Thread Tools
Old August 11, 2001, 15:04   #1
MarkG
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
 
MarkG's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
c#181 CHARACTERS / GRAPHICS
181# CHARACTERS / GRAPHICS
2 articles, 1 subject: civ3...

by Argentinot and TINOMan
__________________
Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

Last edited by MarkG; August 11, 2001 at 16:08.
MarkG is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 16:02   #2
To_Serve_Man
Warlord
 
To_Serve_Man's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Albany, NY, USA
Posts: 128
Huh?


Isnt ULTIMATE MODS: MAKING GAMES OBSOLETE #180?
__________________
"Mr. Chambers! Don't get on that ship! We've mastered the book, To Serve Man.... it - its a cook book!"
To_Serve_Man is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 16:42   #3
Mech Assassin
Chieftain
 
Mech Assassin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: and a Finnish Assassin in Time.
Posts: 51
Yes, Ultimate mods is #180 and this is #181...

Anyways, yes, leader characters would be nice... Maybe you should be allowed to give the generals a control of some operation and you'd only define the goals, that general would try to achieve. Same with turning city to auto-build with governor and some issues at the country to auto-run with ministers...
Mech Assassin is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 17:34   #4
Locutus
Apolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 SP Democracy GameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamBtS Tri-LeagueC4BtSDG TemplarsC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV CreatorsCTP2 Source Code ProjectPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Locutus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: De Hel van Enschede
Posts: 11,702
Argentinot,
You're not the first to have this idea, check out the Clash of Civilizations website and forum, they plan on implementing a similar system.
__________________
Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery
Locutus is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 19:22   #5
RGE
Chieftain
 
RGE's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Karlstad
Posts: 49
I don't know about special characters in a strategic game. I'd have trouble enough keeping track of all the cities, so I wouldn't want to have to check up on each units generals loyalty too. There are diplomats who can bribe units, and in Alpha Centauri there's an option to give units a special ability that makes them twice as expensive to convert. I think this is a good enough simulation of disloyalty within an army.

As for graphics, I'd have to say that playing a black and white game isn't all that fun. I like to see graphics that enhance the mood of the game. They don't need to be fancy and push the limits of technology, but they have to have the right artistic quality. And a lot of Civ II units don't look that good in my eyes. But I still thought the game was worth playing a few times, because graphics just isn't as important as gameplay. For extended play though, better graphics might've been essential. It's not much fun entering the industrial age and get all those ugly red brick buildings all over your glorious civilization.
RGE is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 23:56   #6
Laszlo
Warlord
 
Laszlo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 137
I think that some sort of labeling option should be allowed for units. It could be useful for instance, to have all your NONE units bearing a special marker (only to you, the owner - how's someone else to know how you support your armies?) to denote their special status. then you could remember to protect them more, or not waste an extra NONE settler on a city.

On the graphics issue though, I agree with RGE. The Civ 2 graphics, especially all the gray on the windows looks a bit dated. You need more land and city uniqueness, maybe even the damaged units will look different, or a staggered advance of city types so there can be big white shining cities, smaller brick-walled cities, then the real bqackcountry uses log cabins and stone walls for their towns.

But, as always, gameplay should come before graphics. And the graphics screenshots on civ3.com looked pretty spiffy - let's hope the gameplay is still better.
Laszlo is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 01:12   #7
tniem
King
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hope College
Posts: 2,232
I thought that TINOman contradicted himself in his article. He tells Firaxis not to worry about the graphics - they are not what makes a game great.

Heck, I agree with this. Balance, AI, and gameplay make a game fun which is all that matters to me in most cases.

But the problem with his statement is that graphics are very important. Yes may be not to me or not to him, but they were to his friends. Remember he points out that they said "Civ 2 sucks!" or whatever simply because the graphics look bad.

I have similar friends. A couple of which actually started interested in Civ III but soon grew uninterested in the game due to the early screen shots. These people will never play the game unless one of us physically forces them to simply due to the graphics. They expect games to look real before they give them a try.

So what does this mean?

Graphics are important. Without them, the series may stay great but there will not be new gamers and so the series will ultimately die. Civ III will be it if the game does not sell well and it will not sell well without decent graphics. I really think that TINOMan missed the mark on this column.
tniem is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 03:30   #8
Todd Hawks
Prince
 
Todd Hawks's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 365
tniem,

You have some point there, but if you think about it, then you will get Civ3 with nice graphics and maybe not so good gameplay.
Then there will be a lot people buying the game.
Then Civ4 will be even better graphics and worse gameplay.
.....

And at the end you do have a lot of players and Civ won't "die", but it won't be the Civ that I (and you) liked to play.


I hope that we'll get decent graphics AND good gameplay. But if I had do take only one.....

Todd
Todd Hawks is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 12:09   #9
Mech Assassin
Chieftain
 
Mech Assassin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: and a Finnish Assassin in Time.
Posts: 51
The graphics matter for the masses. Not for retro gamers or hardcore strategists (strategy games (both, TB and RT) commonly give away in graphics). I still play UFO 1: Enemy Unknown, ivilization, Master of Orion, Master of Magic and such. The only thing that's outdated is graphics. Everything else is good. And I'd rather play those games than todays mass-market games with super graphics, but poor gameplay. Heck, if I want to see only good graphics, I go to see a movie. It's gameplay that makes a game. It's graphics, that makes the game to sell at mass-markets... Stupid, but true. I buy games for the game, not graphics, but not many seem to agree with me.
Mech Assassin is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 16:21   #10
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
About those governors...

MOO2 had governors and admirals you could hire (drawing heavily from MOM) and get various bonuses. But I would hate for civ3 to turn into that.
If I'm going to have a governor, I think I should trade off the production or whatever bonuses by letting him run the city. If I don't like the way he's running the city, I can fire him and try to find someone else, or just manage the city myself without the bonuses.
I think that would lend a sense of balance to the governors thing.

Mind you, I'm fairly sure it's too late for this sort of innovation.

But finding and firing various mayors could become a game in itself
__________________
Any man can be a Father, but it takes someone special to be a BEAST

I was just about to point out that Horsie is simply making excuses in advance for why he will suck at Civ III...
...but Father Beast beat me to it! - Randomturn
Father Beast is offline  
Old August 14, 2001, 14:44   #11
dadacp
Settler
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: D-55129 Mainz, Germany
Posts: 28
I agree completely about the graphics. Gameplay is much more important than graphics. Nowadays the game reviews rate the games to a large extent by the graphics and sound, and the game companies put out games with great graphics and sound, but not much else. When I hear that a strategy game has excellent graphics and sound, I get suspicious that maybe it doesn't have much depth.
__________________
dadacp@gmx.net
dadacp is offline  
Old August 14, 2001, 14:57   #12
dadacp
Settler
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: D-55129 Mainz, Germany
Posts: 28
I agree completely about the graphics. Gameplay is much more important than graphics. Nowadays the game reviews rate the games to a large extent by the graphics and sound, and the game companies put out games with great graphics and sound, but not much else. When I hear that a strategy game has excellent graphics and sound, I get suspicious that maybe it doesn't have much depth.
__________________
dadacp@gmx.net
dadacp is offline  
Old August 16, 2001, 21:13   #13
Scrooge
Settler
 
Scrooge's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Europe ...err... mostly
Posts: 22
I would like to comment on the "leaders" part.
I've seen a lot of discussions on the topic, since the Firaxis is thinking on implementing this feature.
----------
The concept of leaders is great fun, great fun indeed, ufff... The leaders could represent wonders of human kind. Almost same rules apply as for static wonders.

Leaders should not be historical (well, ok they may have some preset names which you could change in generic games, after all Newton was Newton, but just as well his name could be Oldton, then we'd have Oldton's Laws, you should get to name 'em leaders). Fixed names for scenarios perhaps.

This is how it could go:
> type of leader = example - prerequisite or trigger (to be worked out) - effect example

Military leaders would be of the most common kind and would stack with armies boosting some stat of your choice except movement - can't imagine a legion of Marathon runners (1-5 leaders max at any one time; 1 for every 10 cities)

> military leaders = GENERALS, COMMANDERS (like Patton, Nelson) - # of barracks, later adequate army, navy rating or aircraft rating (or just no. of units) - boost a stat

Civic leaders - (0-2 leaders max of the kind at any one time; you have to deserve them, 1 per 25 cities)

> scientific leaders = RESEARCHERS (like Newton, Einstein) - # of research facilities / scientists in city / "test tube" output - boost research, increase chance of early discovery
> economic = TYCOONS (like Rockefeller, help me) - # of economic facilities / bankers in city / "coin" output - boost coin output of one city further
> industrial = MOGULS ENGINEERS (like Stevenson, Ford) - # of industrial facilities / engineers in city / "shield" output - boost shield output of one city further
> cultural = ARTISTS (like Da Vinci, Elvis) - # of happy people / culture output - boost happiness or culture further of a city, quench revolts or civil disorder for 1trn, prevent migration, whatever you choose from available options

The exact prerequisites for the leader to "be born" have to be play-tested. To get the max 2 leaders of the same kind you have to be a nation strong in the corresponding field. Also, when a trigger is complete, for a couple of trns, there must be some growing chance (like n+10% per trn chance) for a leader to be born (so they don't spring up on automatic the next trn after I jiggle with the city's output).

Now when a leader "is born", you get a small "A Leader Is Born" window with Leader Name (preset but editable) and 2-3 leader stats (radio buttons), like what he does.
Military leaders this can be a >type of army: o land o sea o air (choices),
and what he does >boost: o attack rating o defense rating o morale.
Later perhaps even >favorite unit pull-down (like armour, so he could be your fav gen. Batton).

Civilian leaders exactly as above only sphere of influence is city of your choice and benefits civilian. This way you can send an engineer leader to a small undeveloped city to boost it's production and develop a factory faster; or you could send an artist to an unhappy city if you don't want to convert the locals into entertainers; or send an artist on a tour abroad for 5 trns to rise your standing with that nation. Feel free to explore the possibilities. Just close your eyes.

You can influence the leader's abilities because it's your education system that "breeds them". So you have to have schools, academies and univs or maybe a !NEW! war academy or naval school. Leaders have a random 10-25 turns finite lifespan (ancients have less) and can be killed by the enemy or taken over (bribe) or even if you're really bad, defect to the - hopefully better - neighboring nation. Leaders are like land units, that you can move from city to city freely and board transports. (the great naval commander Yammamoto got shot down in a transport plane)

If you really want to go crazy into leaders, add Great Leaders. These could represent historical figures, confirm the general leader rules as above, but have larger benefits, be way more "expensive" (prereqs) and be born only once per game and/or connect to advancements. Just like the new rules on wonders.

It's really that simple. Again most of the rules are already in place. Pushing my luck further, as I've mentioned in
#CivIII - Open-ended App thread
the leaders' files could be plug-ins also. Full thread on leaders click here

Aha, I would leave out religious leaders, for this can be a sensitive issue and for political correctness. As I've said in a different thread about trading leaders, tell me, which nation would "build" Jesus (and perhaps send him on a tour)?

THX for your attention. Sorry for spelling.
__________________

Grrreat fun... great fun, indeed...
Scrooge is offline  
Old August 17, 2001, 17:28   #14
tniem
King
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hope College
Posts: 2,232
Quote:
Originally posted by Todd Hawks
tniem,

You have some point there, but if you think about it, then you will get Civ3 with nice graphics and maybe not so good gameplay.
Then there will be a lot people buying the game.
Then Civ4 will be even better graphics and worse gameplay.
OK, I understand the concern of better graphics decreasing game play. I have grown up with it. The best games I played came back when you had to squint to even decipher what you were looking at. As graphics have improved, many developers have let graphics do their work for them and decreased game play.

But this is not always the case.

Black and White was not revolutionary because of the graphics (Sacrifice killed them and was still a good game) but because the AI was going to have an effect on the world. Blizzard games are highly addictive not because of their look but instead because the games are highly balanced and fun. The Sims was one of the best games in terms of gameplay in a long time. Games like Unreal, Max Payne, and Tribes 2 also boast great perspective graphics and are still a blast to play.

So all I am saying is game play is important. Graphics are important. Without either you hurt a game. Without decent graphics you lose prospective buyers and the game doesn't work with the interface. Meanwhile, without game play a game is just plain bad.

And all of the above games have incorporated cutting edge graphics and a great fun gameplay. So Firaxis should and I believe in a lot of cases has tried to do both.
tniem is offline  
Old August 20, 2001, 11:46   #15
OneFootInTheGrave
King
 
OneFootInTheGrave's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Kuzelj
Posts: 2,314
Anyway, graphics are getting better in last few months. (from the earliest screenshots).

Graphics are important unfortunatley, since they capture the imagination of newbies first, before they realise what potential is on their hard-drive.

It takes a while to learn how to play games like Civ. it is not just run and shoot. (which can be fun as well )
OneFootInTheGrave is offline  
Old August 22, 2001, 19:53   #16
Bill3000
King
 
Bill3000's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: of Soloralism
Posts: 2,246
Sure, graphics might be good, but it is not that important, because that game might be a bomb. For instance, Final Fantasy 8 had good graphics, but it had horrible gameplay. Same with a title that we are all familar with: Call to Power. If you go a game purely by its graphics, then you shouldn't be playing it at all.
__________________
"Compromises are not always good things. If one guy wants to drill a five-inch hole in the bottom of your life boat, and the other person doesn't, a compromise of a two-inch hole is still stupid." - chegitz guevara
"Bill3000: The United Demesos? Boy, I was young and stupid back then.
Jasonian22: Bill, you are STILL young and stupid."

"is it normal to imaginne dartrh vader and myself in a tjhreee way with some hot chick? i'ts always been my fantasy" - Dis
Bill3000 is offline  
Old August 22, 2001, 19:57   #17
Bill3000
King
 
Bill3000's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: of Soloralism
Posts: 2,246
One more thing
Also, if Civ 3 has good graphics, it will only be harder for scenario makers to edit. Look at CTP and SMAC, for instance.
Bill3000 is offline  
Old August 22, 2001, 20:01   #18
Immortal Wombat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Prince
 
Immortal Wombat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: in perpetuity
Posts: 4,962
Scrooge, I made a wonder-unit mod for CtP2, featuring 14 units I think that were created when a cheap wonder was built. They acted as generals, making all units under them veterans.
Immortal Wombat is offline  
Old August 25, 2001, 09:00   #19
JosefGiven
Warlord
 
JosefGiven's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Tavistock, Devon, UK
Posts: 243
Quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Scrooge, I made a wonder-unit mod for CtP2, featuring 14 units I think that were created when a cheap wonder was built. They acted as generals, making all units under them veterans.
Respect, Wombat. How hard is it to create animated sprites for a mod, just out of interest?
JosefGiven is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 04:05   #20
Starlite
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 14
I don't like the idea of leaders (or heroes in certain early fantasy strategy games). I think it's because they force the player to form too strong an attachment to them, not being so willing to risk them and making the defence of borders far too dependent on the location of these leaders.

I also suspect that, apart from the constant (and, to me, somewhat irritating) cry of "historical accuracy" (inappropriate in this sort of game, IMO), the reason so many people seem so keen on leaders is a symptom of the cult of celebrity so frequently subscribed to in our society. It amazes me no end how many people honestly believe movie stars are better than them, how hard they find it to relate upon meeting a famous personage. This was most obvious with the insane dedication of so many fans to the Big Brother phenomenon (as I observed in its Australian incarnation).

Of course, I may be reading too much into it. (I should have stuck with saying I don't like leaders.)

I like the anonymity of my units in Civ; personalities, I ascribe to my cities, not my units, and I think that's part of the attraction.

I also like being in complete control. Having my authority questioned by leaders, I find less desirable than even the frightening idea of a city revolting.

Anyway, that's my 2c.

Paulius
Starlite is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 05:10   #21
FrostyBoy
Emperor
 
FrostyBoy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Singapore (From New Zealand)
Posts: 4,948
Good graphics = Bad AI

please explain this nonsense to me will ya?


btw, if you believe this, your opinion to good graphics is most probably very different to an artists opinion.
FrostyBoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 05:43   #22
RGE
Chieftain
 
RGE's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Karlstad
Posts: 49
Well, it's like this, see. A game developer has a budget, and can't hire an infinite amount of competent programmers and artists. Thus, the developer must make a decision as to how many of each to employ, and thereby puts a certain priority on either gameplay and graphics. So more programmers indicate a better code (including AI), while more artists indicate better graphics. So it's not so much that "Good graphics = Bad AI" as it is "Better graphics = worse AI". The goal is usually to get "Good graphics + Good AI", much like your civilization usually tries to get a "Good military + Good infrastructure". Still, your infrastructure will always be a little bit better if you could get away with no military
RGE is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 07:15   #23
FrostyBoy
Emperor
 
FrostyBoy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Singapore (From New Zealand)
Posts: 4,948
I disagree

An artists ability is not judged by how much money he gets, same goes for a programmer, they ALL want to do the best they can.

And I'm sure Sid has an unlimited amount of money and plenty of time.

When it comes to companies as big as Firaxis, you don't need to worry about that better graphics/worse AI thing, thats only for small companies
FrostyBoy is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 07:53   #24
Rhysie
Warlord
 
Rhysie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally posted by Sn00py
I disagree

An artists ability is not judged by how much money he gets, same goes for a programmer, they ALL want to do the best they can.
This is quite simply wrong. First of all, the better the artist, the more pay he can demand. You can get a much better artist for twenty quid an hour than for five quid an hour. Secondly, the more time the artist has to spend on a project, the better he can do that project, refining any problems and re-doing things until he has something he is more pleased with - And the more time an artist spends on a project, the more hours pay you have to give them.

Therefore, more money = better art.
Rhysie is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 08:12   #25
Mech Assassin
Chieftain
 
Mech Assassin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: and a Finnish Assassin in Time.
Posts: 51
I personally like the leader idea. The leaders are a good way to add some more complexity to the game without making it too difficult. Also, border defense isn't so hard, because the leaders aren't required to defend. They just upgrade the chances of success. With good road system behind your lines, you can quickly move the armies to where they're needed, while your standard border forces hold up the enemy. Also, I think, realism to a certain point fits to game. The thing is, that it must be used properly. It's all, how they do it, not what they do. Too many seem to think, that "if 4X TBS is realistic, it's bad". It's all on how the realism is implemented. If it's done correctly, it will make the game far better. And, with rule-customization chances, like in Civ II, you can always toggle the rules on or off, depending on your likings.

About the artist thing, they need to concentrate on something. They have limited budget (the payers decide) and limited timeframe. That's what drives them and forces them to concentrate. If they hire many good artists to get good graphics in time, they can't hire enough good programmers to get good AI in time. Now, most go for the graphics, because that brings the masses to buy the game. I think, they should go more on AI.
Mech Assassin is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 22:49   #26
Shteven
Settler
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 6
i like the idea of leaders, i think they add a interesting twist to the game. however i hope they don't interfere with the gameplay too much. (which i don't think they would do).
Shteven is offline  
Old August 26, 2001, 22:59   #27
Shteven
Settler
 
Local Time: 12:20
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 6
I think that graphics has to be of a certain quality not to interfere with the gameplay or the game becomes unfun. for instance i like a tank to look like a tank and not be some pattern of pixels in which you have to stare at to decifer what it looks like. I like good graphics, however i don't buy games just because of it. i have a very limited money supply so i choose my games carefully.

btw - when i first got civ like 10 years or something ago when i was in elementry school i thought the settler in civ1 looked like a car, intill much latter when i realized it was actaully a wagon. however i loved civ1 and at the time it seemed like good graphics to me- just showing that graphics isn't everything for me (sorry for the random tangent )
Shteven is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:20.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team