Info: Diplomats and Spies (reference)

SlowThinker · January 10, 2001, 12:38

This is a spam

I started a special thread that tries to concentrate everything about Diplomats and Spies. Unfortunately, that thread exploits possibilities of html and there is html turned off in Civ2-Strategy forum. It is the reason I placed the thread to Civ2-General/Help/Community.

Reading "Civ2-Strategy/In response to the sabotage thing:" now, I noticed several people couldn't find that thread. (Sometimes, I just edit the first post and the thread come down to the second page) So, I place this post as the reference to the original.

This is a link to Civ2-General/Help/Community/Info: Diplomats and Spies
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 10, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · January 11, 2001, 07:01

No ST, not spam - a valuable reference - thank you!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

La Fayette · January 11, 2001, 09:20

I was about to start a thread mentioning ST's great thread about dips and spies. He did it himself and he was right to do so.
Read it, folks!... and help testing what remains to be tested, if you have got some energy left.
I got bored bribing and was really about to stop for a while. But I decided yesterday that it was a bit too soon and I bribed a lot last night (with almost all results OK with ST's).
So here are my personal acknowledgements in the field of bribing cities:
1) Winkler gave the formula (without explaining how to measure distances and with an error about Dmax).
2) Xin Yu explained roughly how to measure distances.
3) Slowthinker explains very clearly how to measure distances (in particular rounding down the results) and corrects the error of Winkler about Dmax.
There is one problem left, as far as I am concerned, which is about some results obtained in the case of bribing a city without capital. I tell you if I manage to solve it.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

La Fayette · January 11, 2001, 09:48

For those of you not willing to post on forum #1, here are two problems yet partly unsolved in ST's great thread, and my own feelings or results:
1) Bribing barb units:
ST mentions a price close to twice the number of shields needed to build the unit. I agree with his formula in the early game, but I have experienced prices much higher than that in mid game (eg 124g for a legion).
Does anyone know when this happens?
2) Sabotaging with dips:
My feeling is that dips
- destroy the unit under building (if there are shields in the box),
- then destroy improvements other than walls,
- then destroy walls.
Has anyone tested that?

Scouse Gits · January 11, 2001, 10:59

La Fayette - your point 2 - I know it feels like that, but it simply ain't so - a bit of save and reload will assure you that it is possible to bring down the walls with a first attack - just damnably unlikely...

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

SlowThinker · January 11, 2001, 11:38

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by La Fayette on 01-11-2001 08:48 AM</font>
1) Bribing barb units:
ST mentions a price close to twice the number of shields needed to build the unit. I agree with his formula in the early game, but I have experienced prices much higher than that in mid game (eg 124g for a legion).
Does anyone know when this happens?

I took up that formula from the "bribing non-barb units" thread.
William Keenan had similar opinion to yours at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001488-2.html#49

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by La Fayette on 01-11-2001 08:48 AM</font>
2) Sabotaging with dips:
My feeling is that dips
- destroy the unit under building (if there are shields in the box),
- then destroy improvements other than walls,
- then destroy walls.
Has anyone tested that?

I am able to believe that probability is egal for everything (improvements and production)
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 11, 2001).]

SlowThinker · January 31, 2001, 09:50

bump
Some news in Info: dips and spies thread

BTW, what "bump" means? I used it to put this thread on top of the forum now, but I don't know if it is the original meaning.

La Fayette · January 31, 2001, 12:25

Good news ST:
I have decided not to get bored testing yet.
Would like to know EXACTLY how it works

La Fayette · January 31, 2001, 12:35

BTW congratulations!
I notice that we both became warlords to day! (though we are probably not the bloodiest warmongers in this forum).
Cheers! (warlord sounds definitely better than chieftain)

SlowThinker · February 1, 2001, 01:21

La Fayette,
My personality is similar to yours: I like to know things EXACTLY too. But I am TOO bored now...

About "warlords": look here:
Apolyton: # of Posts, who cares?

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 31, 2001).]

La Fayette · February 1, 2001, 12:43

ST Don't take it too seriously!
e=mc2 is quite short...
and I am not keen at all on castes or social classes.
It is only the sound of the word warlord compared to chieftain (seems more melodious to me).
(Being serious I would say that the main drawback with this system is that some people don't even read what you write if you sign settler: how many people have really read '3 arrows'?).

I know you have!

SlowThinker · February 1, 2001, 17:43

I have investigated Apolyton for threads concerning dips-spies: I included new parts into "Info: diplomats and spies".

Grigor · February 1, 2001, 19:03

I hesitate to bring this up after so much great work, but I seem to recall (from the manual?) that the number of remaining movement points had an effect on diplomatic success rates. Were all your experiments conducted on spies/dips with identical initial situations? The most effective position would seem to be a spy beginning on a road one square outside the hapless soon-to-be-suborned city (remaining movement: 2 2/3), and the least effective would have only 1/3 of a point remaining. If there were in fact a difference between those two positions, new tests would probably have to be done over the full range of 8 initial movement conditions...

SlowThinker · February 1, 2001, 19:45

That work was ever refined by bringing corrections up.

You are welcome.

Do you mean bribing cities only?
Did you do any test?

BTW, didn't you forget 3 remaining movement? It may be dangerous to wait beside unit/city of other civ, but it may happen.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 01, 2001).]

Grigor · February 1, 2001, 20:15

For bribing cities the distance of the diplomat/spy from the capitol of the enemy is a factor, meaning that the cost may vary depending on the direction from which the bribe attempt comes. I do not know if the distance from the enemy capitol is a factor for sabotage.

I know that investigating a city requires a movement point expenditure, and I believe that sabotage also requires movement point expenditure, presumably before the sabotage attempt can proceed. In that case the maximum available would be 2 2/3 if the spy began on a road adjacent to the city, and the minimum zero if the spy had used her last movement point to enter into saboteuristic activities. So there would be 9 possible movement point remainders upon initiation of sabotage.

I suspect that the available movement only affects the chances for escape.

My original suggestion was to test a small sample with a wildly different movement point remainder to see if there is any difference in post-sabotage survival rate. That would tell us if there were a need for more testing over the full movement-point-remainder spectrum.

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--grigor

SlowThinker · February 1, 2001, 21:04

quote:

Originally posted by Grigor on 02-01-2001 07:15 PM
I do not know if the distance from the enemy capitol is a factor for sabotage.

We suppose that isn't. Nobody tested it.

quote:

Originally posted by Grigor on 02-01-2001 07:15 PM
In that case the maximum available would be 2 2/3 if the spy began on a road adjacent to the city, and the minimum zero if the spy had used her last movement point to enter into saboteuristic activities. So there would be 9 possible movement point remainders upon initiation of sabotage.
I suspect that the available movement only affects the chances for escape.

I am not sure if it works so logically.
If I remember well, Investigating a city costs a spy 1/3 of movement point: Spy use this 1/3 of movement point to get into and to get out.

quote:

Originally posted by Grigor on 02-01-2001 07:15 PM
My original suggestion was to test a small sample with a wildly different movement point remainder to see if there is any difference in post-sabotage survival rate. That would tell us if there were a need for more testing over the full movement-point-remainder spectrum.

Could you try some tests? You could add results to "Poisoning and sabotaging" thread.

SlowThinker · February 2, 2001, 01:27

3 arrows strategy:
One day I will think the problem over and post there. It is quite complicated, if you want apply the idea not only to camels.

La Fayette · February 2, 2001, 10:51

Grigor
Welcome to the TESTERS CLUB!
(I won't be a member next week though, busy playing as the English and dreaming about a magnum of "I don't know what").