New Cleopatra

JellyDonut · August 17, 2001, 17:15

If you look at the Civ of the Week at http://www.civ3.com , there is a new Cleopatra image probably created because of the talk of the Negro Cleopatra as a myth. Her skin is not as dark and apparently her expression has changed too so she no longer looks like she wants to kill you

. Is this new Cleopatra "historically correct" or at least better than the old one?

Footie Mad · August 17, 2001, 17:23

Yeah but it is in matters like these that the community can make a difference so

to those of you who complanied!

Bereta_Eder · August 17, 2001, 17:26

Yeah, I noticed that too!

I don;t really know if it's correct yet.

Let's see:

Cleopatra was the descendant of Ptolemeans which were the descendants of Macedonians which were the descendants of the people of the Argos region in Greece.

So she should be more white than that unless the Ptolemeans intermixed with Egyptians...

ancient · August 17, 2001, 18:02

yay she looked like some evil creature before (not because of the color but all around)

monkspider · August 17, 2001, 18:13

Does anyone still have a pic of the old Cleopatra around? For comparison purposes.

monkspider · August 17, 2001, 18:36

Here we go, you can view the old Cleopatra HERE

compared to the new one here

Pretty significant changes methinks

Bereta_Eder · August 17, 2001, 19:12

Yep, it's crystal clear!!!

Our voice has been heard!

BTW, The difference in expressions is without doubt two different instances in the spectrum of emotions of a leader in the diplomatic screen.

Juggernaut · August 17, 2001, 19:15

Did the Firaxis crew really think she was black first? Embarrasing...

Bereta_Eder · August 17, 2001, 19:56

Quote:

Originally posted by uncle_funk
Did the Firaxis crew really think she was black first? Embarrasing...

Maybe they tried to be "politically correct" by having more "african" leaders... (only the zulus are now african and that means 15 out of 16 leaders are not).

But they stumbled upon the very historically informed Apolytoners

HisMajestyBOB · August 17, 2001, 21:37

She looks more femine now, looking at her first screenshot I thought she was Ramsese

Bereta_Eder · August 17, 2001, 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
She looks more femine now, looking at her first screenshot I thought she was Ramsese

Me too!!!

And so did a lot of others too as I remember from the thread civ included.

Dr. Nick · August 17, 2001, 21:58

Ah, that nose!

Bereta_Eder · August 17, 2001, 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by El Awrence
Ah, that nose!

Are you ok Panoramix?

tniem · August 18, 2001, 02:54

I think the pic of the Egyptian phaorah in the screen shot is of Ramses. I think there is a possibility that Firaxis was still debating which one to use so they made mock art of both.

They decided on Cleopatra. I mean look at that picture not only is the color wrong but featurewise, there isn't a woman to be seen in the pic.

Buck Birdseed · August 18, 2001, 03:36

Oh, come on, tniem, it's quite clearly the same person in those two screenshots. Since when does Ramses have plucked eyebrows and Liz Taylor makeup? Naw, same face in a less angry stance, made about two shades blander. Historically accurate, probably, but boring as well. Bad choice, Firaxis!

(They should have picked Hatshepsut anyway, much more interesting than this Blancka.)

Zor · August 18, 2001, 07:56

I must say it is a very nice improvement. The first one did look rather um....manly. But I was hoping to see Ramsese.

Solver · August 18, 2001, 08:57

The old Cleo didn't look like real one at all.

Laszlo · August 19, 2001, 15:41

I'm not really seeing her legendary beauty in this shot. Her eyebrows are really high!

General Ludd · August 19, 2001, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
The old Cleo didn't look like real one at all.

When did you get a chance to meet her?

Sorry, seems a funny thing to say about someone who died a couple thousand years ago.

Bereta_Eder · August 19, 2001, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Osweld

When did you get a chance to meet her?

Asterix.

tniem · August 20, 2001, 01:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Snapcase
Oh, come on, tniem, it's quite clearly the same person in those two screenshots. Since when does Ramses have plucked eyebrows and Liz Taylor makeup? Naw, same face in a less angry stance, made about two shades blander. Historically accurate, probably, but boring as well. Bad choice, Firaxis!

(They should have picked Hatshepsut anyway, much more interesting than this Blancka.)

Well every depiction of Egyptian leader I have seen have the plucked pointy eyebrows. They all seem to have some degree of femine quality to them in the pics at least.

But your probably right I guess. They just don't in my eyes look all that similar.

MarkG · August 20, 2001, 04:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Osweld
Sorry, seems a funny thing to say about someone who died a couple thousand years ago.

you know, there are some people whose job have to do with that thing called "history". well, these guys tend to find things that some other people who lived a long time ago have left behind. and in some cases they get to gather information from this stuff, from what kind of knowledge the other people had to how certain people looked like....

Hasdrubal · August 20, 2001, 05:47

Thumbs up to Firaxis!

This is much closer to what Cleopatra must have looked like. A pitch dark Cleopatra makes as much sense as a blond, blue-eyed Jesus. Objections about a black Cleopatra have got nothing to do with racial awarness, just with a concern for historical accuracy. I'm happy now

Wernazuma III · August 20, 2001, 07:10

IMHO, Cleopatra is still too dark. It's told she had quite pale skin

Laszlo · August 21, 2001, 02:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
The old Cleo didn't look like real one at all.

Quote:

Originally posted by Osweld

When did you get a chance to meet her?

Sorry, seems a funny thing to say about someone who died a couple thousand years ago.

Rulers of great civilizations usually have their likeness either painted or carved in stone. And I know that there is a Cleopatra statue.

Of course, their "likeness" could be anything the royalty wanted it to be, though since Cleo was renowned for her beauty, we can be pretty sure she wasn't fat and balding like some of the other pharaohs.

Skanky Burns · August 21, 2001, 05:10

I think its interesting that in the picture of the black Cleopatra, the advisor is saying "I doubt this will be accepted..."

Its almost as if Firaxis knew...

Stefan Härtel · August 21, 2001, 05:14

That Cleo rather looks like a queen from the XXIV or XXV dynasties, or like a queen of Ethiopia at all.
IMHO, the guys at Firaxis should've chosen a different leader in the first place. Of 3,000 years of the Egyptian civilization they chose a) the very last one and b) a ruler who did not even have true impact on the history of her country and was, politcally seen, actually just an object of the delights of people like Julius Caesar and Marcus Antonius (Yes, I know, this is VERY harsh and politically uncorrect).

A female leader is fine, but then, why didn't they choose Hatshepsut? She belonged to the XVIII dynasty that was the most powerfull one in the entire history of Egypt; they could've chosen Tuthmosis I. or III., Amenophis II. or Akhenaton for a change. Of course, Ramses II. does it as well (for a change maybe Ramses III. wouldn't have been bad either).

Fact is that Cleopatra was Greek, thus white, and to go even further, perhaps she followed the Greek ideal of beauty, and this way she must've been pale as chalk because the Greeks didn't really think the same way about color tones as we do-dark-skinned was considered as unattractive, propably because all the slaves and socially lower workers had to work in the sun and thus became a bit darker...

I know this post isn't entirely politcally correct

, but you have to make a point somewhere.

Adm.Naismith · August 21, 2001, 09:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
I know this post isn't entirely politcally correct

, but you have to make a point somewhere.

It would be silly to confuse politically correctness with historical facts (I assume your statement are correct, of course

).

Political correctness and some popular believe give us Joanna D'Arc as France leader - she never ruled France AFAIK, but surely she was an icon for France. Where is Napoleon the Emperor? Where is King Louis XIV, le Roi Soleil?

It's a bit like for an Italian leader they will chose Giuseppe Garibaldi, italian hero, great general that fighted for freedom in south america and to unite the Italy, but definitelly never a King or President of Italy

Stefan Härtel · August 21, 2001, 10:58

Jeanne d'Arc???
OK, I understand they don't want to include Napoleon (I like him nonetheless), but how about Louis XIV, Charlemange, Napoleon III, Saint Louis, whoever... Why Jeanne d'Arc?

static · August 21, 2001, 12:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Laszlo

Rulers of great civilizations usually have their likeness either painted or carved in stone. And I know that there is a Cleopatra statue.

Of course, their "likeness" could be anything the royalty wanted it to be, though since Cleo was renowned for her beauty, we can be pretty sure she wasn't fat and balding like some of the other pharaohs.

Perhaps you should check out this article... http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20010326/cleo.html