***never Is Too Late!!!*** Add More Tribe Options!!!!!!!!!!

[XarXo]

WHO MADE THE TRIBE LIST??????

MONGOLS??? INCANS??? SPANISH???? Where are them??? They had enormous empires and now... Nothing?

I suggest a list of 24 tribes, *ONLY* 24!!!!!!!!!!!! *ONLY* 8 MORE!!!!!! With the ones that you have made, o dear FIRAXIS. With this ones you cover ALL the basic cultures and could have a map without tons of starting points concentrated in a small zone (Europe...).

I sorted them in continents. No one more, no one less.

America: USA (Americans), Iroquois (Iroquese), The Birú (Incans, or the Tauantisuyu confederation) and Aztec Empire (Aztecs).

(4 tribes)

Europe: British, Russians, Romans, Spanish, French, Germans and Greeks.

(7 tribes)

Asia: China, Japan, Mongolia, India, Persia, Babylon, Israel and Siam (the Thai culture!!!!).

(8 tribes)

Africa: Zulus, Ethiopians, Egypt and Nigeria (this last one is the african state with the biggest increase in development, with an enormous territory and will have 600 millions at the 2020/2025).

(4 tribes)

Oceania: Polynese (Hawaii and the other Pacific islands, they could have a trirreme when start, with the expansionist option and a GOOD exploration AI, is a good posibility)

(1 tribe)

4 + 7 + 8 + 4 + 1 = 24

In the future expansion pack you can add 8 tribes, like these ones: Vikings, Portuguese, Catalans, Inuit, Turkish, Arabians (Arabia Saudi), Argentinians and Brazilians.

[Inverse Icarus]

yea. lets wait for firaxis to add a bunch of new leaders.

just what i need.

read the first line of the profile bub. then wait for an expansion pack.

[DarkCloud]

If we MUST include a native american civilization, just lump them all together: (Why the Biriu? why not the Mississippians or the Snake Mound builders, or the olmecs?)

Thus:
Civs:

Aztecs
Americans
Native Americans

British
Russians
Romans
French
Germans
Greeks
Spanish
Vikings

Chinese
Japanese
Persians
Mongols

Egyptians
Ghana (greater empire than the Zulu or Ethiopians; ancient empire)

Thus: only 16 Civilizations are needed

[XarXo]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
If we MUST include a native american civilization, just lump them all together: (Why the Biriu? why not the Mississippians or the Snake Mound builders, or the olmecs?)
Thus: only 16 Civilizations are needed

The Birú (not "Inca Empire") is a 600 years succesion of empires (the last, the Inca one), they have an astronomy more advanced than the rest in the world in the moment, they controlled an empire as big as Brazil and they trade routes made magnificient cities and roads in all the Andes. Mississippians are only known by their racist past, Snake Mound , I don't knwo, olmecs was like mayans, a great civilization, but not enough to be included.

The Birú (the real and actual one) is Ecuador + Peru + Half Bolivia + Half Chile. See it in a map and compare this with Germany, France or another country. A lot of ecuatorians and bolivians think in a the Tauantisuyu State to save their Qeichua culture, a culture of 55 million of people. If you think that it's not enough, OK.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ghana (greater empire than the Zulu or Ethiopians; ancient empire)

OK, and Mali too, but Ethiopia is a special country, it has the most old state organization in africa (except for Egypt), they *probably* have the original hebrew alliance arc (yes!!), they have an empire a lot bigger, without enormous deserts of "no-one here", they controlled a lot of different cultures, etc...

Ghana... Well... Is possibility in the expansion pack

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by XarXo


The Birú (not "Inca Empire") is a 600 years succesion of empires (the last, the Inca one), they have an astronomy more advanced than the rest in the world in the moment, they controlled an empire as big as Brazil and they trade routes made magnificient cities and roads in all the Andes. Mississippians are only known by their racist past, Snake Mound , I don't knwo, olmecs was like mayans, a great civilization, but not enough to be included.

Okay, didn't know that Biru was made up of Incans. Incans have a right to be included... but I believe that the Aztecs would be a more interesting civ to have in civ... so If one has to go...

The Snake Mound builders are the Mississippian Civilization... Not the Mississipian Confederate people 'racist past' HAHAHAHAAH. Sorry, it's easy to get the two confused.

The Mississipians, like the Anasazi were an ancient North American pre-colombian civilization.

OK, and Mali too, but Ethiopia is a special country, it has the most old state organization in africa (except for Egypt), they *probably* have the original hebrew alliance arc (yes!!), they have an empire a lot bigger, without enormous deserts of "no-one here", they controlled a lot of different cultures, etc...

Ghana... Well... Is possibility in the expansion pack

Sorry, forgot about Mali.
Ethiopia, all I know is that it was the only African civilization to escape colonization by the Europeans. I think they fought the French and maybe the Belgian civilizations.

Hebrew Alliance Arc?
but the deserts are made of nothing
Mali or Ghana is better than Ethiopia

[Wernazuma III]

Though I fear this is academic only , I think in Africa Abessinians win over Ghana/Mali and Zulus, the mali would win over Zulu. What speaks for the abessinians is the continuity of their civ and the fact that they MOL resisted imperialism.

[Wernazuma III]

while ghana was part of the islamic culture, ethiopia was the home of christians and jews (really not hebrews, but black jews)
they fought the islam for ages and never were conquered, though completely isolated. there is an ethiopian literature and since the 14th cent. they were identified by europeans as the legendary kingdom of the priest john. they also had to fight the english and italians. The latter won finally over them but it was a bloody and nasty war, having the italians losing many men.

Originally posted by XarXo


The Birú (not "Inca Empire") is a 600 years succesion of empires (the last, the Inca one), they have an astronomy more advanced than the rest in the world in the moment, they controlled an empire as big as Brazil and they trade routes made magnificient cities and roads in all the Andes. Mississippians are only known by their racist past, Snake Mound , I don't knwo, olmecs was like mayans, a great civilization, but not enough to be included.

The Birú (the real and actual one) is Ecuador + Peru + Half Bolivia + Half Chile. See it in a map and compare this with Germany, France or another country. A lot of ecuatorians and bolivians think in a the Tauantisuyu State to save their Qeichua culture, a culture of 55 million of people. If you think that it's not enough, OK.

09-08-2001 19:11



quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
I think they changed from Sioux to Iroquois because the Iroquois were much more a real civ, they weren't loose tribes but were unified in an alliance and more or less behaved like a single nation towards the Western colonists and other native North-Americans. My knowledge of the Sioux is limited but I think they were much less unified and one could thus argue that they aren't even a real civ whereas the Iroquois were (I'm not sure if everyone would agree to this but I can see how Firaxis might).



Locutus, I was going to post this 2 days ago but!! You are correct, the Iroquois were a federation from around 1400AD (Or early) to 1779 when General John Sullivan, under George Washington's orders, took revenge on the Indians by destroying their villages. The Federation was made up by the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca. The Iroquois called themselves the Ongwanonhsioni. This name refers to their dwellings and means we long house builders. About 1722 the Tuscarora Indians joined the league, which then became known as the Six Nations. The confederation of states that became the United States of America may have been patterned after the Iroquois League.
The Iroquois were a Federation longer that either the Aztecs or the Incas was an Empire. 379 years or so.
Both the Incas and Aztecs were started around 1400. I used an Encyclopedia to research both.

Originally posted by XarXo


I don't knwo, olmecs was like mayans, a great civilization, but not enough to be included.

The Mayans were around as a Civs from 2500BC to 950AD. Let's see 950 + 2500= 3450 years. Not bad for someone who is not included.

[Urban Ranger]

The selection of which civs to include is heavily influenced by commercial decisions. Otherwise the US ("Americans") would not have been in, at all. Ditto with a number of European civs. What would be in would be civs in Africa, the Americas, and Asia.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The Mayans were around as a Civs from 2500BC to 950AD. Let's see 950 + 2500= 3450 years. Not bad for someone who is not included.

right, though i'm an aztec freak I would not have complained if they had included the Mayans. They were much around longer and were more innovative. They existed longer than until 950, though the toltecs conquered much of the land. Since then we had Tolteca Mayans, but the mayan cultural influence was still bigger. Many regions in Yucatan resisted the spanish until late in the 17th century and many kept their culture until today, to a higher degree than the Mexica (Aztecs) do

[DarkCloud]

The Americans would have been included in the game unless it was produced by American-haters.

Note:

-Americans participated in imperialism: The Phillipines, Cuba, islands, etc.
-Civil War (This seems a preq. for a civ to be included in Civ II. IE Spanish, English, Japanese, etc. )
-WW2 Major participant
-The major nuclear power of the world today.
-The major immigration country. Supposedly the 'best' country to go to if you are tired, poor, etc.
-No real social or class structures (unlike England )
-Etc.
-World Power from 1900-2000
-Major power from 1930-2000
Note that the stocks crashed in America, then simultaneously everywhere in the world.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
no class structures (unlike England )

How I just hate class, especially the class room

Just joking

To the topic: FIRAXIS! ADD MORE CIVS, or at least make it posible for the player to choose between more than 16 civs

[tniem]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Thus: only 16 Civilizations are needed

I counted 17 in your list and you did not include any Metsopatamian culture - the birthplace of civilization.

[Provost Harrison]

Well some inclusions would be nice, definitely Spanish, Inca, Arab, Turk, Mongol. There are others that are significant that could be added, but not so much as these four. Perhaps the Potuguese or Thai for example. Still, I do not consider it to be that important an issue because their attributes would overlap with those of other civilizations...

[El hidalgo]

As a practical matter, you have to make some choices. For example, it would be ridiculous to have both Mali and Ghana. They overlap too much territory. The Mali have a more famous leader (Mansa Musa), so I say go with them. Mesopotamian includes Babylon, Sumer, etc., so again pick one, and I say Babylonians. Inca is a better-known name than 'Birú', so I say go with that. There are too many minor Native American peoples to include, so Iroquois seems good enough to me to stand for all of them.

That said, it's obvious (to me) that there are still too few civs. We need all the civs from Civ 2 (including the hidden ones, Arabs and Incas), plus more, including Turks, Mali, and a SE Asia civ (Khmer?), at least. Those are fairly large omissions, from either a historical perspective or a game-playing perspective (on historical grounds you can exclude the Mali, but as a matter of balance and game play it would be really great to have a civ in west Africa).

[MarkG]

dont mean to disapoint you, but IT IS TOO LATE TO ADD NEW CIVS NOW

[El hidalgo]

Originally posted by MarkG
dont mean to disapoint you, but IT IS TOO LATE TO ADD NEW CIVS NOW

True, but why let that stop us? Any excuse to rehash the old "which civs..." debate.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by El hidalgo
Any excuse to rehash the old "which civs..." debate.

ah yes, what's more fun than debating which nation is better than the other?

[Brent]

The Cherokee would be good... maybe Cree. One of my wishes would be all the native tribes fron Colonization. Maybe make it possible to import civs from ready made scenarios into the main game. Swiss, Sami, Athapaskan, Powhatan, Luxembourgish, Estonian, Singapore, Tongan, Rwanda, Guyana... but then I'm being silly.

I say... Let the Civ 4 Wish List Begin!!!

[Pythagoras]

I was very happy to see that the team worked on new gameplay, and sacrificed doubling the number of tribes. Also, the civs are much more individualized this time 'round. So stop your gabbing and just live with it. I do hope that those "check boxes" are replaced by a drop down menu so that one can throw in any custom civ he wants without having to sacrifice another civ...

[Eddin]

America is NOT a nation. It is a confederation in state, and it doesn't posess a true identity or racial past. They are virtually Brittish peasants (they even have an accent which is native to some poor part of England of which the name eludes me for a moment) who managed to break free from their Rulers and started a democracy. Indeed, Commercial/expansionalist would have suited them fine.

But, I must agree they hold an important part in the world today, they are (regretfully) the world superpower of today and probably some days to come (until Bush f***s up the world that is). For this reason they should be implemented, but it's rather poblematic that they don't really have a past.

It must sound like I really hate America (I do actually, but that's not the point)

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by tniem


I counted 17 in your list and you did not include any Metsopatamian culture - the birthplace of civilization.

Okay, then 18, sorry I omitted the Babylonians

Brent- That is overkill. Just how important are the Swiss?
The Cree? The Cherokee? The last two weren't truly civilizations, they were tribal structures. The Iroquois League was the most truly civilization of the Indians, and it only lasted a few years as independed of America.

Mark, We want to A: Complain B: Get our Post Counts up C: Want Civ IV to be good

[Eddin]

When do I get my own avatar?

[XarXo]

dont mean to disapoint you, but IT IS TOO LATE TO ADD NEW CIVS NOW

You are in the wrong way Mark , I will explain why:

-If Civ III editor is included, and WE can change the options in Civ III, why FIRAXIS can't? They can't use their own programs????? If we can modify the game THEY CAN TOO, and also they have a lot of potent computers with fast and amaizing design programs, not Paintbrush as us. They are professionals. Also, DAN MAGAHA, Civ3.com is made, yes? You have a co-webmaster YES? So you have more FREE TIME!!! Use it to make the 8 civilizations that we need!!! We're in August, with 60 days you can make:

- 8 special units.
- 8 leaders (x 4, for the 4 ages in the game).
- 8 city lists (ooooh, too difficult!!! )

The advisors styles an the other stuff is the same for consecuent cultures, so IT COULD BE MADE!!!!

If you need info about the cultures, I can refresh you that Incans, Mongols, Spanish and other ones yet have leader names and city list in Civ II!!!! (Incans were hidden in the RULES.TXT)

So, IT CAN BE MADE, WE DON'T NEED TO WAIT TO CIV IV OR A SILLY EXPANSION PACK!!!!!

Now, other questions:

Inca is a better-known name than 'Birú', so I say go with that.

Well, yes, the "The Birú" name sound a bit strange, but is the original name in qeichua language, actually is the "El Perú" country, the spanish adaption.

The Cherokee would be good... maybe Cree. One of my wishes would be all the native tribes fron Colonization. Maybe make it possible to import civs from ready made scenarios into the main game. Swiss, Sami, Athapaskan, Powhatan, Luxembourgish, Estonian, Singapore, Tongan, Rwanda, Guyana... but then I'm being silly.

Well, a known Civ-Requirement is that the civilization must have some other-cultures-exterminations, bloody wars, terrorist tactical moves, horrorous past and large empires that dured short periods. i. e.: Germany, USA, Japan, Spain, China, Greece...

[Eddin]

If I were Firaxis, I would be much too lazy to make an ENTIRE new set of faces while you have actually nearly finished the game.

Then again, I'm not in Firaxis

!GO FIRAXIS GO!

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Eddin
If I were Firaxis, I would be much too lazy to make an ENTIRE new set of faces while you have actually nearly finished the game.

Then again, I'm not in Firaxis

!GO FIRAXIS GO!

Well, not an ENTIRE NEW SET, only the 8 new ones, the old ones are perfect!! I refresh the list :

- Mongols (Mongolia),
- Spanish (Spain),
- Incans (The Birú),
- Hebrews (Israel),
- Siamese (Siam, the Thailand-Myanmar-Malaysia-Cambodja-Laos-
Vietnam-Bangla Desh culture),
- Ethiopians (Ethiopia),
- Nigerians (Nigeria, an enormous population, big country, great
industrial growth, a lot of militar power... Is the
Africa version of China). Nigeria is the principal country
in the Swagili ethnic territory. Represents all the
western africa zone.
- Polynesians (Polynese, is the representant of the Pacific and
Australia, actually empty in the original Civ I/II
versions. They contribueited with the magnificient
Rapa-Nui Moais, the Hawaian culture...) with a correct
shallow-sea "road" connecting each island and
Australia , a good AI, a trirreme when start and the
seafearing knowledge, why not???

I *truly* believe that they are the correct ones, and remember that 3 of them were included in Civ II (Incans in a hidden position...).

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by Eddin
America is NOT a nation. It is a confederation in state, and it doesn't posess a true identity or racial past. They are virtually Brittish peasants (they even have an accent which is native to some poor part of England of which the name eludes me for a moment) who managed to break free from their Rulers and started a democracy. Indeed, Commercial/expansionalist would have suited them fine.

But, I must agree they hold an important part in the world today, they are (regretfully) the world superpower of today and probably some days to come (until Bush f***s up the world that is). For this reason they should be implemented, but it's rather poblematic that they don't really have a past.

It must sound like I really hate America (I do actually, but that's not the point)

Although I hate America too, I happen to know enough about it to say that indeed it is a nation with its own identity. Its a very paradoxical identity- Americans typically associate themselves 1 Extreme fear of centralized authority and 2 Extreme puritanism. Both of these flavor American society and give it a culture, even if it is rather paradoxical.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by XarXo
They are professionals. Also, DAN MAGAHA, Civ3.com is made, yes? You have a co-webmaster YES? So you have more FREE TIME!!! Use it to make the 8 civilizations that we need!!! We're in August, with 60 days you can make:

- 8 special units.
- 8 leaders (x 4, for the 4 ages in the game).
- 8 city lists (ooooh, too difficult!!! )

last time i checked Dan was doing work around webmastering, web designing, etc, NOT 3d graphics renderings!

something tells me the animations(which will be pre-renderred) of the leaders in the diplomacy screen need a LOT of work and (renderding) time to be made


perhaps if we had someone from the art team, he could tell us how many frames each leader has(hint for the gods)....