should any city that was important in the development of a nation or region. Places like Canterbury, Dover....

If it is a "must see" place on an American tour of European sites of historical interest then I guess it qualifies. Do you get many Americans visiting Eastbourne these days?

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by tniem


No it does not. Look he is refered to as this because there is no U.S. ethnicity and that is what they were going for. The British, Egyptians, the Russians, and the Germans. All an ethniticity. The U.S. doesn't have that.

So what they substitute is Americans. It is how it has to be. It is the U.S. tribe name.

The four states named have been overrun again and again by peoples that did not originate on the soil they now occupy. How are they any more of an "ethnicity" than the Americans (which is what U.S. citizens call themselves, however arrogant that might be). Germany spoke three dialects so separate as to be uninterperable to outsiders; Russians were overrun by Norsemen, Mongols, and dozens of Asiian tribes looking to go from nomadic to cultivation; Britain has been heavily discussed as being of dubious origin and not one culture; and Egypt has been overrun by at least five cultures (Greece, Rome, Arabs, Turks, British) since it was a major world power. America is a conglomerate, but so are the examples given for contrast.

[red_jon]

Accidental Double Post. Sorry.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
They included Brighton and Hastings, both towns either side of Eastbourne, but not Eastbourne itself

Well Brighton has the pier and Pavillion, whilst Hastings has the East Cliff golf course and lift. Eastbourne only has old people to offer. Crowhurst, St Leonard's, Battle, Winchelsea, Rye etc have as much right to be in the game as Eastbourne.

Sheffield should have been included and was an oversight. All million plus cities should be on the list, as should any city that was important in the development of a nation or region. Places like Canterbury, Dover....

If it is a "must see" place on an American tour of European sites of historical interest then I guess it qualifies. Do you get many Americans visiting Eastbourne these days?

Actually, we own a b&b and get numerous foreign guests - including Americans

Eastbourne has the pier- in 1996 it was Britain's 8th top tourist attraction with over 2 millions visitors (and our b&b is right near it )

And I was born in Sheffield

[Dauphin]

Actually, we own a b&b and get numerous foreign guests - including Americans

My condolences.