I wonder why Americans....

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Tingkai

As for the Europeans, they did not have world power until the 19th century. In the 17th and 18th century, China was one of the most civilized places on earth.

Haha. China civilized? Do you know what they eat?? I've been there. IMO they were/are not very civilized. Nowadays they just copy every single Western political idea.

BTW: USA is a civilization. Spain isn't anylonger, but has been, so they should be included.

Normally americans have no language

What do they do then? Bark at eachother? j/k.

[SK138]

I think this should answer Uffty's question about America being a civilization. If you go in to Word and type in "civilization" then go to the thesaurus you get the words "people", "society", "nation", "culture", and "empire".
American's are people living in a society and nation and there culture has spread worldwide. The American empire is our territory or domain.
I also looked up the word "civilization" in a couple of dictionaries and here is what I got:

Main Entry: civ·i·li·za·tion
Pronunciation: "si-v&-l&-'zA-sh&n
1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological
development; specifically : the stage of cultural development
at which writing and the keeping of written records is
attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or
place
2 : the process of becoming civilized
3 a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation
of urban comfort

civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn)
n.
An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material
development in human society, marked by progress in the
arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping,
including writing, and the appearance of complex political and
social institutions.
The type of culture and society developed by a particular
nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization;
the civilization of ancient Rome.
The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.
Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization
after camping in the mountains.

Once again, America fits under just about every definition of the term "civilization".
Uffty, you also argue about America having no culture. Do you drink Pepsi or Coke? Do you have Nike shoes? What about McDonalds? The Disney theme park(s) in Europe are all based on the Walt Disney's cartoons and his theme parks in the US. Walt Disney is also American. I was watching TV one day and I saw this show about Japan and some people were eating, but they weren't eating the traditional Japanese foods, they were eating hamburgers, hot dogs, and french fries which are American foods. Here is a big event that shows how America culture has spread. When America won its independence they decided to become a democracy while just about every other country still had some form of Monarchy, but now countries like Britain, France, and even the American rivals throughout most of the 80s, the Russians, all use some form of democracy. So how can you say America has no culture when it has spread around the world?

[Cookie Monster]

Good points SK138!

[Waku]

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
Americans did the same

Why are you blaming us all the time then, perhaps to make the world to not to point at you

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
So i kinda doubt your 99% is accurate

I didn't mean to be accurate. 90%?
How "much" in the american culture comes from indian customs.

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
And yeah im pretty sure they exterminated the Aztecs.
...
Waku your posts seem to single out americans as exterminators, I dont think that is a good way of looking at things. Looking at an entire civilization (nation, race, or whatever) that way is kinda racist.

Pls make up your mind. You don't like me to accuse americans but you can freely accuse spanish . That's very hypocritical.
In any case genetic studies will confirm who exterminated who

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
Now Waku your just being silly. Please dont insult me, you dont know me

again.
I did not, you did.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Uffty
You said americans have culture...?

In my opinion, and thats only a opinion ok, I think a big part of a culture is represented by the language. Normally americans have no language (besides the hispanic or chinese, but they belong to other cultures). The language you use for communications is english, a little bit "raped" over the years and spoken way different than good old Londoners do.

So you believe language = culture. Well I believe that is your opinion and a misinformed one at that, so I went to a dictionary and got this:

From Merriam-Webster Online
Main Entry: 1cul·ture
Pronunciation: 'k&l-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin cultura, from cultus, past participle
Date: 15th century
1 : CULTIVATION, TILLAGE
2 : the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education
3 : expert care and training
4 a : enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills
5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation
6 : cultivation of living material in prepared nutrient media; also : a product of such cultivation

I don't see language in there. Sorry, I guess that means to me at least culture has nothing to do with language.

But anyway, you don't understand views from outside.

Now let's talk about racism or sterotyping, which you brought up before. So, in your opinion because I am an American I don't understand or don't want to listen to views outside of my nation? How insulting.

I listened to what you had to say and totally disagreed with it. So I told you that. I have read countless threads of why the US should not be included in Civ III. And I have agreed with some. But to say the US has no culture or that Native Americans were all free spirits that worshipped trees all day is just plain wrong. And I am going to let you know that. If you don't like it then fine, don't read it.

Let me put it so..Americans should be of course in the game, but Spanish shouldnt be have left out. Well after all, you can customize.

Fine I have never said the Spanish should not be in the game. I also wish the Mongols were in as well. And in fact the Iroquois should not be in. But none of that leads to you saying that the US has no culture. Just because it is modern does not mean it is not culture. That very concept angers me.

[red_jon]

Uffty, I wasn't being racist - I said in CIV2 TERMS

Besides, the natives didn't even have cities- they were nomadic.

They are hardly a civ.

And the Yanks do have culture- TV programmes, McDonalds, etc is still a culture, no matter how tacky it is

[Inverse Icarus]

blah.

if u want to think methodically rather than ethnocentrically, think civ terms.

world map. only 2 civs able to start in american continents? nuh unh.

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Waku your still being so silly, typical waku
allow me to point out a few errors of yours, though i cant blame you for them, they are probably my fault.

Why are you blaming us all the time then, perhaps to make the world to not to point at you

By "you" are you refering to me personaly, if so i will explain why your foolish by saying this. But i think by "you" you are refering to americans since you say "perhaps to make the world not point at you" at the end of the statement, i doubt the world would point at me so i assume you mean America. Im sure there are many americans that regret what has happened in the past. To be fair there are those that dont regret it eaither for various reasons. I doubt that America would point out other countries past to draw attention away from our own. Maybe individuals do, i know i dont, but their is no denying what our ancesters have done in the past.

I didn't mean to be accurate. 90%? How "much" in the american culture comes from indian customs.

I can agree with you here, im sure that mexican culture is much more intertwined with indian culture than american but its definetly present in american culture, maybe not entirly noticable but its there. Just have to look for it.

Pls make up your mind. You don't like me to accuse americans but you can freely accuse spanish . That's very hypocritical.

This is probably why i wrote this reply in the first place, First off by "they" i meant Cortez's exploring party, though it was probably more like a raiding party(it would have to be to exterminate an entire civilization). I thought by saying "Looking at an entire civilization (nation, race, or whatever) that way is kinda racist" would give you the impression that by "they" i wasnt refering to Spain since i am, in fact, not a hypocrit. Assumption can be a tricky thing, as my Architectual Instructer would put it "When you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME"(in this case you should probably say this to me waku).

[Waku]

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
Waku your still being so silly, typical waku

typical? I forgot we(*) had the same discussion last year.

(*)= you(**) & me
(**)= draco

it seems insulting is your(*) fav hobby, at least you(**) could change the adj.

(*)=draco's
(**)=draco

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
...Cortez's exploring party, though it was probably more like a raiding party(it would have to be to exterminate an entire civilization).

Only a civ can exterminate another civ (not even Cortés).

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
By "you" are you refering to me personaly, if so i will explain why your foolish by saying this. But i think by "you" you are refering to americans since you say "perhaps to make the world not point at you" at the end of the statement, i doubt the world would point at me so i assume you mean America.
Assumption can be a tricky thing, as my Architectual Instructer would put it "When you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME"(in this case you should probably say this to me waku).

You(*) should assume more often, it would save you(*) some thinking time. I thought my posts were clear enough, but you(*) can always blame my silly English.

(*)you=draco

[War4ever]

the Americans are in to ethnically cleanse the Iroquois i assume..... isn't this a somewhat "realistic" idea for the game

[Draco aka Se7eN]

what are you talking abuot waku, i was being sarcastic.

I think you should take your own advice, maybe you should assume more often. I was stating that i wasnt clear enough, obviously i still am not clear enough. I never said that you were not clear.

Perhaps you should reread what i said. If you still dont understand then just say so and i be more than happy to clerify.

Only a civ can exterminate another civ (not even Cortés).

I do believe having cannons, rifles and advanced military tactics compared to spears, rocks, daggers, and throwing axes would make the difference. So i doubt it would require an entire country or civilization to destry another under these circumstances.

[Waku]

I'd like to remind you the starting point of our discussion:

Waku:At least they had the chance of survive us. Your puritanisn didn't give them that chance.
Draco:Ok im sorry but this is Hilarious

Now u don't seem to think it's so hilarious. Now You seem to agree that spanish gave the indian culture more posibilities to survive (at least more than americans did).

Regarding Cortés there's something to clarify. I'm talking about extermination you've just changed the term by destroy. Well, as I've said before spanish subjugated the aztecs and destroyed their empire (killing lots of them) but we did not exterminate them.

Iroquois were exterminated from their homeland after the american independence, and the survivals where sent far away from you (americans).

This is what I'm talking about

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Well really it depends on what you mean by surviving, any aztec generations today are very intertwined with Spanish or other genes. There are no aztec tribes out there that can honestly say, "hey we are aztec people." (If there are actual Aztecs with like 65% aztec blood i would like to know please, heck 20% would be great) I would consider this extermination. Sure there is some aztec "blood" left but the same can be said for any tribe the americans "exterminated". Sure the ratio maybe lower but it can still be found. American ancesters may have been more cruel emotionaly towards the native americans.


IF the aztecs were simply destroyed then where are they today?
I doubt there is a person alive today with at least 20% aztec "blood" today.

There are a number of Native american tribes that probably still have "pure blood" members.


If your going to say that american ancesters exterminated some tribes, who had a smaller population than the aztecs by the way, yet there still exsists a some people that still have a small percentage of that tribes "blood" and not say that cortes exterminated, but only destroyed, the aztec civilization when just a little bit more of a percentage of aztec "Blood" exsists in mexican culture today then

[Waku]

There are many, they are known as nahuatl and probably most of them 100% aztec blood (mexica and aztec are two different names for the most important nahuatl tribe). Check this out:
http://www.azteca.net/aztec/

[splangy]

Originally posted by Uffty

I know most of you americans dont know where Europe or Africa is, neither do most of you know, that America has borders, but do you really think they have a bigger "cultural" aspect as the Spanish ?

Comments from educated minds ?

[begin enraged rant]
fu ck you! im an ammerican 12 year old and i know were europe is, in fact i enjoy studying europeon history, (yes, i am a dork) and im 12 !! Just becouse all your warped f ucking little propaganda over there says that americans are retarded dosen't meen it true scumbag [end enraged rant/]

i beleive americans are in becouse the game show the development of civilization, howwever it dosent show civilizations, otherwise many cultures like spainish one (witch i thank god is out of civ3, in my beleif there only impact was settling colonys, then having them revolt... wow )
wouldn't have been in civ 2, beouse just as easily as you could say america isn't a civilization, it came from to many civs to really be called a civ but america is a great country that has developed its own culture, witch has influenced the world over, so they really cant be left out.

ps- if americans are all idiots, and were made up of spanish people largly, then i guess all spanish people are idiots, along with all blacks, english, french, german (my heritage) etc.. but your probably right, its not like we were the first civ to send a man to the moon, ohh wait, we are *dumbass*

[tniem]

I will be the American to apologize for splangy's comments. They show his age and maturity but he was only trying to counter Uffy's comments that also went to far. Unfortunately, our friend splangly has not learned how to win arguments with calm and calculated words. Hopefully he will learn from this and in the future use more appropriate language and a more civil tone.

To Splangly: Think about what happened and if a vacation is coming please return with a better demeanor. And for the love of your country never say those things again. What do you want to have happen? The entire world hate us?

To Everyone else: Not all Americans are like him nor are all 12 year old Americans. Some actually know how to spell...

[kcsaff]

America should be included in Civ3, and for a good reason. Look at Civ3's tech tree for the modern age. How many of these techs and wonders were developed by Americans? How could Firaxis leave out a group that dominates 1/4 of the tech tree?

As for those who continue to argue USA has no culture, it is important to realize that American pop culture is certainly distinct. The fact that so many don't recognize it as "culture" validates its uniqueness; obviously it doesn't cater to the detractors' cultural values.

I do think Spain should have been in the16, maybe instead of France.

[rah]

America is in the game because there will be more sales in the US than in any other country. PERIOD.

For all you non-Americans that define American Culture By the pop culture that you have been exposed to, I pity you.

American artists have made major contributions in terms of works of arts, books, music, architecture, etc. If any of you snobs would ever walk through the museums in almost any major American city, it would be obvious to you. But please feel free to judge us on all the crap that YOU demand to see and spend money on. Don't blame us. You're the suckers in that exchange. More people watch "Baywatch outside the US than here"

Pleeeease feel free to make fun of our pop culture, if that's the only way you can feel superior. I'll be enjoying a walk through the Museum of Art in Chicago enjoying not just our culture, but yours too.

RAH

[Jay Bee]

Tniem: Everybody understand, don't worry. I have no doubt he will improve

kcsaff: Thanks for you support man, but I myself would not like the Spanish to be in at the expense of the French. Albert Camus exlained it quite well: "Spain, France and Italy are all parts of the same civilization".

rah: I will always enjoy yor witty sense of humor... who are you, btw?