If not Mao, who?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Transcend
Urban Ranger, the emperors in my list all committed atrocities. So what? They all made great accomplishments and those were the things people are going to remember. Who cares if Li Shiming murdered his brothers in a palace coup while the country's population tripled(population growth is a measure of peace and properity in ancient times) under his rule?

You shouldn't list Kangxi as a foreign oppressor because then you will feed ammunitions to separatists who claim Tibetans are not Chinese.

My point was all of them were bada*ses in one way or another. None of these rulers were "squeakly clean." They couldn't be.

My post was also only half-serious, in an attempt to demostrate that a critic can nitpick anybody.

Kangxi was a foeign oppressor but he was a better emperor than all those in the Sung and Ming dynasty, who were just native oppressors.

Some one send to me through my e-mail.


--THINGS YOU NEVER KNEW ABOUT...MAO TSE-TUNG:

The Chinese communist leader Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
(1893-1976) never took a bath. Mao achieved an epic
personal hygiene problem which grew steadily worse
as the years went by. (No kidding?) His only concession
was to allow his servants to wipe him down with a
wet towel.

He also never brushed his teeth, because he'd heard
that tigers never brushed their teeth, either!

Mao seldom got out of bed before noon. He would frequently
summon his ministers to meetings in the middle of the
night. Rarely bothering to get dressed, he spent most
of his time in bathrobes. He only wore his famous
Mao uniform when there were cameras around.

Originally posted by Transcend

Have you ever lived in China, or have you ever talked to any of eyewitnesses? Or do you derive your conclusions from American media and second hand account? If that's the case, you are hardly qualified to make any judgement about Mao.

My Father-in-Law was born in Canton, his three brothers live in China their entire life. Does he qualify.
No. 1 Brother 1890
No. 2 Brother 1900
No. 3 Brother 1910 Father-in-law
No. 4 Brother 1920
No. 2 Brother was sent to prison because he was a teacher and not to a farm. After release was sent to prison again because he was not re-educated enough the first time.
My F-I-L sent money to his mother (several thousand of dollar) No. 4 Brother had a son who came to America in the late 60s and reported that mom never received a dime and when she died in the 50s, the Brother were not allow to tell my F-I-L so he would cont.. to send money. They finely sneak the inform to my F-I-L so could quit sending money.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

My Father-in-Law was born in Canton, his three brothers live in China their entire life. Does he qualify.
No. 1 Brother 1890
No. 2 Brother 1900
No. 3 Brother 1910 Father-in-law
No. 4 Brother 1920
No. 2 Brother was sent to prison because he was a teacher and not to a farm. After release was sent to prison again because he was not re-educated enough the first time.
My F-I-L sent money to his mother (several thousand of dollar) No. 4 Brother had a son who came to America in the late 60s and reported that mom never received a dime and when she died in the 50s, the Brother were not allow to tell my F-I-L so he would cont.. to send money. They finely sneak the inform to my F-I-L so could quit sending money.

Did I address my posts at you?

[ancient]

Originally posted by joseph1944
Some one send to me through my e-mail.


--THINGS YOU NEVER KNEW ABOUT...MAO TSE-TUNG:

The Chinese communist leader Chairman Mao Tse-Tung
(1893-1976) never took a bath. Mao achieved an epic
personal hygiene problem which grew steadily worse
as the years went by. (No kidding?) His only concession
was to allow his servants to wipe him down with a
wet towel.

He also never brushed his teeth, because he'd heard
that tigers never brushed their teeth, either!

Mao seldom got out of bed before noon. He would frequently
summon his ministers to meetings in the middle of the
night. Rarely bothering to get dressed, he spent most
of his time in bathrobes. He only wore his famous
Mao uniform when there were cameras around.

really? is that why he shouldnt be a civ3 leader?

Originally posted by Transcend

Have you ever lived in China, or have you ever talked to any of eyewitnesses? Or do you derive your conclusions from American media and second hand account? If that's the case, you are hardly qualified to make any judgement about Mao.

Here is your statement. I may have in the past said unkind thing about Mao. Yes I never live in China, (I did visit Hong Kong New Years 1964). however my F-I-L has and Mao and Co. has done some petty bad thing to my Wife family (that stay in China), more than I will post.
What I really don't understand is why some of you people support Communism and then support guys like Stalin and Mao. The Cold War started when I was 3 years old. In Jan of 1951 age 6, I learned about the Korea War. A young girl around 25 had me over for cookies a lot. One day she told me I could not come over anymore because her Husband was coming home from the war. My last visit, I saw her husband and when he took his shirt off, I saw the hole in the back of his right shoulder. I asked my mother and she said there was a war in Korea. Also at this time we knew a Russian family that lived across the road. They told us stories about Russian and Stalin. But also told us never repeat the stories because of the KGB would find them and kill them. In High School (1959) my Art teacher was Russian. One day he sat down with us and told us about his family and why he left Russian. His distance cousin was Czar Nick and Family. When was 4 year old he said he still remember his Grandfather coming into the house and saying get your thing, we have to leave now. In the boat he said we were told not talk. We had to be very quiet, so the Communism would not see or hear them roll out to sea. They when to either Finland or Sweden in a small boat.
Hungarian revolt, many died.
Czechoslovakia revolt, many died.
Then the Berlin wall is built. Many people died while trying to escape.
I join the US Navy Feb. 1962. Cuban Missile crisis. I was lucky, I was on the west coast and not east cost.
Must carry a loaded weapon when in Korea because of North Korea.
Discharge March 1965, May/June my old ship goes to Vietnam. I was lucky again, missed Vietnam by 50 to 60 days.
Aug. 1965 Work for US Gov. Must signed a statement stating you are not a member of the Communist party or support the Communist party, US Navy and Gov. job.
So today I'm still anti-Communist. The Cold war is over for now, but when will China flex her muscle and tell us they are taking Taiwan and we better stay out of it or war? I was in Taiwan in 1963 and 64, they do not want to part of China. That is the Taiwanese and they also wish the Chinese would leave to.
Before anyone said Taiwan is part of China, you better go the Taiwan site and look up their History, you might be supprised.

We had a saying in the US Gov. One all-S__T wipe out all of the added-boy you have received. In my opinion Mao has earned more than one all-S__T in his life.

Originally posted by ancient


really? is that why he shouldnt be a civ3 leader?

It came to me as a e-mail nothing more. I read it and said to myself why not let all of the people at Apolyton read it, nothing more.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

What I really don't understand is why some of you people support Communism and then support guys like Stalin and Mao.

And the American government never did anything wrong?

The Americans killed millions of people in South-east Asia, including the unprovoked bombing of Cambodia and Laos, but hey, the American government are the nice guys.

The American government provided money and weapons to "friendly" governments around the world, with the money and weapons being used to murder innocent people and to fuel the drug trade.

Chiang and the KMT slaughtered 20,000 Taiwanese back in 1950 which is why the Taiwanese dislike the mainlanders.

Do I prefer the Americans over the Soviets? Of course. Are the Americans the good guys who never did anything evil. Definitely not.

[Transcend]

Joseph1944, Taiwan is going to unite with mainland whether you like it or not. Both countries speak the same language and share the same cultural background. Do you know the phrase "blood is thicker than water"? Most Taiwanese ARE Chinese, or were immigrants from Fujian province during the last 200 years. Taiwan's socalled native tongue is nothing more but the Fujian dialect. Taiwan has probably more in common with southern Chinese provinces than those with their northern counterparts. Among my conversations with Taiwanese people, I notice that they mostly call themselves "Taiwanese", as opposed to the "Mainlanders" under the PRC rule. The word "Chinese" does not only mean Mainlanders and Taiwanese, but everyone with Chinese origins.

Another reason that Taiwan would unify with the mainland is the economy. Taiwan is currently the largest foreign investor on the mainland, and the mainland is the largest market for Taiwanese business. If the mainland can continue its pace for another 10 years, Taiwan's interests will be so intricably linked to the mainland that a forced separation from China would mean its economical suicide. Even in today's climate, Taiwanese business and military would never accept an independence declaration from its president.

Finally, if I were the American President, I would never sell the latest weapon systems to Taiwan. The chance they would fall into PRC's hand is far greater than to be used against them. Only a foolish PRC leader could screw up the eventual peaceful unification with Taiwan.


As a side note, you have my condolences about what happened to your wife's family. My mother's family also suffered a great deal during that awful period. Even the current Chinese Premier sat for a couple of years in jail for being a "Rightist". But does that mean one should hate this country and government for an eternity? Wouldn't it be better to change it from inside out? Deng Xiaoping had already changed the very nature of the Communist Party, and the current General Secretary is subverting its very foundation by putting entrepreneurs(capitalists) into important functions. I believe that the next generation of leadership(beginning in 2003) will start dismantling the surface facade of the "Communist" Party.

Originally posted by Transcend
Joseph1944, Taiwan is going to unite with mainland whether you like it or not.

Right now I would wish for Independence

Both countries speak the same language and share the same cultural background. Do you know the phrase "blood is thicker than water"? Most Taiwanese ARE Chinese, or were immigrants from Fujian province during the last 200 years.

Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Taiwan's socalled native tongue is nothing more but the Fujian dialect. Taiwan has probably more in common with southern Chinese provinces than those with their northern counterparts.

Yes you are correct.
There are some Polynesian that still live there.

Among my conversations with Taiwanese people, I notice that they mostly call themselves "Taiwanese", as opposed to the "Mainlanders" under the PRC rule. The word "Chinese" does not only mean Mainlanders and Taiwanese, but everyone with Chinese origins.

The Ming people still today will not use Chinese as the name of their race. The young lady I met in 63 said her family had been in Taiwan as far back as Great Grand Father and there fore call her Taiwanese.

Another reason that Taiwan would unify with the mainland is the economy. Taiwan is currently the largest foreign investor on the mainland, and the mainland is the largest market for Taiwanese business.

Who need who. It sound like China need Taiwan more than Taiwan need China

If the mainland can continue its pace for another 10 years, Taiwan's interests will be so intractably linked to the mainland that a forced separation from China would mean its economical suicide. Even in today's climate, Taiwanese business and military would never accept an independence declaration from its president.

This the first President who has some roots in Taiwan and there has been some discussion in their version of Congress/Parliament weather to go independent or not.

Finally, if I were the American President, I would never sell the latest weapon systems to Taiwan. The chance they would fall into PRC's hand is far greater than to be used against them. Only a foolish PRC leader could screw up the eventual peaceful unification with Taiwan.

If the transition was peaceful, then we could ask for the equipment back, If not, it would be used against the mainland.
If some hot head became First Sect. of the party look out.

As a side note, you have my condolences about what happened to your wife's family. My mother's family also suffered a great deal during that awful period. Even the current Chinese Premier sat for a couple of years in jail for being a "Rightist".

Dido. We than share something don't we.

But does that mean one should hate this country and government for an eternity? Wouldn't it be better to change it from inside out?

The Country NO, (I would love to go to China and visit) the Gov. Yes, hey I don't even trust our Gov that must. Remember I worked for them for 33 years, I know what they can do.

Deng Xiaoping had already changed the very nature of the Communist Party, and the current General Secretary is subverting its very foundation by putting entrepreneurs(capitalists) into important functions. I believe that the next generation of leadership(beginning in 2003) will start dismantling the surface facade of the "Communist" Party.

But isn't the current leader the one who had control during 1989 revolt?

[YefeiPi]

More than 50% of taiwanese (I hate to use this term rather than Chinese) are in favour of returning to mainland. Taiwanese are defeated capitalists in the mainland who escaped to the island to start their own government. Mainland is the cradle of Asian civilization, and taiwan is but a southern island of China and they are full-blooded Chinese except for some separatists who are desecendants of the Japanese.

No matter what people say or wish, Taiwan will, for a fact, rejoin its motherland and shine in its reunified glory.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

But isn't the current leader the one who had control during 1989 revolt?

No. Jiang Zemin came into power after the Tiananmen Square protests, but even then Deng Xiaoping was China's leader.

By the way joseph1944, shouldn't your tagline read "the U.S. military, the only way to fight a war and win, except when fighting Koreans, Vietnamese and Canadians."

Originally posted by YefeiPi
More than 50% of Taiwanese (I hate to use this term rather than Chinese) are in favor of returning to mainland.

You made be correct. However these people may be the children of the Chinese who invaded Taiwan with Chiang Kia-Shek.

Taiwanese are defeated capitalists in the mainland who escaped to the island to start their own government.

Escaped and Invaded at the same time, killing several Taiwanese that tried to stop the invasion

Mainland is the cradle of Asian civilization, and Taiwan is but a southern island of China and they are full-blooded Chinese except for some separatists who are descendants of the Japanese.

First sentence correct, second wrong, Taiwan is a new name for Formosa which was settle by the Polynesians, and stay that way for several century until the Dutch found the Island in early 1600s and then went to China to get slaves and bring them back to Taiwan. From 1500BC to 1600AD not a single person of China lived on the Island. Some Chinese pirate stay there from time to time so the Chinese Navy could not find them, but they never establish a settlement there.

No matter what people say or wish, Taiwan will, for a fact, rejoin its motherland and shine in its reunified glory.

That day will be a very dark day for several Million people and then the Communist gov will start to take revenge on the Taiwanese people just to teach them a lesson.

Originally posted by Tingkai

By the way joseph1944, shouldn't your tagline read "the U.S. military, the only way to fight a war and win, except when fighting Koreans, Vietnamese and Canadians."

In Korea after the Chinese invaded, neither Truman or Ike wanted to expand the war into possible WW III, so they went for the stalemate.

Vietnam; McNamara, Robert, was Johnson chief advisor and he was afraid (of China and Russia) of again widing the war so he told Johnson over and over to keep it contain in Vietnam. Johnson finely fired McNamara, but he had made his decision not run for Pres. again.
I read McNamara book two year ago and he admitted how scared he was of China and Russia. (The wrong man for the job to be sure). I do not like Mr. McNamara because he sent 53,000 young men to their death for nothing, plus one of them was a friend of mine and his name in on the wall. I belive Mr. McNamara should go to prison for being a traitor to the people he sent over. There is a story I read a while back, a plane when down in the North, so the rescue people had to call Washington to get permission because it was up north and McNamara said NO, so one of the Officer when around his back and had Johnson called, and Johnson YES go get the man. He is not a man in my book.

In 1865 we could have gone back, (we had the Army to so) however the US was satisfied with the Nation Border with Canada, so we did not. Just think if we did all of the people who left the US after the Revolution and again after the War of 1812 who were loyal to England and settle in Canada would had to move again.

Actually between you and me, I wrote that to remind some of our friends at Apolyton that the US is still here.

[KrazyHorse]

Korea was fought to tie, true, but Viet Nam was a greater failing than mere political inconsistency. It demonstrated how difficult it is for a country to impose its will on an entire region that hates them. 2 million vietnamese died in the conflict out of a total population of what, 10 million? The US would have had to rase the country to the ground to win, and then they'd have been in charge of a smoking pile of rubble.

The US tried to invade twice officially and once unofficially, and guess what: we're still here too.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Does it matter? America was not inhabited by Caucasians first and yet it is now mostly occupied by them.

Yes you are correct.
There are some Polynesian that still live there.

They are a single digit minority and would not matter much.

The Ming people still today will not use Chinese as the name of their race. The young lady I met in 63 said her family had been in Taiwan as far back as Great Grand Father and there fore call her Taiwanese.

You have encountered only one lady almost 40 years ago. I have to spoken to hundreds of Taiwanese living today. Whose statistic is more accurate. Also, that lady might still be fuming about the Chiang Kai-Chek's rule.

Who need who. It sound like China need Taiwan more than Taiwan need China

Without Taiwan, China loses some foreign investment and maybe 2-3% growth every year. With China, Taiwan will fall into a deep recession. It should be obvious to any economist who needs whom more.

This the first President who has some roots in Taiwan and there has been some discussion in their version of Congress/Parliament weather to go independent or not.

The discussion was introduced by the president's party who control about 25% of the parliament. 25% may I remind you.

If the transition was peaceful, then we could ask for the equipment back, If not, it would be used against the mainland.
If some hot head became First Sect. of the party look out.

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not, just like the West Germany got bunch of T-80s and MIG-29s from East Germany.

But isn't the current leader the one who had control during 1989 revolt?

No, all Polit Bureau members had a clean record during the 1989 massacre except for Li Peng, head of the People's Congress. The current Chinese President, Jiang Zeming, was mayor of Shanghai back then. Shanghai was the only major city in China that did not have a bloody crackdown. One mastermind of the 89 crackdown, the mayor of Beijing, was already behind bars on corruption charges.

Originally posted by Transcend

You have encountered only one lady almost 40 years ago. I have to spoken to hundreds of Taiwanese living today. Whose statistic is more accurate. Also, that lady might still be fuming about the Chiang Kai-Chek's rule.

She propley is. My wife extended family were all the Canton area.
So yes I have not talk to anyone from Taiwan for many years. I do log on to their site from time to time.

Without Taiwan, China loses some foreign investment and maybe 2-3% growth every year. With China, Taiwan will fall into a deep recession. It should be obvious to any economist who needs whom more.

With all of our Company over there. I thought we were number 1 trading partner with them.

The discussion was introduced by the president's party who control about 25% of the parliament. 25% may I remind you.

Each Election may bring in new Taiwanese and less Chinese.

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not,

As long it is junk, we won't mind.]

just like the West Germany got bunch of T-80s and MIG-29s from East Germany.

The Mig-29 was not to bad, but if Germany had some T-80s they better throw them away or use them for practice. The German has the Leopard II and that tank is a good one. In fact if we put the Leopard II and a M-1 side by side, the only real difference will be that writing on their tank will be in German and our will in English.
The German, British, and US tanks are the best in the world. I would put Israel tank there also except I believe their tank has a smaller gun.

No, all Polite Bureau members had a clean record during the 1989 massacre except for Li Peng, head of the People's Congress. The current Chinese President, Jiang Zeming, was mayor of Shanghai back then. Shanghai was the only major city in China that did not have a bloody crackdown. One mastermind of the 89 crackdown, the mayor of Beijing, was already behind bars on corruption charges.

The whole bunch should get some jail time. I just want them to be some type of Democracy, free election etc.

[K.J.H.]

It's not very kind to face the victims of maoism with a grinning Mao Tse Tsung in a computergame. Civilization III got to be fun.

I was thinking ...
Jeanne d'Arc:
-> In Civ 3 the leader
-> In real history not. Just an French army woman in the Middle Ages.
Mao Tse Tsung:
-> Bad guy. Most people want him out of Civ 3.





Confucius:
-> In real history a Chinese philosopher.
-> May be a candidate for a leader in Civ 3? Joan did it, she even wasn't a leader in real history too!

I prefer a little historical mistake more when it's fun then a historical accurate game without fun.

[ancient]

Mao Zedong did good for a mojority of the chinese people and was essential in bringing china from the ancient times to modern times. that cant be changed no matter how much you dislike him.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Simon Loverix
Don't confuse Marxism and communism/Maoism. The last two are the practical implementation of Marxism. Marxism is the actual theory, in which was never included an actual way to run an empire, only the hypothesis that the laborers IN A CAPITALIST ECONOMY(not in absolutist, non-industrialized lands like China and Russia) would revolt and overthrow the government. Marx never was clear about what was to do AFTER the revolution. .

Just to point out that there were others (Kautsky, Bernstein etc) who had VERY different ideas from Lenin about how marxism should be implemented. I would think you folks who come from countries with active Social Democratic parties that were for a long time run by anti-communist Marxists would know that.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Transcend
eternity? Wouldn't it be better to change it from inside out? Deng Xiaoping had already changed the very nature of the Communist Party, and the current General Secretary is subverting its very foundation by putting entrepreneurs(capitalists) into important functions. I believe that the next generation of leadership(beginning in 2003) will start dismantling the surface facade of the "Communist" Party.

Then maybe Deng should be the Chinese leader, rather than Mao. Of course Deng was no Gorbachev (who BTW, would make a cool Russian leader)


LOTM

[ancient]

gorbechev is evil incarnate

[YefeiPi]

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not,


As long it is junk, we won't mind.

Haha, they are junk? you wouldn't say they are junk when they are used to take over Taiwan You are one of those hated Taiwanese separatists that I'm talking about, oh well, your resistance is futile, Taiwan will soon rejoin the motherland in glory while you chew your thumb in some dark corner and the rest of Taiwan are celebrating coming home.


Mao Zedong, despite mistakes he made in his life, he is one of the greatest leader who ever walked on planet Earth. My grandfather was a dedicated communist but was imprisoned during the culture revolution because of falsely accused crimes. He just stayed in jail for a couple of years and still respected Mao when he came out not because he was forced, but because Mao is truly a great leader. People can call him brainwasher or inhuman monster, it may be true to some, but to others he is nothing but a most powerful man who restored glory and a sense of national pride to China.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by ancient
Mao isnt that bad, sure he did do bad things but nothing bad enough to outway what good he did.. china was a mess now it isnt quite as much of a mess, howd they get there? staring with mao...

Arguably china in 1969, at the end of the cultural revolution was more of a mess than at any time since 1945. china is less of a mess largely because of Deng and others who have left maoism behind, while paying Mao lip service.

LOTM

Originally posted by YefeiPi

Haha, they are junk? you wouldn't say they are junk when they are used to take over Taiwan You are one of those hated Taiwanese separatists that I'm talking about, oh well, your resistance is futile, Taiwan will soon rejoin the motherland in glory while you chew your thumb in some dark corner and the rest of Taiwan are celebrating coming home.

The difference between you and me is that I actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people.
You must be very unhappy with your family for leaving China. You can still go back when you become an adult.

[YefeiPi]

You bet I will go back when I'm older. Also what do you mean you actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people, Hong Kong returned to China and is it doing badly? Hell no. You are just one of those few people who likes separation, anyway that's your opinion and I won't offend it but you know Taiwan will rejoin the motherland for the better whether some people like it or not. Why do people think it will bad? It will be better for Taiwan and the people there, do you know how many old retired Taiwanese whose roots were in mainland longs for home?

Originally posted by YefeiPi
You bet I will go back when I'm older. Also what do you mean you actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people, Hong Kong returned to China and is it doing badly? Hell no. You are just one of those few people who likes separation, anyway that's your opinion and I won't offend it but you know Taiwan will rejoin the motherland for the better whether some people like it or not. Why do people think it will bad? It will be better for Taiwan and the people there, do you know how many old retired Taiwanese whose roots were in mainland longs for home?

225 years ago a bunch of Englishman stood up and told England we want to be free. We will not let you run our country from Europe. We had to fight to be free, but we did it and now we are our own country.
Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan. I belived the only reason China today claims Taiwan is because Chiang inturn claimed China. The Taiwan Gov today is still mosley the Chinese that came with Chiang or their family. Wait until there are more Taiwanese than Chinese in the Gov and see if they want to be part of China.
Another thing I do not understand is that you now live in Canada.
In Canada you are free to do what every you want as long as no law are broken. Free to go anywhere you want with out permission of the Gov. Go to any school, work at any job you chose, make a lot of money, free to say anything you want except Kill the P.M., but then you want to go back to a dictatorship country Why?

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944
Taiwan is a new name for Formosa which was settle by the Polynesians, and stay that way for several century until the Dutch found the Island in early 1600s and then went to China to get slaves and bring them back to Taiwan. From 1500BC to 1600AD not a single person of China lived on the Island. Some Chinese pirate stay there from time to time so the Chinese Navy could not find them, but they never establish a settlement there.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Originally posted by joseph1944
Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan.

Sorry but I believe you should study some more history b4 making such statements. The first people from the mainland migrated to Taiwan as early as the AD 500's. Taiwan first came under control of a government from the mainland at least as early as about 600AD during the Sui dynasty, when Emperor Yang Guang conquered the island (it was called Yi Zhou back then).

The Dutch came only in 1624 and was only in control of a port in Taiwan. They were drove out after only 37 years (1664) by Zheng Cheng Gong, a general loyal to the Ming dynasty. He crossed the strait from Xiamen in an attempt to establish a base for the resistance against the Manchu's who had established the Qing dynasty. (Rather similar to the situation in 1949 with the Manchus as Communists and the Ming loyalists as Nationalists). Large settlements occurred during around the same time (1600's) but not bcos the few Dutch in control of a small port was able to kidnap enough people from the mainland, but bcos people were fleeing the corrupt and harsh rule by the last Ming Emperors and later the fear of Manchu rule. In 1683, the Qing dynasty conquered Taiwan from the mainland and administered it as part of China. This rule was not disturbed (for 212 years) until 1895 when it was ceded to Japan.

Qing control of Taiwan is not questionable. During the First Opium War English forces invaded Qing bases in Taiwan. In 1874 conflicts arose between fishermen from Taiwan and fishermen from Okinawa. Japan intervened by attacking Taiwan. Qing then signed agreements with Japan where Okinawa was given to Japan and Japan had to completely retreat from Taiwan. During the Sino-French War (1884) Taiwan was again attacked by the French. The terms in the treaty signed in Tianjin which ended the War included the withdrawal of French forces from Taiwan.

This would give you some facts to base your opinions on.

Originally posted by joseph1944
In Canada you are free to do what every you want as long as no law are broken.... but then you want to go back to a dictatorship country Why?

All I can see in your comments is American arrogance and ignorance. People are free to choose to do whatever they want in a democracy as long as no law is broken so why shouldn't they choose to hate a democracy? or choose to live under a dictatorship? Your ideas are reminiscent of McCarthyism.

Originally posted by joseph1944
The difference between you and me is that I actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people.

This is exactly what the US said when they went to war in Vietnam. And yet could they stop the will of the Vietnamnese people? Do you think the US is right to impose what they think the welfare is for the Vietnamese and the Taiwanese? As long as more people favour reunion in Taiwan now, I don't think any of us is in a position to judge whether Taiwan should rejoin the mainland.

I think we have gone enough off topic. BTW, what does everyone think the special unit for the Chinese should be???

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944
With all of our Company over there. I thought we were number 1 trading partner with them.

No Mainland China is the largest trading partner of Taiwan, although indirectly through Hong Kong and other countries.

Each Election may bring in new Taiwanese and less Chinese.

You seem to live under the misconception that native born Taiwanese refused to identify themselves as Chinese. The truth couldn't be more different. Taiwan's population today is already 85% native born, and yet only 15% of them refused to be seen as Chinese. And only the same amount of people wanted full independence. It's a fact that that Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese by an overwhelming majority(80%+), a higher percentage than the Scots supporting the continued exitence of United Kingdom. With Mainland China growing stronger each year, more and more Taiwanese, who refused to be a Chinese because China is poor and weak, will rethink of their attitudes.

You probably have been too heavily influenced by the US propandas, both in media and literature(Tom Clancy comes to mind). They put too way much emphasis in parsing the word "Chinese' and "Taiwanese". You better learn Chinese first and understand how Taiwanese and Mainlanders refer to each other.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Then maybe Deng should be the Chinese leader, rather than Mao. Of course Deng was no Gorbachev (who BTW, would make a cool Russian leader)


LOTM

No, and I'm also against putting too recent leaders as the representative of a civilization. It's too soon to reach a verdict on Mao and Deng today. Maybe in a few hundred years everything will be clearer. A good example was provided by the case of the First Chinese Emperor, Shi-Huang-Di. Decades after his death, he was condemned by the historians as the most evil man China had seen. His policy and tyranny had caused millions(1/3 China's population, much higher than Mao's damage) in an ensuing civil war. But after a few hundred years, he became more and more appreciated and respected. The same could be said for Mao, but again not. As I wrote before, it's simply too early to reach a verdict for Mao.