Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more...

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by lockstep
And that´s why I suddenly like the rule of 'only 20 points (1/8) of your vote for a single civ' although I advocated 40 points (1/4) before.

To all the fans of the Polish civ that still have 140 points left: I´d be interested in the rest of your vote.

Now when we have the key in our hands I think the rules should have been that you couldn't give more then 1/4 of the points you have assigned up to 80 points after that max 20 points (as currently, and max 5 points per civ before you reach a total of 20 points.

[Internationalist]

Ok, I've been reading the"Why polland..." thread.
Admitedly it has some points to back the polish request for their civ.
But is that enough?
Greece revolted against the Turks some 180 years ago(With major powers of the time help but many others against it).
Holded Axis troops for a month(crucial since it's one of the reasons the germans had to fight USSR in winter). Pap test is the result of the efforts of a greek scientist(dr. Papanikolau).(Women use it to trace cancer). Two greeks are nobel prize winners.The late Nikos Kazantzakis-famous author- was greek.
All facts that happened the past 200 years.
Now, based only on those, would ANYONE vote for greeks to be one of the civs? I don't think I even would. Not to try to discourage you, though, I admire especially Lod's effort to do all he can to support his country.I'm sure you'll keep trying, i can only wish people in my country could do the same(it would seem we exist solely to remember our glorious PAST).
There are some pathetic people(namely Kc7mxo and I don't care if that is flaming since his writing proves his quality as a person).That doesn't change the way I percieve the rest of you, I just hope thay ceased to exist somehow
From what I'm writing it's obvious I didn't change my mind,still I sympathise with you(you've been after all quite a tortured nation not unlike us).I wish you to succeed in your effort, but I hope you fail.

[hewhocaves]

Toss me onto the polish bandwagon (Polski Bandwagonski)

Poles 20
Cavers 20
Dwarves 20


(I'll think up anything else I want to toss in later)

[Lumpkin]

I have a complaint to make,

In my original vote I gace one point to that great and noble civilization "the Fatty Lumpkins". In the recent poll update I failed to find them anywhere! This has distressed me greatly. Does this mean all 160 points of my vote have been ignored or is it just the Fatty Lumpkins' one?

[Locutus]

Okay, I updated again, this time up to Staszek (total # of votes 171, total # of points 23789). I planned on posting this update earlier but had problems with my Internet connection. Now I don't have much time so I don't have time to update it to include the votes made after Staszek, so these people will need to have some patience and wait a few days longer to see their votes reflected in the overall ranking...

Ubik,

Originally posted by Ubik
Alright, errare humanum est

Duo verba: Sic est

Jdd,
Yep, that's right. In case it's not entirely clear, this is your vote:
1) Hebrew - 20
2) Arabs - 20
3) Scots - 20
4) Inca - 10
5) Maya - 10
6) Portuguese - 10
7) Dutch - 20
8) Koreans - 20
9) Poles - 20
10) Malians - 10

Gramphos,
Actually, I plan to keep it open until the Neanderthals make it into the top 32
Nah, as long as people are voting on a (more or less) daily basis I see no reason to close the poll (unless it goes on for a very, very long time...)

lukasz,
You have 40 points left.

Orange,
Sorry, but you already gave the Celts 20 points, you can't give them any more...

Borg,
You have 100 points left. BTW, is borg actually a Polish word/name or are you actually assimilated, like me?

Ogotai,
You have 120 points left. If you're such a Poland fan (assuming that you are), why on earth do you have a Mongol name as handle? I mean, the Mongols kicked Polish ass under Ogotai's rule...

Well, funny how you choose the cut off the quote at that point, because my very next words were 'okay, maybe not extremely important historically but the area still covers something like 1/3th (if not more) of the earth's surface!'. Personally, I really think that a game that is supposed to let you replay all of human history should also represent all of humanity, so even though it wasn't the most important region historically, I don't think leaving out all the people from such a huge part of the planet is a good thing... And in case you hadn't noticed, the Sioux and Apache are very similar to the Iroquois and Zulu and those civs are in Civ3. I'm not saying that leaving out the Byzantines or Polish or including the Polynesians (or Iroquois or Zulu for that matter) is the best possible choice but looking on how the votes are distributed at the moment, I'd say it's a sensible one.

Oh, don't worry, LoD, I'm not insulted or anything

Originally posted by LoD
Boris: And what shall we give them in return? Long last names ?

Sounds like a deal to me...

Solmyr,
I'm afraid you voted for 17 civs while 16 is the maximum. I'm afraid I can't count your vote like this...

Tarquinius,

Originally posted by Tarquinius
(to make you happy )

Chris,
You're welcome...

OzzyKP,
See the first post of this thread or today's Civ3 news (though first post is more recent and elaborate)...

ranskaldan,
Once again your 'oldvote' didn't quite correspond with your actual old vote as I counted it but this time it was a fairly small difference (you said Dutch and Portuguese had 10 points, my count says 5). I once again assumed your 'newvote' list as your actual vote and have updated the listed based on that.
About Manchu/Manchurian, you have a point there. I've changed it now.

Lumpkin,
Relax, it's okay! If you had looked a little closer you might have noticed that my previous update included all votes up to eXimius and you voted after him(/her). The update I posted just now includes your vote too and (somewhat reluctantly) I added the Fatty Lumpkins as well...

All,
About the Polish issue: no matter how you set up the rules, people will always find ways around them. Now we can all see why I set up the 20 point max rule. I considered adding extra rules and making them more complicated but I didn't want to discourage anyone from voting by forcing them to read and obey to all kinds of complicated and arbitrary rules, I wouldn't like that myself either. Whether it's cheating or not in any way is impossible to say without know all the facts (and even with all the facts it could be a tough call) but it at the very least looks like it might not 100% 'clean'. Quite frankly there's probably little I can do about it other than what I have already done but I will look into it anyway. The very least we can do is when we send this list to Firaxis at least let them know of any curious circumstances in which they the ranking came into being and let them be the judge. This includes the current Polish situation but I have the feeling Gramphos wouldn't mind if we explained the Neanderthal situation as well

[mactbone]

I just want everyone to know I should get a little bit of credit for the Neanderthals. That being said, I got intrigued by the Fatty Lumpkins...

Fatty Lumpkins Civ -
Leader: Fatty Lumpkin (uhh, that was hard)
Capital: Lumpkinopolis
Other Cities: Lumpkin City, New Lumpkin City, Lumpkin D.C., etc.
UU: Giant Yellow Lump (Argues that all other civs are worthless, making citizens unhappy in opposing cities)

Great Leaders:
Lumpkin (Just can't leave well enough alone can he)
Fatty Fatty Two by Four (Fatty's youngest son, when on to crush the Mongols claiming they were just a collection of tribes)
Lumpy (Didn't do much, but man was he yellow and he thought that the Poles got too many votes)

OK, it wasn't my best, but I think it's a little bit funny...

[dennis580]

I forgot to include the Israelies. I've always been a stron supporter of Israel. Anyway here's my new votes.

Israelies +20
Italins -20


So this is how my votes now look.

#1. Mongols 20 points
#2. Carthage 20 points
#3. Huns 20 points
#4. Spanish 20 points
#5. Vikings 20 points
#6. Trojans 20 points
#7. Israelies 20 points
#8. Turks 20 points

[orange]

I'm going to change mine completely then...

Original

Spanish - 20
Celts - 20
Viking - 10
Turks - 10
Mongol - 10
Phoenicia - 10
Assyrian - 10
Australian - 10
Canadian - 10
Polish - 10
Brazil - 10
Mexico - 10
Huns - 5
Portugal - 5

New
Spanish - 20
Celts - 20
Turks - 10
Arabs - 10
Australian - 10
Brazil - 10
Portugese - 10
Canadian - 10
Polish - 10
Mongols - 10
Ethiopians/Aksumites - 10
Vikings - 10

[Zealot]

Finaly, I'm going to vote!

1. Portuguese 20 Commercial & Expansionist
2. Brazilian 20 Commercial &... Religious?
3. Hebrew 20 Religious & Militaristic
4. Arabs 15 Religious & Commercial or Expansionist
5. Assyrians 15 Militaristic & Religious or Commercial
6. Huns 10 Militaristic & Expansionist
7. Spanish 10 Religious & Expansionist
8. Inca 10 Scientific & any of the others (you choose)
9. Byzantines 10 Don't know
10. Koreans 10 Don't know
11. Sumerians 10 Don't know
12. Polynesians 10 Don't know

Go Portugal!!!!

[Glazer]

1. Poles 20
2. Vikings 10
3. Turks/Ottomans 10
4. Phoenicians/Carthaginians 10
5. Maya 10
6. Celts 10
7. Portuguese 10
8. Byzantines 10
9. Arabs 10
10. Spanish 10
11. Mongols 10
12. Inca 10
13. Assyrians 10
14. Tatars 10
15. Amazonians 10

[Bubba]

My votes:


1. Turks/Ottomans 20
2. Hebrew/Israelis 20
3. Dutch 20
4. Portuguese 20
5. Koreans 20
6. Byzantines 20
7. Austrians/Austro-Hungarians 20
8. Scots 20

[Mongoloid Cow]

1. Australians (20)
2. Brazilians (19)
3. Turks/Ottomans (18)
4. Ethiopians (17)
5. Mali (16)
6. Austrians (Austro-Hungarians) (15)
7. Macedonians (14)
8. Arabs (13)
9. Mongols (12)
10. New Zealanders (11)
11. Canadians (5)

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by Locutus
About the Polish issue: no matter how you set up the rules, people will always find ways around them. Now we can all see why I set up the 20 point max rule. I considered adding extra rules and making them more complicated but I didn't want to discourage anyone from voting by forcing them to read and obey to all kinds of complicated and arbitrary rules, I wouldn't like that myself either. Whether it's cheating or not in any way is impossible to say without know all the facts (and even with all the facts it could be a tough call) but it at the very least looks like it might not 100% 'clean'. Quite frankly there's probably little I can do about it other than what I have already done but I will look into it anyway. The very least we can do is when we send this list to Firaxis at least let them know of any curious circumstances in which they the ranking came into being and let them be the judge. This includes the current Polish situation but I have the feeling Gramphos wouldn't mind if we explained the Neanderthal situation as well

Well put. Personally, the thread on why the Poles should be in the game convinced me to forfeit my 20 points for the Spanish (who need no help staying in the top 16) and give them to the Polish. I would certainly like to see the Polish in an expansion pack, but not if it was solely because of cheating. All the people who made one vote with Poles +20 and the resulting increase of 10 places in one week ( ) does seem very suspicious, but there's really not much you can do about it. Rank discrimination is illegal in Apolyton (see the FAQ) so we can't say anything like "only Chieftans and up can vote", but I think explaining to Firaxis the situation and perhaps giving them the total number of points made by one-posters who voted for Poles +20 would be the best solution. Maybe you could get Mark to check out the email addresses of all these accounts to see if it's all from the same server or something.

I first became suspicious when I saw 4 posts in a row by Settlers who all said Poles +20 and on that page were over 100 votes for the Poles. Then came a long list of people whose only posts have been on this thread and the Why Poland Should Be Included thread, and whose votes were mostly Poles 20 (ALWAYS the first one listed in all these votes ) plus some Slavic/Formerly Soviet civs, sometimes with short, irrelevant comments and sometimes with a second or third post. Whoever is doing this is not doing a very good job.

[ranskaldan]

Locutus,

you haven't changed the Manchus in the original post yet.
As for the Poles.. I'm proud to say that I voted for them long before the Polish Spree started Time to hype the Koreans!

[RAF]

Portuguese - 20
Inca - 10
Celts - 10
Brazil - 20
Mongols - 20
Spanish - 20
Turks - 10
Dutch - 10
Khmer - 10
Hebrew - 10
Moors - 10
Nigeria - 5
Indonesia - 5

[borg]

Originally posted by Locutus
Borg,
You have 100 points left. BTW, is borg actually a Polish word/name or are you actually assimilated, like me?

Swedes 20
Ukrainians 20
Czech 20
Magyar/Hungarians 20
Native Americans/American Indians 20

[Solmyr]

Originally posted by Locutus
Solmyr,
I'm afraid you voted for 17 civs while 16 is the maximum. I'm afraid I can't count your vote like this...

Sorry about that. Change my votes to:

Byzantines 20
Ottoman Turks 20
Arabs 20
Vikings/Normans 15
Mongols 10
Spanish 5
Khmers 5
Incas 5
Maya 5
Koreans 5
Hebrews 5
Assyrians 5
Armenians 5
Georgians (the ones in the Caucasus) 5
Serbs 5
Bulgars 5

[jdd2007]

noooo.... dont vote for the byzantines...

[LoD]

Master Marcus, JellyDonut, Locutus et al. : Guess I owe you an explanation on the "Polish issue". First of all, I have not gone double-login crazy - these people are authentic (thogh I can not guarantee that someone has not gotten overzealous and used a DL, but those would be just single cases). The reason for this phenomena is because I have posted a message on pl.rec.gry.strategiczne (the Polish strategic discussion list, as you can deduct from the name ) containing information about this poll, and asking those Polish gamers who plan to buy Civ3 to vote according to what their patriotism tells them. So again, don't worry, these people vote because they want to see their favorite civ in the expansion (I have translated the rules etc. to Polish).
Later my "manifesto" was posted on my Civ3 site and civ3.prv.pl posted a news item on it. I must admit that the outcome went beyond my wildest dreams, and I am very happy to witness this situation.
Anyone, once again - these people are for 99% not fake, and are not some random Internet users, but people genuinely interested in Civ3. In other words, us Poles play fair .

LoD

PS. And thanks to all those non-Polish people who voted for Poland in this poll. Your gift is higly appreciated.

[LoD]

And Internationalist: If I would like to counter your arguments, first of all I would say that the Poles where the ones who gave the secrets of Enigma to the British, and Poland has more than 5 Nobel Prize winners. So that's about the "calibre" you presented, and I agree that its not enough alone to justify Poland's possible existence in the expansion. As much as I appreciate your support for our cause, IMHO I've put up much stronger arguments that your comparison ones. For further discussion I invite you to the "Why Poland SHOULD..." thread.

LoD

PS. I think you would find enough really patriotic people in any country, especially a country possesing as big a national heritage as Greece .

[Staszek]

Locutus, thank you for quoting my name so many times

Seriously, I would like to back up LoD. I started to dig the net in search for some Civ 3 news (can't wait!!!) and found LoD message about this forum and this poll. I also do not believe that people vote twice or more. LoD, why don't you check how many people visited your page with instruction? That would tell something, wouldn't?

As the LoD message called for 'patriots' and 'Civilization funs' to respond I responded immediately with vote for one civ (guess which one ). But as I do remember of my remaining 140 points to be distributed here are my votes:

Spanish +20 (its more justice than sympathy)
Arabs + 20 (although some may think they don't deserve this)
Carthaginians +20 (surprised they are not in the game already)
Polynesians +20
Assyrians +20
Turks +20
Israelis +5
Portuguese +5
Magyar +5
Huns +5

Frankly, we should suggest Firaxis to issue a DVD with expansion pack containing not 8 or 16 more civs but 32 or more. I would upgrade my PC with a DVD (don't have one yet) to see this beauty!

[LoD]

Staszek: in September, it has been openend more than 43 times (I don't have the exact figures for that one). In October, the page has been opened 75 times 'till 14:00 GMT today.
Also there is no record of how many times my post in pl.rec.gry.strategiczne has been read.

BTW, I don't think there will be a need for a DVD. I think 16 civs would easily fit in one CD . A propos, does anybody on how many CDs will Civ3 be sold?

[Dessloch]

Turks 20
Poles 20
Swedes 10

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Locutus
Actually, I plan to keep it open until the Neanderthals make it into the top 32

Noooooo!

Nah, as long as people are voting on a (more or less) daily basis I see no reason to close the poll (unless it goes on for a very, very long time...)

You could keep it open until MP is released , and after that send the list to Firaxis so they don't became restless.

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by Dessloch
Turks 20
Poles 20
Swedes 10

Another one!

[Kolobos]

Cannon fodderç WHAT !!
Grumwald in 1410 carnage myde by Polish- Latvians forces on "Krzyzacy"
Polish forces where comanded by Wladyslaw Jagiello
Enemy comander Urlich von Jungingen died in Battle

Jan III Sobieski in Wienna 1683, he used Polish best unit "Husaria" they were unstopable. He defended West Europ from Turks invasion their comander Kara Mustafa was defeted

Polish Sacrifice in World War II
Warsaw Uprising

Begining of Polish civilisation Many won wars with strong Germany and other Polish neighbors

polish special unit "GROM" They are catching now Murders from Balkans (Radovan Karadzic, Ratko mladic and many others) or they are already in Afganistan

I can find many more If you want
I will buy it (but it must work on Mac) and many of my friends will do it






Austro-Hungarians +20
Ukrainians -20

vote change

[Lumpkin]

MacTBone,

Thank you very much for your thoughts on the Fatty Lumpkin Civilization. I'm glad at least someone knows their history.

For others interested in the historical origin of Fatty Lumpkin culture read "Lord of the Rings" by JR Tolkien. Fatty Lumpkin was very striking character (a magical pony belonging to Tom Bombadil), crucial to the plot, who really brought to life the two sentences or so in which he was mentioned. However Fatty Lumpkin is more of a spiritual totem to the Fatty Lumpkins, the real leader is known simply as "Lumpkin" or alternatively "the Eternal Lump". Its all much more sophisticated than anything the Mongols or Vikings came up with as you can see.

You might also care to visit Lumpkin City, which is actually not a city at all but a small village near Atlanta in the United States.

first of all I would say that the Poles where the ones who gave the secrets of Enigma to the British,

Where the hell did you get that from LoD. The British broke the Enigma code by themselves thank you very much. As it happens there is a good, historically sound movie "Enigma" coming out now so I suggest you go and see it.

Poles and WW2 secret codes aside, I'm deeply shocked to see people are still voting for those ill-defined terms "Celts" and "Vikings".

[Kolobos]

Poles guerrillas Broke Enigma and this film is a Fiction I am sure
I can find more about it if you want Lumpkin

[lukasz]

vikings 20
sweden 10
vatykan or church country or athos in greece 10

[Ribannah]

My original vote:

Ethiopians 20
Dutch 20
Arabs 20
Incas 18
Vikings 15
Sioux 12
Spanish 10
Turks 9
Polynesians 8
Mongols 7
Hopi 6
Khmer 5
Ghanese 4
Tunguz 3
Inuit 2
Celts 1

My new vote:

Ethiopians 20
Dutch 20
Arabs 20
Mayas 20
Khmer 10
Ghanese 10
Australians 10
Brazilians 10

Which leaves me with 40 points for which, at the moment, I have no candidates.