If not Mao, who?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The difference between you and me is that I actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people.

If you really cared for the Taiwanese people than you would not advocate a policy of independence. Such a policy only leads to war, death and destruction. This is why the American government supports the peaceful re-unification of China.

If a Taiwanese government foolishly declared independence, the Mainland government would react with force, either blockage of missile bombardment. That would lead to a war that neither side can win.

If the Americans go to the aid of Taiwan, then the entire world face the risk of war between two powers armed with ICBMs.

The best solution for Taiwan is reunification along the lines of Hong Kong. A federal system, like the one the Iroquois first developed. But that's another thread.

http://www.leksu.com/ If you want to read about Taiwan go here.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944
From 1500BC to 1600AD not a single person of China lived on the Island.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Originally posted by joseph1944
Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan.

Even disregarding some obvious bias within that site you provided, I cannot find where your statements above are founded. In fact there were statements which suggests very much the contrary and supports what I said before.

Quote from the FAQ section of the site:

"...the Hakka people immigrated from south China near Hong Kong. By the year 1000 A.D. there were a large number of Hakka communities in western Taiwan. They engaged in fishing, farming and trading." (my emphasis added)

"The Fukien Taiwanese who came from China's Fukien Province across the Taiwan Strait began to settle in Taiwan nearly a thousand years ago, but most migrated in the fouteenth through the severteenth centuries."

Doesn't this refute the first 2 statements I quoted from you? Doesn't it suggest that your two statements are completely false?
As for the 3rd statement i quoted from you, it's even more obvious from that site that the Qing dynasty did claim and control Taiwan.

Here read some for yourself.

Chapter 1 The Great Voyages
At the end of the fifteenth century, Christopher Columbus discovered the New World (1492), and a few years later (1498), Portuguese navigator Vasco da Gama opened the sea route between Europe and India by way of the Cape of Good Hope. It was the era of the great voyages, and from a European historic viewpoint, a period of "great discoveries".
Portugal was the first European power to invade Asia. In 1510, they captured Goa of India, destroyed the kingdom of Malacca, and by having control of the Strait of Malacca, the Portuguese expanded their influences towards the southeast and northeast Asia. Moving north in an endeavour to trade with China and Japan, they occupied Macao in 1537.
In 1544, a Portuguese fleet sailing through the Taiwan Strait on the way to Japan sighted Taiwan and called it Ilha Formosa, meaning "Beautiful Island." This is the origin of Taiwan's other name, Formosa. However, whenever they came across a beautiful island on the sea, Portuguese sailors had the habit of calling it "Ilha Formosa", so there are more than ten islands in Africa, South America and Asia which bear the same name. Nevertheless, Formosa has become the proper name of Taiwan, and is now commonly used among Westerners.

During the period when Western European powers were moving eastward, the Chinese and Japanese pirates knowned as Wo-k'ou , who had plundered the Chinese southeastern coast, used Taiwan as a base or hideout for geographical reason. When chased by the government forces, these pirates would flee first to Penghu (Pescadores) Islands, and then to Taiwan. Government forces might chase the pirates to Penghu, but would never persue them to Taiwan. In the sixteenth century, the Ming government (being unfamiliar with Taiwan) regarded Taowam as a dreadful, barbaric region spread with pestilences.
In the middle of the sixteenth century, there were only a small number of Han immigrants and Malayo-Polynesian aborigines who had dwelt on Taiwan for many thousands of years. Although presently these aborigines have become minority, they were once the major inhabitants spread over the entire island. All the aborigines are Malayo-Polynesian, however, they do not belong to same race. Beside the nine tribes of Atayal, Saisiyat, Tsou, Bunun, Rukai, Paiwan, Ami, Puyuma, Yami, there are Ketagalan, Luilang, Kavalan, Taokas, Pazeh Papora, Babuza, Hoanya, and Siraya, who are commonly called the "flatland aborigines".
These aborigines have their different languages and customs, and constitute unique independent societies. From their different languages, customs and dwellings, one can imagine that they migrated from different places during different periods of time. The flatland aborigines were assimilated by Han settlers through inter-marriage, and are now almost indistinguishable from Han people. Because the aborigines were divided into so many racial groups, they have not been able to establish a united kingdom, and have been overwhelmed by foreign invaders and consequently hve become the minority.
The Origin of Taiwan
All the aborigines, with the exception of the "flatland aborigines", were gradually squeezed and forced to move towards the mountains, and eventually became the "mountainers". TheYami tribe that lived on the isolated island of Lanyu are the only aborigines still retaining the lifestyle of an oceanic race. While these "Mountainer" aborigines were called "Takasago" by Japanese during their occupation; the name was changed to "Gao-San-Zu" (mountain tribes) by the KMT regime of the Republic of China after the World War II.
Be it "Takasago" or "Gao-San-Zu", these names were given by the Japanese and Chinese, and are definitely not what the aborigines call themselves. Fundamentally, it is in contempt of the aborigines seeing them as uncivilized savages. Moreover, all the foreign invaders who ruled Taiwan have under the pretense of "Savage Administrative Policy" segregated the aborigines from the Han immigrants by adopting the "divide and rule" scheme, deliverately creating the impression that the aborigines were "untamed savages".
In fact, Malayo-Polynesians, who are widespread among Southeast Asian islands today, have become the primary races of the countries such as Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo, etc., and are very proud of their cultures and traditions. On the other hand, the aborigines in Taiwan have, since the era of the great voyages, been continuously oppressed and isolated from the modern civilization, and consequently have not been able to develop and refine their unique traditional cultures. Above all, they have been driven out of the flatlands to remote and mountainous regions.
"Taioan" did not originate from Han language. The Siraya aborigines who dwelled in the vicinity of Tainan called outsiders and visitors "Taian" or "Tayan", and it had been misheard as "Taioan". Han immigrants and Japanese had applied different Han characters and Kanji, which became the name of the island itself. Between the years 1573 and 1620, Ming government began calling the island "Taiwan", and the Dutch also used "Taioan" in their writings.
You can see from the origin of the name that, to the aborigines, the outsiders were just some visitors "passing by". The aborigines never realized that the "passers-by" would become masters of the island, and treat them as "uncivilized savages", the objects of "Savage Administrative Policy". In this respect, there is a close resembrance to the fates of the Indians and Indeos in North American continent.

The Dutch, who fell one step behind the Portuguese and the Spanish in invasions, arrived at Jakarta, Indonesia ("Batavia" as called by the Dutch) in 1596. In 1602, the Dutch formed the first stock company in human history called the "Dutch East India Company". With headquarters in Amsterdam, the Company was chartered for monopolized trade as well as managing newly acquired colonies. After establishing a foothold in Batavia, the Dutch planned immediately to trade with China and Japan, and began searching for a midway base. In 1603, the Dutch fleet sailed toward the Pescadores of Taiwan Straits, and landed on the main island Penghu. This was the first time that Western European power ever set foot on the land of Taiwan.
During theYuan Dynasty, the Mongol government had a garrison stationed at Penghu Island, but in 1388, the Ming government abolished the garrison station and abandoned the Pescadores. Having heard the arrival of Dutch fleet, the Ming government immediately sent troops to Penghu and expelled the Dutch from the island. After failing to occupy Penghu, the Dutch tried to wrest Macao from the Portuguese, but also failed. In July 1622, the Dutch made another attempt on Penghu Island and finally succeeded in occupying it.
After landing on P'enghu Island, the Dutch mobilized the residents and fishermen in the harbor to build a fortress in Makung, and a trade base linking Batavia, Makung, China and Japan was established. The Dutch started to use this base to control traffic on the Taiwan Strait and to harass Portuguese vessels travelling to and from Japan. The Ming government, as a countermeasure, issued a decree in September 1623 banning all ships from approaching southeast coast of China.
In January 1624, Ming forces attacked the Dutch on Penghu Island, and after warring for eight months, the Dutch signed a treaty with the Ming who gave the Dutch posts on Taiwan and other rights in exchange for withdrawing from Pescadores. It was a pleasant surprise to the Dutch, for even if they decided to defend Penghu they were no match against the towering Ming forces. Not only wasTaiwan a much bigger island than Penghu, it was also located in a strategic point of the trade route in East Asia, making it possible to monopolize trade with China and Japan. So, the Dutch immediately signed the peace treaty, and moved their fleet to Taiwan after destroying the fortress and military facilities on Penghu Island.
The Ming government agreed so easily to let the Dutch take over Taiwan, simply because China had never looked upon this island as its own territory.


Chapter 2 The Dutch Era

After retreating from Penghu island, the Dutch fleet sailed towards Taiwan, and on Aug. 26, 1624 landed in southern Taiwan, near the present-day city of Tainan. Through governor of Batavia, a Taiwan governor was appointed by the Dutch East India Company. Different from the heads of the Dutch trading houses, the governor of Taiwan was not only the trading boss, but also the administrator of the colony.
Immediately after landing on Taiwan, the Dutch started to build Fort Zeelandia at present-day An-ping, which took eight years to complete. In 1625, construction of Fort Providentia (present-day Chih-Kan-Lou) was also started. Both forts were military fortresses, however, Fort Zeelandia was used more for trading, and Fort Providentia was used as living quarters and warehouse.
Compared with the Ming Dynasty, the Dutch were more conscious of the value of Taiwan: it was not only an ideal trading base, the land was also fertile and abundant in products. From the beginning, the Dutch had shown profound interest in developing Taiwan as a colonial enterprise. During the thirty-eight years of Dutch rule, the total number of Dutch personnel assigned to Taiwan was less than two thousands; half were soldiers. Right from the first day, the Dutch had been prepared for resistance from aborigines and Chinese immigrants as well as attacks by the Portugues, the Spanish and the English. Cannons set up in the fortresses were not just aimed at invaders from the sea, but also at local residents. Surprisingly, the aborigines and the immigrants did not resist the Dutch occupation, but rather helped them build their fortresses. They did not realize that these fortresses were later to be used as means of their own oppression.

The first problem the Dutch faced upon landing, was how to deal with the problem of aborigines. In those days, although aborigines were not familiar with the concept of "territorial rights", but they were conscious that it was the land where they were born and grew up in. Japanese and Chinese pirates, who invaded Taiwan and used it as a "den", had never claimed Taiwan as their "territory", hence there was no master-slave relationship. Now that the Dutch dominated this land, and aborigines lost the freedom they had enjoyed before. Certainly they would uprise and resist. In order to cope this problem, the Dutch "enlightened" the aborigines with Christian religion, and used force in suppressing the stiff-necks. More than ten years passed before the Dutch finally had full control of the aborigines.
Soon after the construction of Fort Providentia began, Rev. Judinius was sent to Taiwan from Batavia in 1627, and many other missionaries followed him in the endeavour of preaching to the aborigines. These missionaries not only propagated Christian belief in Taiwan, but also mitigated the resistance of aborigines, and at the same time, provided an opportunity for Taiwan to come in contact with European civilization. In order to preach the gospel, the missionaries romanized the languages of the aborigines to print the Bible, thus leaving various traces of cultural history behind. One example was the "Shin-kang Document", a land contract exchanged between immigrants and the Sirayas who lived in Shin-kang near Tainan. The Shin-kang Document which was written in romanized aboriginal language has become valuable historical material for studying the customs of the past.
The Dutch East India Company gained great profits from trans-shipping trade in Taiwan: Southeast Asian products such as spices, tin, amber, cotton, opium, etc. were transported from Batavia; silver was imported from Japan; silk, fine chinas, herbal medicines and gold were imported from China; sugar and deer skin were exported exported from Taiwan to Japan; and besides sugar and jerked deer meat, Southeast Asian products were also exported to China. In addition, silk, fine chinas and gold were exported from Taiwan to Amsterdam through Batavia. Ther profits obtained from the multilateral trade were tremendously high.
Since the Dutch took over Taiwan, the pirates infesting the island had greatly decreased, especially in the areas under Dutch control. However, the vessels on the open sea were often attacked by pirates. In order to ensure safe transportation on the sea, the Dutch concluded an agreement with the powerful pirate chief, Cheng Zhi-long. It is interesting to know that the secret of the Dutch's success in trans-shipping trade was by obtaining the cooperation from Chinese pirates.
From the fact that deer skins and meats, and sugar were main export products from Taiwan, one can see that Taiwan in the old days was the habitat of deers and sugar canes. The Dutch encouraged aborigines and immigrants to hunt for deer, taxed hunting equipments, and obtained enormous profits from trading deer products. It was reckless plunder. Herds of deer became nearly extinct in Taiwan, mainly because of indiscriminate hunting by the Dutch. From the beginning, the Dutch rulers controlled and exploited Taiwan with the same political and economic systems which was colonialist pattern of seizing and ruling under the mercantilism. Not only heavy taxes were levied on all production and consumption, but head taxes were also collected from newly arrived Chinese immigrants. This only promoted resistance from aborigines and immigrants.

Dutch East India Company gained exclusive rights to commercial ventures in Taiwan and ruled Taiwan as a colonial enterprise. The Company leased land and agricultural tools to the peasants and introduced oxen to till rice fields. The Dutch dug wells, conducted land surveys, intruduced cash crops such as sugar, and romanized aboriginal languages.
While the Dutch obtained excessive profits from transshipping merchandise, they also made considerable efforts in agricultural development. All lands were seized and owned by the Dutch monarch (hence the name "King's Field"), and were managed by Dutch West India Company. Lands were then leased to Han pioneer farmers from whom 5 to10% rent or taxes, called "king's field rent contributions," were collected. Incidentally, the land measuring unit of "jia" (9700 square meters), which was used in Dutch era, has been carried over to this date.
The Company leased agricultural land and tools to peasants and introduced oxen to till rice fields, and at the same time, dug wells, conducted land surveys, and protected farmers from aborigines' attacks. However, the Dutch provided protection and supports to immigrants not out of charity, but simply in order to obtain higher profits for the Company. The Dutch not only improved the breeding of plants, but also introduced new crops such as cabbage, bean, tomato, mango and chilipepper, which became popular produce today. The Dutch opened two breeding farms, raising oxen imported from India, and by replacing human labour, productivity was increased remarkably. As a result of the agricultural developments, production of rice was not only self-sufficient, but also had surplus for export.
The development of the sugar industry is something worth mentioning. As climate in southern Taiwan was suitable for growing sugar canes, sugar was produced and exported even before the Dutch gained control of Taiwan. However, the Dutch, who realized the profitability, established sugar cane plantations in an endeavour to increase production and promote sugar as the major export industry. Since then and for about three centuries, the sugar industry has continued to hold an important position in Taiwan export.

The Dutch were not the only western power which wanted Taiwan as a base for trans-shiping trade. The Spanish, who already controlled the Philippines, also intended to expand their power to Taiwan to ensure the security of the Philippines and to prevent the Dutch from monopolizing trade with China and Japan. On May 5, 1626, a Spanish fleet, detoured eastern Taiwan coast in order to avoid clashing with the Dutch, reached the northeast tip of Taiwan and named it the Cape of San Diago. Next day, Spanish forces seized the port of Keelung and established control down the west coast a short distance from Tamsui. Forts San Salvador and San Domingo were built in Keelung and Tamsui respectively. In the following year the Dutch sent a fleet to the north trying to drive the Spanish away, but was defeated. At that time, the Dutch had devoted their efforts in developing southern Taiwan, and was incapable of stopping the Spanish from taking over northern Taiwan.

Although the Spanish successfully controlled northern Taiwan, neither trade with China and Japan, nor the propagation of Catholicism in Japan went smoothly. Moreover, supplies from Manila was often obstructed by typhoons and more than half of the limited number of personnel succumbed to either by aborigine attack or epidemics such as malaria. The Spanish plan of controlling Taiwan was severely hampered, and in 1638, the Spanish withdrew after destroying Fort San Domingo in Tamsui. What they left in Taiwan was a small defensive system and an advanced base for trade. Seeing the Spanish forces in northern Taiwan weakened, the Dutch fleet moved northward in the summer of 1642, and took Keelung, putting an end to the Spanish control of northern Taiwan. With the withdrawal of the Spanish forces, Dutch control over Taiwan spread from south to the north.
The period of Spanish rule in Taiwan was short, but they brought new immigrants from China to work with aborigines in pioneering projects, such as mining of sulphor in Peitou. In the effort of propagating Catholicism to residents, the Spanish edited a "Tamsui Dictionary", and together with missionary's medical service in treatment of malaria, teaching of western medical science, etc. had left significant impact in the cultural history of Taiwan, just like the Dutch who propagated Christianity in the south.

Colonial rule by force undoubtedly would incur resistance from people who are subjected to it. During the Dutch's era, resistance and uprisings frequently happened; in which "Ma-tau Incident"(1635) and "Hsiao-liong Incident" (1636) resulted in massacre of large numbers of aborigines. After these incidents, the Dutch forced aborigines to show their obedience by holding a "ceremony of obedience". A similar ceremony was later utilized by the Japanese as a scheme to deal with Taiwanese residents.
The Dutch were in need of labour for developing Taiwan, so they imported great numbers of immigrants from China, not only enslaving them, but also taxing them heavily. The hatred and anger towards the Dutch by the immigrants multiplied year after year, and finally developed into an armed uprising headed by Kue Huai-yit. This incident was inevitable because there was a limit to the immigrants' tolerance under the hard-hearted rule of the Dutch.

[Sun Zi 36]

Yes I read it already. Where does it suggest that:

Originally posted by joseph1944
From 1500BC to 1600AD not a single person of China lived on the Island.

Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan.

??? Whereas I found in the same site the contrary facts?

[El hidalgo]

I find it incredible as well as depressing that there are people who don't realize that Mao was one of the 2 biggest murderers in history. Yes, the final word on Mao is not yet in, but it is impossible that history will exonorate him. The record of his atrocities is simply too clear. There are better choices for the game. Someone said someone else's description of some of Mao's actions sounds like Pol Pot. Yes it does:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/econo...mfaq.htm#part7

Mao's most famous executions were not his most numerous. In the so-called Cultural Revolution, Mao ordered massive purges of the Chinese Communist Party and of educated professionals. After Mao's fall, purge survivors such as Deng Xioaping seized power and ultimately exposed this crime to the world. About one million Party members and intellectuals were killed during Mao's Cultural Revolution - many by execution, others in the camps. Overall, however, Mao's killing actually declined during the Cultural Revolution. During earlier periods, millions of landlords, better-off peasants, dissidents, former Nationalist civil servants, and other "counter-revolutionaries" were executed. Numerical estimates are difficult to make, but probably add up to about 10-15 million.

http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1993/9/19-2_4.html

Torture, death sentences imposed for non-offences or trivial crimes, a
contemptibly inadequate justice system, the suppression of religion and
dissent, political prisoners held in unspeakable conditions in strings of
labour camps, and the continued programme of murder and cultural destruction
in Tibet are all substantially documented. However, secrecy makes the precise
scale of these horrors uncertain; we merely know enough to be sure that we know
only very little. Tiananmen Square was a rare mistake - cameras and Kate Adie
are not usually present when the Chinese authorities carry out their duties.


Such a record makes it clear that despite yesterday's stunt of releasing the
dissident Wei Jingsheng after a 14-year prison term, the present government is
implicated in the horrors of the whole priod since Mao Tse-tung's revolution.
Mao remains the godfather of the Chinese regime and his psychopathic brutality
towards his own people persists in the minds of the men who now rule China.

These men, let it never be forgotten, think, among other things, that it is
reasonable to charge the families of people executed for stealing a bicycle for
the bullet used; or to employ hooks to yank out the tongues of Tibetan
dissidents lest they cry out "Long live the Dalai Lama!" just before they are
publicly executed.

The full post-war history of China has not yet been written, but it is possible
that in the combination of the Chinese Communist Party and the People's
Liberation Army we have, in simple numerical terms, the vilest organisation
ever created by man. The record of slaughter certainly dwarfs anything achieved
by the Nazis and may well improve even on Stalin's closing score.

[Transcend]

It's really ironic that most Mao supporters are Chinese or their descendents who may have suffered under him, while most Mao haters are foreigners who had never suffered under him.

I'm also questioning some people's assertion that Mao should not be included as the Chinese because he killed MANY. Well, that can be said for any "great" leaders such as Alexander, Caesar, Ghengis Khan, Tamerlane, Catherine of Russia, Oliver Cromwell, Edward III of England, Charles V of Spain, Louis XIV of France, and many many others. Even Vlad the Impaler, who enjoyed his lunch in front of 20,000 cruelly impaled villagers, is a celebrated national hero in Romania. Somehow people forgot to apply the same moral standard to these people while they passionately hated Mao, Stalin, and Hitler.

El Hidalgo, by your reasoning, the majority of the leaders included in Civ3 should be replaced by someone else.

[K.J.H.]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Transcend
I'm also questioning some people's assertion that Mao should not be included as the Chinese because he killed MANY. Well, that can be said for any "great" leaders such as Alexander, Caesar, Ghengis Khan, Tamerlane, Catherine of Russia, Oliver Cromwell, Edward III of England, Charles V of Spain, Louis XIV of France, and many many others. Even Vlad the Impaler, who enjoyed his lunch in front of 20,000 cruelly impaled villagers, is a celebrated national hero in Romania. Somehow people forgot to apply the same moral standard to these people while they passionately hated Mao, Stalin, and Hitler. [QUOTE]


You are right, but do you think people in the 20th century are getting nervous and scared because they see the face of Julius Caesar?
There are still Mao-, Stalin-, and Hitler-victims walking around on this planet. And even supporters of these terrible governments (like neonazis) still worship these dictators. Changing the German leader into Hitler, makes a very long queue of civ-3-wanting racist skinheads in the recordshop where I'll buy my civ 3 game.

Originally posted by Tingkai


If you really cared for the Taiwanese people than you would not advocate a policy of independence. Such a policy only leads to war, death and destruction. This is why the American government supports the peaceful re-unification of China.

If a Taiwanese government foolishly declared independence, the Mainland government would react with force, either blockage of missile bombardment. That would lead to a war that neither side can win.

1950 North Korea wanted to conquer South Korea, it lead to war.
1960 North Vietnam wanted to conquer South Vietnam, it lead to war. And they did after the US left South Vietnam, and they kill thousand.
1776 the Colonies (US) wanted to be free from England, it lead to war.
400 to 500 AD. England, France, Spain, South Germany wanted to free of Rome, it lead to war.
??? France wanted to free of England, it lead to war.
East Timor no longer wants to part of Indonesia, there is war.
China invaded Tibet, kill thousand.
Iraq wanted Kuwait, it lead to war.
Israel wanted to be free, it lead to war.
China want Taiwan, it can lead to war. If you want to be free, you have to fight for it. You are right thousand will be kill, either fighting for freedom or after the Communists take over and punish them. Either way they will died.
When George W. Bush was running for Pres. I wrote and ask him to help Taiwan. I'm free and I want them to remain free.
Tingkai, sometime you must fight, and sometime you can walk away. I don't believe Taiwan can walk away without a fight if they want to be free and remain free.
Scotland wanted to be free of England and to this day England has never conquer Scotland.

[Transcend]

Joseph1944, explain this: why is Taiwan not free after an unification with China? Didn't the Confederate States of America want freedom back then? And what about Native Americans, the ones you killed and their land you stole? Why can US squash rebellions and conquer new lands while China can not? It seems that your are nothing more but a hypocrite, hiding the US national interests(money and power) behind the propaganda of human rights and freedom, and applying moral double standards for the US and rest of the world.

[lupusmalus]

Hell, in international politics power and national interest are everything, morality is nothing, and double standards are applied by everyone, you just can't say that anymore nowadays. It's perfectly clear why the Chinese want Taiwan back and almost everyone else doesn't - their country is big enough already - and the fact that nationalism has become a major if not the main prop of the "communist" regime is highly important as well. And having read this thread I unfortunately consider it a bit more likely that the US and China will come to blows at some point, two countries which each consider themselves to be the centre of the world must find it difficult to coexist. The whole situation of a rising nation being anxiously watched by its neighbours while it itself believes that it is being denied its rightful place by the established powers fatally reminds me of Europe pre-1914. Why don't you guys just play Civ against each other and vent your respective grudges there?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

You are right thousand will be kill, either fighting for freedom or after the Communists take over and punish them. Either way they will died.
When George W. Bush was running for Pres. I wrote and ask him to help Taiwan. I'm free and I want them to remain free.
Tingkai, sometime you must fight, and sometime you can walk away. I don't believe Taiwan can walk away without a fight if they want to be free and remain free.
Scotland wanted to be free of England and to this day England has never conquer Scotland.

You overlook the obvious. Hong Kong has retained its freedom even though it is now part of China. The same can be done for Taiwan. One country, two systems.

Contrary to what you wrote, historians would say that the English most certainly did conquer Scotland.

The Scots are now gaining more political power through a peaceful process.

Canada obtained its independence without having to fight Britain.

I agree that fighting for freedom is sometimes necessary. The Vietnamese had no choice but to fight against the French and the Americans to gain their freedom. Millions of people died because of American support for the French, and later, the military dictators in the south.

But violence is not always required. There is often a peaceful alternative. For every Mandala, there is a Ghandi.

War is the first choice of the foolish, the last choice of the wise.

Originally posted by Transcend
Joseph1944, explain this: why is Taiwan not free after an unification with China? Didn't the Confederate States of America want freedom back then? And what about Native Americans, the ones you killed and their land you stole? Why can US squash rebellions and conquer new lands while China can not? It seems that your are nothing more but a hypocrite, hiding the US national interests(money and power) behind the propaganda of human rights and freedom, and applying moral double standards for the US and rest of the world.

The Confederate wanted State Right to be above the Nation Right and they wanted to keep Slavery. The Union did not want the Nation to be divided. After the war was started, Lincoln decided to free the Slaves. No one alive in America today kill an Indian. One of my Great-Great-Grand Mother was Indians. And you; here you are living in Co. have full advantage of the US and yet you want the people living in Taiwan to live under Communism when maybe they don't have to.

[Tingkai]

To El hidalgo:

In your last message, five of the six paragraphs were copied from another website. I don't think it is necessary to cut and paste large amounts of text when you can just provide a link. All of that text just takes up space.

As for the links you provided, the information is rather tainted and hardly objective. The stuff from the free Tibet site is just a rant. The stuff from the econ professor is interesting, although I'm not convinced it is true. The guy sounds like he has an axe to grind. Nonetheless, his stuff is worth thinking about.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944
I don't believe Taiwan can walk away without a fight if they want to be free and remain free.

THE MAJORITY OF TAIWAN PEOPLE DON'T WANT INDEPENDENCE. They don't want to be free. And there is no logical reason by historical analysis that they would want to be free either. I have shown that in my last few posts. It seems it is u who wants them to be free without any logical basis out of bias against communist China. I see no reason why, just bcos mainland China is communist, Chinese people who identifies with each other are not entitled to come under one nation.

As Tingkai pointed out, Taiwan doesn't even have to come under communism if they don't want to. Even the mainland leaders agreed the terms for unification with Taiwan can be more loose than with Hong Kong.


As for Mao, I think there are feasible substitutes, like Sun Wen. whose image is definitely not controversal. People in Hong Kong and Taiwan calls Sun Wen "father of the nation", although obviously this won't be in the mainland.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The Confederate wanted State Right to be above the Nation Right and they wanted to keep Slavery. The Union did not want the Nation to be divided. After the war was started, Lincoln decided to free the Slaves. No one alive in America today kill an Indian. One of my Great-Great-Grand Mother was Indians. And you; here you are living in Co. have full advantage of the US and yet you want the people living in Taiwan to live under Communism when maybe they don't have to.

What's wrong with China wanting to keep its integrity? If Taiwan and China join, benefits for both countries would be immense: greater market, more trade and technology exchange, and the cooperation between their military would allow them control of resource-rich South China Sea. Would Taiwan lose freedom? No. Just like Hong Kong, they would still be able to organize virgils for the June 4th victims.

The argument that no living Americans has killed an Indian is a pathetic one. 99.9% of Germans living today has not killed Jews, either, and yet Germany is still responsible for the victims's descendents. The only difference between these two genocides is that America won out in the end and Germany lost. This example perfectly illustrate the true nature of world politics and history: the WINNER gets all. Power is everything and moral values such as human righs and freedom only a propaganda tool.

Let me tell you why it is bad for America if China unites with Taiwan:
1. With Taiwan gone, the US would have fewer means to enforce favorable trade terms and its cultural values on China.

2. Taiwan will benefit China's current condition greatly, making China's rapid ascendence to world power even faster. China has the potential to become a competitor to the US, and the US does not want to see any serious competitor in the world.

3. By resolving the Taiwan problem, China can turn its attention to consolidate in South China Sea. Potential conflicts could errupt among involved countries. War is bad business, and the US might be drawn into another involuntary conflict.

The above three points are what US politicians really care about. They merely use the beautiful words like "human rights" and "freedom" fool everyday citizens such as you.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36


As for Mao, I think there are feasible substitutes, like Sun Wen. whose image is definitely not controversal. People in Hong Kong and Taiwan calls Sun Wen "father of the nation", although obviously this won't be in the mainland.

Actually both Mainland and Taiwan claim to have the true heritage of Sunwen and otherside to be the betrayer.

[lupusmalus]

Hmmmm, I think I have to amend my earlier statement a bit with respect to the US, I actually think the US decision-makers do care about the liberal values they propound, but they certainly never let them get into the way of national interest. The beauty of it is that in their view they never do because the US sees itself to have a "mission" to bring its superior way of things to the world, so what's good for the US is also good for the dissemination of these values and for the world at large. Thus, Taiwan falling to China would be a setback for both US interests and for the US mission. Conversely, in my view China still sees itself pretty much as the "Middle Kingdom" along the lines of the emperors who regarded the first western embassies as "tribute-bearers". Neither attitude is very helpful in finding mutually satisfactory solutions to outstanding issues.

And yep, after the acquisition of Taiwan the South China Sea would be the next step. And would China be saturated then? What, with all the territory north of her borders which Russia defrauded her of in the 19th century? No offence intended, but it all reminds me a bit of Hitler's salami tactics. And the US could hardly stomach a rival great power getting astride the important sea routes in the South China Sea, they have long held the view that to keep the international sea lanes open for the dissemination of US goods (and ideology) is a vital interest. Apart from the fact that these particular routes are even more vital to Japan's economy, And if they think it's necessary you are going to see a massive Japanese rearmament, possibly including nukes, I read somewhere that it would take them about 20 months to get them if they set their minds to it. All of which would obviously render an already fragile situation even more so. And here again China's bullying of her weaker neighbours who consider their claims and interests to be at least as legitimate as hers certainly doesn't help. Managing China's rise is going to be THE challenge of the 21st century, and in my view neither side seems to be up to it.

[Transcend]

Lupusmalus, respect for human rights and freedom is certainly one of the best aspect of American culture. Since America is very interested in spreading its culture to the rest of the world, it certainly has influence on the US foreign policy. But if faced with national security issues and economic interests, these moral values always take a back seat. Saudi Arabia has a worse human rights record than China, but remains a major US ally because of its oil.

The reason I used so harsh language against Joseph1944 is because he thinks that the US government is an ANGEL and has right to enforce order everywhere around the world. The truth is that the US can never be a just "world policeman" because it places its national interests above the values it's trying to promote.

As for China walking the same path as the pre-WWI Germany, the potential is definitely there. Both China and Germany suffered greatly prior to their ascendence(Opium wars, Boxer Rebellion, and Japanese invasion for China; 30 years war and Napoleonic invasion for Germany), they both demand respect and "a place in the sun", both governments promote nationalism, and both experienced phenomenal economic growth at one time. The only differences this time are somewhat better international cooperations and the threat of MAD. It it really comes to an armageddon like the WWI, you may well start preparing for the Stone Age.

Originally posted by Transcend

The reason I used so harsh language against Joseph1944 is because he thinks that the US government is an ANGEL and has right to enforce order everywhere around the world. The truth is that the US can never be a just "world policeman" because it places its national interests above the values it's trying to promote.

As for China walking the same path as the pre-WWI Germany, the potential is definitely there.

Angel; Not so. if you knew me then you would know that it is not so.
World Policeman; Yes. We tend to value life more then some countries.
National Interest; Sometime I don't know who running things, big Business or the Goverment.
Walking the same path; No they running the same path, maybe they should slow down and walk it.
One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

History rarely repeats. China today is led by relatively pragmatic moderates. President Jiang Zemin and Prime Minister Zhu Rongji both want to build a good relationship to America. Taking a tough stance now against China is only going to feed ammo for hardline fanatics. China is not ruled by Hitlers as of now, but may be well the case if foreign powers give the current moderate leadership a too hard time. A nuclear war between China and the US is probably the last you want to have. Also, if China really gets in trouble with Russia or India, it can only benefit the US, because this will give the US even more means to extract concessions from involved countries.

You should appease people whom you can work with, you only take the hard stance to face fanatics or zealots.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944
One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

or

Johnny1944, Transcend, lupusmalus: All of you have made some interesting and thoughtful points, but now you are becoming paranoid. You’re falling for the old B-s dominoes theory. It is completely ridiculous to say that China will take Taiwan, then the South China Seas, then India, then Russia, then Mongolia. And the comparison with Germany is nuts.

The fundamental problem with your paranoia is that China has been among the most peaceful countries on the international scene. In the past 40 years, China has not invaded any country, with the exception of some skirmishes to protect its borders. Communist China has only been involved in two wars since 1949. Both wars were directly on its border.

Compare that to the real warmonger and threat to world peace -- the United States. In the past 50 years, the United States:
- Created a puppet dictatorship in Vietnam, created a fake incident (the Bay of Tonkin) and then invaded the country
- Helped overthrow democratically elected governments in Nicaragua, Chile, Iran, Guatemala, and so on
- Invaded Granada
- Invaded Panama
- Invaded Laos
- Invaded Cambodia
- Gave the green light to Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor
- Provided names of suspected communists in Indonesia and turned a blind eye when the Indonesian government killed more than 100,000 people being killed
- Became the largest arms dealer in the world
- Financed drug lords in the name of fighting against communists
- And so on, and so on.

God, save us from America.

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36


That is just plain bias. On what basis is your theory founded?

China claims land in Both India and Russia. Of course Russia and India claims land in China.

US wants to retain Taiwan as it's base in the Asia Pacific region and for domination over the world.

To my knowledge we do not have a base in Taiwan. I know we did not have one when I was in the Navy.

Where will the US go next? Hong Kong? Hainan? Vietnam? Shanghai?

We will not be going anywhere.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944

One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

That is just plain bias. On what basis is your theory founded? If China is expansionist I doubt it would bother to negotiate for so long and with so much difficulties in the proccess for the return of Hong Kong. With this kind of arguments that does not have any rational analysis, u can argue anything. Look at this theory I m proposing:

US wants to retain Taiwan as it's base in the Asia Pacific region and for domination over the world. China finally appeases US by abandoning reunification with Taiwan so as to avoid war. Where will the US go next? Hong Kong? Hainan? Vietnam? Shanghai? Shouldn't we stand up and say NO?

If u can see any reason why my theory will not stand while your theory will, then u are talking. Obviously both thoeries are as ill founded as the other.

Paranoia and irrationlism does not serve a country good. It is those feelings which allowed the rise of dictaors like Hitler.

Originally posted by Tingkai

Johnny1944, Transcend, lupusmalus: All of you have made some interesting and thoughtful points. It is completely ridiculous to say that China will take Taiwan, then the South China Seas, then India, then Russia, then Mongolia. And the comparison with Germany is nuts.

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

The fundamental problem with your paranoia is that China has been among the most peaceful countries on the international scene. In the past 40 years, China has not invaded any country, with the exception of some skirmishes to protect its borders. Communist China has only been involved in two wars since 1949. Both wars were directly on its border.

China invaded Korea to fight United Nation Forces in 1951. China sent pilots to North Vietnam to fight US Forces.

Compare that to the real warmonger and threat to world peace -- the United States. In the past 50 years, the United States:
- Created a puppet dictatorship in Vietnam,

The United Nation set the terms of the spliting of Vietnam.

created a fake incident (the Bay of Tonkin) and then invaded the country

We did not invade, we were asked to help South Vietnam by South Vietnam Gov.

Helped overthrow democratically elected governments in Nicaragua,

In July 1979, rebels overthrew the government of Anastasio Somoza, Somoza was at that time the last elected Pres. (Yes I know he was a crook). The US help (gave arms and money) the Contra to remove the Sandinista (The Sandinista were Communist). After the Sandinista were removed, Nicaragua held election and a new Democratic Gov was elected.

Iran
- Invaded Granada
- Invaded Laos
- Invaded Cambodia

Iran. We have never invaded Iran. In 1979 the follower of Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the Shah Gov. and set up a Islamic Republic Gov., and then started killing everyone who had worked in the Shah Gov.
Granada;
Castro was helping (With Cuba Army) communist rebel to take control of the country so we sent the military to make sure that the communist were defected.

Laos was being used by the North Vietnam Army, so we bomb their army in Laos.
Cambodia; to remove the base camps set up by North Vietnam Army.

Gave the green light to Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor
- Provided names of suspected communists in Indonesia and turned a blind eye when the Indonesian government killed more than 100,000 people being killed

Both Clinton and Bush have only sent Gov. Ambassador to ask both side to sit down and talk. No aid of anykind. No green light for sure.

Became the largest arms dealer in the world

Actually we are number 2. Russian is number 1, and China is number 3.
God, save us from America. [/QUOTE]
God is forbidden in the Communist world

[YefeiPi]

Joseph? Your posts are so full of inaccuracies, it's disgusting. Just your first two reasons are both wrong, I didn't have the time to read the rest!

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

First of all, did you know that India is actually pushing its borders against China? The U.S has made the Indians their allies and feed them with techs so that they can try to compete with China, and those Indians are right now pushing their luck with Chinese/Indian borders. However, China is a much stronger country in terms of technology and military morale so no worries there.

Second, Tibet was a small empire before China was united country? China was the first place where the first sense of a nation was created! Dating back to the Xia Dynasty, do a little research on the time period, my friend.

China invaded Korea to fight United Nation Forces in 1951. China sent pilots to North Vietnam to fight US Forces.

Are you mad? China invaded Korea? Haha (excuse your own pity knowledge), it was a war between North and South Korea, it's simply that North was communist and was supported by China, and south was supported by U.S and U.N. When did China start attacking Korea?!

Please joseph, make accurate posts. No one can be 100% sure of their information, but please at least be 5%

[lupusmalus]

Chamberlain also that that he could "do business" with Hitler...but yes, drawing a parallel with Hitlers's Germany IS nuts, but a parallel with pre-1914 Germany not so. No one wanted war back then, either, but what you had was a new power the rise of which inevitably clashed with the interests of the established powers, and that's exactly the same situation you have now. Back then huge parts of the population were disaffected with the ruling class, as they are now. Back then the government stirred up nationalism and desperately sought foreign policy successes to divert attention from the internal problems. And these problems were nothing if compared to the transformation China is undergoing right now. And the current Chinese leadership may be pragmatic, but so was Bismarck - his successors had some rather different ideas. And time and again history as proven that once a country gets powerful enough to bully its neighbours with impunity the temptation to do so is too strong, the US being just the most recent example. Yes, Tingkai, their track record is awful, but you can be damned sure that China (or indeed any country) would act in pretty much the same way if they could. That's not paranoia, it's just bloody human nature. It would be nice if China became a power able to stand up to the US, but by the same token the US needs to stay engaged in the Pacific.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

The South China seas are widely disputed by a number of countries. China claims it as its territory, but has not gone to war to defend it.

Yes, the two wars I was referring to were Tibet and Korea. Both occurred more than 40 years ago and the decision to take those actions cannot be attributed to the current leadership in China.

Originally posted by joseph1944
We did not invade, we were asked to help South Vietnam by South Vietnam Gov.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Somoza was at that time the last elected Pres. (Yes I know he was a crook). The US help (gave arms and money) the Contra to remove the Sandinista (The Sandinista were Communist).

Come off it. He was a dictator.

So you admit that the American government helped to overthrow the Sandinistas.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Iran. We have never invaded Iran.

Never said you did.

Originally posted by joseph1944
In 1979 the follower of Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the Shah Gov. and set up a Islamic Republic Gov., and then started killing everyone who had worked in the Shah Gov.
Granada;
Castro was helping (With Cuba Army) communist rebel to take control of the country so we sent the military to make sure that the communist were defected.

Laos was being used by the North Vietnam Army, so we bomb their army in Laos.
Cambodia; to remove the base camps set up by North Vietnam Army.

Why the Americans invaded these countries does not change the fact that the invasion occurred.

As for East Timor, I was referring to back in the 70s when Nixon and Kissinger met with Suhartro (sp?). A day after the meeting, Indonesia invaded East Timor. There is evidence that Nixon and Kissinger gave the green light to the invasion by saying the U.S. would not intervene

Originally posted by joseph1944
Actually we are number 2. Russian is number 1, and China is number 3.

Check your facts. And not all Gods are not forbidden in China.

Originally posted by Tingkai

Come off it. He was a dictator.

Yes he was, however he was the last elected leader at that time.

So you admit that the American government helped to overthrow the Sandinistas.

Pres. Regan was not going to allow another Communist Gov. to exsits in the America's

Why the Americans invaded these countries does not change the fact that the invasion occurred.

When a Army we are fighting set up a supply route and base camp in another country what should we do, just sit there and watch? We did not remove any Gov. from power.

Check your facts. And not all Gods are not forbidden in China.

Who said anything about Gods. I was talking our Lord God creator of Heaven and Earth, master of the Universe.

[YefeiPi]

Jospeph, just shut your pity mouth. Nothing accurate ever come out of it.

A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

You are comparing China to WWII Germany? What the hell? On what basis do you compare these two countries? Taiwan is more Chinese to China than Czech is German to Germany.

God is forbidden in the Communist world

You are an (I really want to use the F word here for someone as low as you are) idiot! I just realized we are dealing with a low intelligence person here, where did you get the fact that God is forbidden in the Communist world? You think your U.S is heaven, then live in your dream, you idiot! Many Americans are atheist, and many people from communist countries have religions.

Man your words are as worthless as garbage. Please give proof to everything you say, your blind American "pride" is idiotic.