Shakepeare's Theater

suas333 · January 1, 2001, 14:54

I usually don't build Shakespeare's Theater, but i am now in a game where i might be able to use it. I was wondering, do players normally sell off happiness improvements in the city they build shakespeare's in? I have a temple and a Colloseum to see off if i don't need them anymore. I don't plan on using We Love The King Days so i don't need them for that.

So, do i see off the temple and Collisum after i build Shakespeare's?

St Leo · January 1, 2001, 15:26

Only if you are going to switch to Fundamentalism.

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suas333 · January 1, 2001, 15:47

So whats purpose do these improvements serve after i build shakespeare's? Under a communist government lets say.

Smash · January 1, 2001, 17:24

No purpose.Sell em.Even if you were going to celebrate they only give content citizens so won't help "we love" at all.

They give tithes in Fundy but not worth the longterm upkeep.

You might keep the temple if you anticipate any sabotage attempts.

suas333 · January 1, 2001, 17:33

thanx a lot. And good point about the sabatoge attempts. Especially since i have Adam's...getting some small gold for selling the temple isn't worth giving up a cheap improvement for sabatoge, especially with no maintenance cost.

SandMonkey · January 1, 2001, 18:36

Actually Smash, having the happiness improvemnts in your city do serve a purpose. They still help you to achieve WLTPD.

Shake's is a wonder, so it's effects are added to a city's happiness last. Therefore, if you take away improvements which are keeping citz content and they become unhappy, your luxuries have to keep these people content now, instead of making them happy. Any other citz that are still unhappy after everything has had it's effect is now made content my Shakes.

So if you still want to grow, or celebrate a "we love" day, then keep your improvements around.

I just tested this, so unless my copy of civ is wrong...

Smash · January 1, 2001, 21:29

Well,if that were the case then we would never be able to celebrate up in OCC games.Shakes=No unhappies in that city.The only thing that happens is in Democracy,a unit away will make a happy citizen content which can mess up celebrations.Markets,banks,stock exchanges,superhighways and trade routes are what give you trade arrows.You allott trade arrows thru your tax advisor.More trade arrows=more luxury "cups"=more happys

"Happy" improvements are actually "content" improvements.They make people content.Economic improvements(thru tax rates) and courthouses(democracy) make people happy.

good terrain don't hurt either.

Laertes · January 2, 2001, 11:45

But you cannot have WLTxDs if you have happies and red faces. I agree with Sand Monkey - my experience says that WLTxD days come a lot cheaper when you have temples and colliseums.

However, the topic starter said that he/she does not want WLTxDs, so then you can sell them.

markusf · January 2, 2001, 19:04

What are you talking about? That city will never ever have unhappiness, you can have 40 units supported from that city in dem if you have the shields, and if all those units are in the field, you city won't have a single unhappy person.

SandMonkey · January 2, 2001, 20:53

markus - i know there won't be any unhappiness at all. The fact is that by having one or two of the happiness improvements it can actually give you one or two extra happy citizens. I can't quite figure out how it works out to that though...

All I know is what i sw on the city screen... It might work that the luxuries make the person content and then happy. If there are only enough luxuries to make a person content, then when you add the "content" improvements, those luxuries then switch over to make that one or two citizens happy.

That could be totally wrong, of course. Oh, and like Fergus said, if you're not going for a WLTxD, then any happiness improvements are totally pointless.

debeest · January 2, 2001, 23:39

Sand, you're missing something. Happiness comes primarily from luxuries, and the effects of luxuries are all counted BEFORE the effects of contentment improvements and wonders. First the citizens move one by one from unhappy to content to happy, based on luxuries alone; THEN any remaining unhappies can be placated by the improvements/wonders. This means that the contentment improvements and wonders have no effect at all on the number of happies. And with Shakespeare, there are no unhappies at all, ever. Thus, contentment improvements and wonders have no value at all in a city with Shakespeare.

Maybe there's one exception: HG or Cure can add a happy, and if that happens BEFORE Shakespeare, it might only move a citizen from unhappy to content. I think actually HG/Cure effectively happens AFTER Shakespeare, but I'm not sure.

Juggler_Bob · January 3, 2001, 02:14

The key to Shakespeare's, as markusf implied, is when in republic/democracy. Build it in one of your highest (shield) production cities, and then make that city the 'home' of as many military units as the city can support. Then you can have a fairly large active military while still enjoying the benefits of Rep/Dem.

You can also sell off happiness improvements from the city in a pinch without the city going into revolt.

-Bob

Laertes · January 3, 2001, 10:53

quote:

Originally posted by markusf on 01-02-2001 06:04 PM
What are you talking about? .

You're quite right. Re-read my post - total nonsense. I have no idea what I'm talking about, and am going back to the top to read this all again!

Fergus

Edward · January 3, 2001, 14:45

Slightly off topic...

Do happiness improvements (not wonders, I'm talking temples, cathedrals, and coliseums) modify the number of luxury cups a city produces (e.g. +50%) or do they add to the base number of luxury cups a city produces (e.g. +2 cups)?

Factories don't create shields out of thin air, they add a percentage to the shields already being created by worked squares. Similarly marketplaces don't add to the coins being brought in by taxes. They take the coins already being brought in and multiply them by 150%.

However, temples help keep my citizens content even when my luxury rate is 0% and there are no entertainers in the city. How do temples help when there are no "natural" raw luxury cups coming in?

Blaupanzer · January 3, 2001, 15:48

Edward,

The "happiness improvements" (more properly called 'contentment improvements') work independently of the money and production systems. Each improvement acts directly on X number of unhappy citizens, making them content.

Red unhappies are affected directly, but when black unhappies are acted on, the improvement's effect is halved. For example, a colliseum makes 4 red; OR 2 red, 1 black; OR 2 black unhappy citizens content.

This system is another interdependent operater affecting investment values and city-size decisions.

Sieve Too · January 3, 2001, 16:11

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 01-02-2001 10:39 PM</font>
Sand, you're missing something. Happiness comes primarily from luxuries, and the effects of luxuries are all counted BEFORE the effects of contentment improvements and wonders.

Correct.

quote:

First the citizens move one by one from unhappy to content to happy, based on luxuries alone;

Not true. Luxuries start out making any and all DOUBLE unhappy citizens happy first. Then they work from "left to right". If the leftmost citizen is content, it is made happy. If it is unhappy, it is first made content and then it is made happy before moving on to the next citizen. Bottom line: you can run out of luxuries before affecting all citizens and end up with a mix of happy and unhappy citizens.

quote:

THEN any remaining unhappies can be placated by the improvements/wonders.

Yes, but there is a step between improvements and wonders: the effects of the military. In Rep/Dem citizens are made unhappy by miltary units away from home in a "right to left" fashion. Starting from the rightmost content or happy citizen, military units turn them unhappy one by one. If you have, say, a Temple and a Colloseum, you have potentially 6 content citizens who will be made unhappy by the military before your happy citizens are affected. Without the improvements, military units go right after the citizens that were made happy by luxuries and they turn them right back into unhappies again.

Of course, at the end Shakes just turns each unhappy into a content but if you lost enough happy guys from the military, Shakes can't give you them back and you may not have enough for WLTxD.

In other gov'ts of course you have the martial law effect from the military and therefore improvements don't matter at all with Shakes.

edit: fix typos.
[This message has been edited by Sieve Too (edited January 03, 2001).]

SandMonkey · January 3, 2001, 19:16

right. so please explain how, when i sold the happy improvements, 1-2 citizens went from happy to content. Obviously they have some effect. I'll post screen shots if I have to.

Sieve Too · January 4, 2001, 12:50

quote:

Originally posted by SandMonkey on 01-03-2001 06:16 PM
right. so please explain how, when i sold the happy improvements, 1-2 citizens went from happy to content. Obviously they have some effect. I'll post screen shots if I have to.

Actually, that was precisely the point I was trying to make. Under Rep/Dem, the happiness improvements do have an effect on the overall number of happy vs content citizens even with Shakes.

debeest · January 5, 2001, 04:22

Sieve, the military stuff happens AFTER the contentment improvements -- after everything but Bach and maybe HG and Cure, and of course Shakespeare. Thus, improvements can't affect the military discontent either. I'm quite sure that temples, cathedrals, and colosseums have no effect whatsoever on WLT_D in a city with Shakespeare -- the luxuries determine how many are happy, and Shakespeare determines that none are unhappy. I'd like to see what happened in Sand's game, but I'm skeptical.

Crustacian · January 5, 2001, 05:06

Shakespeares is a very underused and powerfull wonder.
In even more ways than above. Think of it in combo or not with colosus in building up a large city very quickly.
Why? use your imagination.

Carolus Rex · January 5, 2001, 06:20

"Don't know much about history, don't know much about the french I took..."

I don't know much about these numerical things, but I do know that in many OCC games selling off the temple immediately after building Shake's often made one happy guy content. So I started keeping it until I was done celebrating. Like SandMonkey I've seen it happen with my own eyes, so unless I was hallucinating...

I also remember that Sieve Too explained why in a thread about it. Don't have the patience to look for it, but I guess the post above settles the issue?

Carolus

Smokey tha nuke man · January 6, 2001, 17:07

sell em unless your under fundy. the temple, go ahead an keep if ya got smith's, but sell the colleseium. Milkshakes theater makes evrybody at least content, so paying it's up keep is a waste of money.

SandMonkey · January 6, 2001, 18:09

thank you Carolus

Smash · January 6, 2001, 18:18

Carolus' post kinda rings a bell about some of my early OCC games.I do seem to remember hanging on to temples for that reason,But I think that was because I didn't have my trade improvements completed because I notice no such thing now.Now,with 3 routes,temple,colliseum and market,20% lux will take me up to size 12.After that I need 30% past size 13 until I have a bank then back to 20%

Alinestra Covelia · January 7, 2001, 08:36

Actually, I am more or less certain that having Shakespeare's Theater in a city does NOT render it immune to unhappy citizens caused by military units.

Whilst making a scenario, I gave a civ the wonder in their main production city and then decided to pile on the military units. Much to my surprise, unhappy people did appear.

Another annoying thing is that Shakespeare's Theater does not give you anything if you are running a Fundamentalism. Ideally, it should pay you one gold per citizen made happy, meaning that a Fundamental state could make a huge amount of money per turn from it.

Anybody know how to change this?

Smokey tha nuke man · January 7, 2001, 21:54

shakespeares makes all unhappy citizens content, regardless of luxuries, military units, other happy improvments.

i think there's something in rules.txt that you can change to make it give yo 1 gold per person, but i'm not sure.
[This message has been edited by Smokey tha nuke man (edited January 07, 2001).]

Sieve Too · January 8, 2001, 12:59

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 01-05-2001 03:22 AM
Sieve, the military stuff happens AFTER the contentment improvements -- after everything but Bach and maybe HG and Cure, and of course Shakespeare. Thus, improvements can't affect the military discontent either.

Improvements only help with the mix of happy vs. content when you have Shakes.

quote:

I'm quite sure that temples, cathedrals, and colosseums have no effect whatsoever on WLT_D in a city with Shakespeare -- the luxuries determine how many are happy, and Shakespeare determines that none are unhappy.

Not true. The order of happiness effects are:

1) Luxuries: make some people happy, can leave a mix of happy and unhappy.

2) Improvements: can make some of the remaining unhappy citizens content.

3) Military: In Rep/Dem, the military first makes any content citizens unhappy and when it runs out of content, it makes happy citizens unhappy. This last point is crucial.

4) Wonders: In this case, Shakes, which makes any and all unhappy citizens content.

In order to get WLT_D, you must have at least as many happy as you have content. #1 can give you enough happies, but if you have no #2, then #3 will start immediately undoing what #1 did, leaving you with fewer happy citizens. Of course #4, Shakes, gets rid of all the unhappy citizens, but it does not restore the happy citizens lost. If you lose enough happy citizens from #3, no WLT_D.

I've personally tried this in a Democracy that had a city with Shakes supporting 8 ships out to sea. No amount of luxuries would make that city celebrate until I rebuilt the Colloseum.

debeest · January 10, 2001, 04:29

Forgive me, you're right. First your luxuries barely make half the people happy; then your improvements make some others content; then your units in field make some unhappy again. Without the improvements, the units in field can push all the way over and begin to affect the happy citizens. I rarely build Shakespeare, so I don't tend to have many units in the field from one city, so I've never noticed this happening to me.

Apropos of this happiness stuff, here's a weird one that people have noted but not explained much. Two luxuries make an enraged citizen happy (why?!). For some reason, Hanging Gardens seems to works the same way, rather than straightforwardly shifting the citizen one "step" as temples, Bach, etc. do. This is why it's possible to make a city LESS happy by moving a martial law unit into it (or by building a temple) when you have outraged citizens. The temple or martial law unit makes an enraged citizen just angry, and then HG can only move it to content. Bizarre.

East Street Trader · January 10, 2001, 07:18

Very clear exposition, Sieve Too. Thanks. A nice point to get thoroughly pinned down.

debeest

As you say, the fact that two luxuries converts a double unhappy straight to happy without going thro' a content phase is well known. ICS seems to rely heavily on the combination of HG and one military unit keeping all its size two cities under control. But I too can't recall seeing an explanation of why two luxuries has that effect. DaveV is the guru of the black hats so maybe he could explain the phenomenon.

Edit. That HG has the same effect is no surpries. It is just doing what it promises to do - guarateeing one happy citizen in each city (plus the three in the city where it is built). It does not choose which citizen to work on - it is always the first one (or first three). The double unhappy (or both double unhappies) are always the first ones too.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited January 10, 2001).]

DaveV · January 10, 2001, 08:57

EST - I think the very unhappy to happy conversion is a bug. As you say, it makes ICS a lot more productive. I have to point out that HG does not guarantee a happy first citizen, but instead acts like an invisible elvis (applied in the fourth happiness step). If your first citizen is content or you have any very unhappy citizens, you get a happy; if the first citizen is merely unhappy, he's only converted to content.