Praise to Korn469 & to Apolyton!

[The Mad Viking]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but...

Anyone take a look at the SHORT LIST and compare it to the changes in CIV3?



I'm very impressed. I recall Korn's excellent and tireless work at the time the SHORT LIST was prepared, and I find it remarkable how much appears to have been incorporated into CIV3.

I think the brutal chopping of the list down was extremely difficult and at times divisive, but ultimately led to a very effective method of communicating to Firaxis.

So while I doling out the praise-
Praise to Firaxis, for listening!

[CapTVK]

While you're busy giving credit where's credit due...don't you forget someone very important? Like the one who did the main list in the first place?

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by CapTVK
While you're busy giving credit where's credit due...don't you forget someone very important? Like the one who did the main list in the first place?

yes.

THANK YOU ANONOMYOUS MAN.

[Colon™]

And how about me? I supported Horsie in his calls to abolish mountain cities.

Horsie himself should, of course, also get some praise.

[korn469]

The Mad Viking and CapTVK

no one person is directly responsible for any of the lists to come out of apolyton...yin did assemble the first buglist for SMAC back at the old owo forums and that list led to the first and second revisions of the The List here, but without the community yin wouldn't have had much to send firaxis

without Raingoon's colaboration i wouldn't have even bothered to start on the EC3 list, and to remain impartial i didn't submit any ideas of my own for consideration in the EC3 list (though i did debate many of the topics, as did many others)

also without MarkG and DanQ neither The List nor the EC3 list would have seen the light of day

however i have noticed many game features listed EC3 list cropping up in civ3, and while it may all be coincidence i really hope that the fans did help shape civ3 at least to some extent

when civ3 finally comes out i plan on doing an EC3 retrospective for the article section comparing how close the game came to fulfilling the EC3 list...then i also plan on organizing a new EC3-X list for the civ3 expansion...locutus has already organized a fine list of civilizations to be in the Civ3 Expansion...however in addition to more civs i think that C3X will probably be like SMACX and introduce new techs, units, buildings, and other items, and that is what the EC3-X list will be for, but i don't think we can really ask for any other new features (besides what we have already asked for) in civ3 till we have actually played the game...so i don't think there should be any more feature lists until the game actually comes out

[ancient]

Originally posted by Colon
And how about me? I supported Horsie in his calls to abolish mountain cities.

Horsie himself should, of course, also get some praise.

no, i dont give krazy any recognition for that I WANT MOUNTAIN CITYS! WTF is that???? There are citys on mountains!

[KrazyHorse]

Don't blame me; Horsie=Alexander's Horse, KH=KrazyHorse

[Urban Ranger]

No cities on mountains? That has to be one of the most ridiculous thing I have heard.

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
take a look at the SHORT LIST

where?

[TechWins]

where?

Go to http://www.apolyton.com/civ3/ and look at downloads. There you will see the option to download the lists.

[Nikolai]

Actually, I don't think a 400(or something) pages long document are "short" , but the list IS good!!! The first thing I did when I began to come to Apolyton regulary, was to download the list v2, and, believe it or not, I read about half of it!!! '

I know, I'm crazy... but it was so interesting!

[Adm.Naismith]

As Korn469 mentioned AFAIK the short list is in fact the Essential Civ3 List of Fixes and New Ideas, in short EC3.

You can't find it in download area, but any search into the Forum Area "Civ3 - The list of ideas for Firaxis" will let you find the whole history about it.

My best help for a shortcut is to read this Final Voting Result thread, browse it until you find all the link to the proposed enhancement.

BTW, so far I don't have the feeling Firaxis really used it (of course we should wait until the release of the game will turn every card Firaxis has still covered...).

Let's try a first overview.

List of FIXES (more related to a "conservative sequel") sorted in order of votes received:

1. Trade - 105 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
2. Diplomacy - 86 ACCEPTED
3. Make It Harder For Civs To Last - 73 NOT CONFIRMED
4. Comprehensive Scenario Editor - 72 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
5. Improved Road & Rail Rules - 72 UNKNOW

Others Receiving Votes:

6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW
7. No more Instant City Conversions - 52 ACCEPTED
8. Amazing City Veiw - 42 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
9. Faster Smoother Graphics/Interface - 35 TO BE CHECKED
10. Multiplayer Startup Option - 26 UNKNOW

List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:

1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED
2. Domestic Politics - 63 REJECTED
3. New Modes of Victory - 52 NOT NEAR AS PROPOSED
4. Energy - 48 REJECTED
5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED
5. Religion - 46 REJECTED

Others Receiving Votes:

7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW
8. Expanding City Radius - 43 REJECTED (only borders change)
9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW
10. Hex Based Map - 40 REJECTED
11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36 REJECTED
11. Different Levels of Cities - 36 REJECTED
13. Recruitment System - 29 REJECTED
14. Automatic Patrolling - 23 UNKNOW
15. Tourism - 20 UNKNOW

So far, and considering that I tried to count as ACCEPTED also proposed features that seems a bit different from the Civ3 announced, I only note a success of proposed "Fix", while nothing seems to have been really accepted from the "New idea" bunch.

Once again, I'll wait the korn469 EC3 retrospective before to write a final comment on this argument.

Disclaimer: please double check by your own, because I quickly browse the EC3 proposal, while sometimes I only used my old memories.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Sine this is a 'conservative sequel' it can be cosidered that Firaxis listened a lot.

What they should do now is a CIV III Mod that would be a whole new game on CIV III game engine, and that would incorporate new ideas. I would like to see the unit workshop from SMAC as well and a science system geard towards the development of tools, and skills that enable you to build components. Assembly would be let to the player.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW

Known. I remember Dan saying in this form that the newspaper would be coming back.

List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:

1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED

Of course one could argue that Golden Ages are in a way the way Firaxis has made Rise and Fall of empires work. And in my opinion I think it is a very good way.

4. Energy - 48 REJECTED

Don't remember this one.

5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED

But accepted partially.

Others Receiving Votes:

7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW

Never really expected.

9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW

Replay is in. I guess it is unknown just how detailed it is.

11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36 REJECTED

Jeff said that it is in, in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ltaneous+Turns


So it appears that Firaxis has at least incorporated some of the ideas that they thought would make the game more fun. And overall, it appears that they did at least read the list.

[ancient]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Don't blame me; Horsie=Alexander's Horse, KH=KrazyHorse

sorry..... damn now im confused

[tniem]

Originally posted by ancient
sorry..... damn now im confused

It is very simple. The Horsie that Colon was refering to was 'the' Horsie, Mr. Alexander's Horse. The man responsible for not having mountain cities. The man responsible for multiple spam threads. The man responsible for a new child coming into this world. The man that turned ACS Community into a flame thread over not having him in FoA. And that is only in the last couple of weeks.

Meanwhile you said KrazyHorse. Another posteer. Albeit a newer and less famous one that incoporates the Horse name into his handle.

[Colon™]

When I mentioned Horsie I was talking about Alexander’s Horse, but I forgot there are other “Horses” in this forum, sorry.

Besides, I was just kidding anyway.

[Jon Miller]

IIRC expanding city radius is in

Jon Miller

[Adm.Naismith]

tniem, thanks for your help remembering me some info, but I'm afraid some of your point are still to be proved right

Originally posted by tniem

quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW

Known. I remember Dan saying in this form that the newspaper would be coming back.

Correct. But until finally confirmed I take every early info with a bit of salt. If in doubt, ask yourself ten times: "where are minor civ and economic victory announced early?"

quote:

List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:

1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED

Of course one could argue that Golden Ages are in a way the way Firaxis has made Rise and Fall of empires work. And in my opinion I think it is a very good way.

Golden age is an interesting concept added, and I'm waiting to see it at work. Still is completely different from the description of "Rise and Fall point", IMHO. Please check by yourself.

quote:

5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED

But accepted partially.

IMHO no, because they simply adopt the same "half baked" stack methode they already used in SMAC. Players asked for a better system.

quote:

Others Receiving Votes:

7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW

Never really expected.

I agree on a personal opinion, still we are speaking about the Firaxis acceptance of EC3 list: I'm not considering only the proposals I liked

quote:

9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW
Replay is in. I guess it is unknown just how detailed it is.

Same of my reply at point 6: true, but still to be seen on final announce.

quote:

11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36 REJECTED
Jeff said that it is in, in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ultaneous+Turns

Sorry, no. As far as I understand Jeff mentioned a simultaneous turn movement (kind of RTS, stepped by turns when you end your units movement points). I guess that because of others posts mentioning they hidden this system in Civ II multiplayer, too.

I (it was indeed a mine proposal, shared with ChrisShaffer) proposed a Simultaneous Turn Execution of prefetched orders.
Please read the final explanation of concept ChrisShaffer and me did for the EC3.

So it appears that Firaxis has at least incorporated some of the ideas that they thought would make the game more fun. And overall, it appears that they did at least read the list.

Most probably they read it, but they don't seem to have used it a lot... Don't take it as a rant against Firaxis (none intended the EC3 list as an order to them ), but so far I'm not really conviced our efforts really made any relevant difference on Firaxis plan and game design.

Let me put this in plain words: many of us hoped a bit more from the wish List (long and short edition) that the humble "if only two ideas..." introduce it

[tniem]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
Golden age is an interesting concept added, and I'm waiting to see it at work. Still is completely different from the description of "Rise and Fall point", IMHO. Please check by yourself.

I agree, totally different from what was proposed. But it is obvious that they were going for a conservative sequel and that to get rise and fall in without changing the whole game would require something new. Depending on how Golden Ages work it could at least add the Rise part. And then the fall just happens naturally as other nations rise above you.

IMHO no, because they simply adopt the same "half baked" stack methode they already used in SMAC. Players asked for a better system.

Fair enough.

I agree on a personal opinion, still we are speaking about the Firaxis acceptance of EC3 list: I'm not considering only the proposals I liked

Oh I would loved to see open source AI, I just didn't think it was too practical. Basically giving any other company that wants to make a turn based game access to what Firaxis did. I just didn't think that it was likely.

Sorry, no. As far as I understand Jeff mentioned a simultaneous turn movement (kind of RTS, stepped by turns when you end your units movement points). I guess that because of others posts mentioning they hidden this system in Civ II multiplayer, too.

The way I thought he was discussing it was the SMAC way. Where both players in MP move at the same time. I see the way your talking about is how Stars used to do it and apparently the way MOO3 is going to do it. Interesting concept, but I still believe that they have incorporated a way of Simultaneous turns, just not the one you summarized.

Most probably they read it, but they don't seem to have used it a lot... Don't take it as a rant against Firaxis (none intended the EC3 list as an order to them ), but so far I'm not really conviced our efforts really made any relevant difference on Firaxis plan and game design.

It appears to me that they did look at what you, Korn, and other proposed. What they decided though was that they were going to make a conservative game. And then they tried to implement these proposals in a way that would fit with the game they were making.

Let me put this in plain words: many of us hoped a bit more from the wish List (long and short edition) that the humble "if only two ideas..." introduce it

I understand and I would like to say that I as well wished more proposals were accepted. I have said many times before that I am worried that I will tire of Civ III very fast. So I wish more radical changes were taken. But since the title was "If only two ideas...", I think Firaxis probably did fufil our wish/demand.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by tniem
So I wish more radical changes were taken. But since the title was "If only two ideas...", I think Firaxis probably did fufil our wish/demand.

So we should bash Yin26 for a ruinous choice, as he did with the SimGolf suggestion to Sid?

[tniem]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
So we should bash Yin26 for a ruinous choice, as he did with the SimGolf suggestion to Sid?

Of course and since he has stopped posting he might not even say anything about it.

[The Mad Viking]

Korn, you are too modest --->

I did also say praise Apolyton- meaning all contributors and especially Mark & Dan.

I agree special mention should go to Raingoon (wherever he is) and to Yin.

And to disbelievers- show me another game sequel where 10% of the degree of input was derived from gameplayers in this way.

I believe what happened here was truly remarkable. The idea of condensing everything into an essential list of 10 items was critical to the success, and the sheer work involved in pulling it off was staggering.

Thanks again!

[yin26]

Just some background for you:

Version 2 of The List (a 500 page, structured document that incorporated feedback from the then 'official' Firaxis forums) was sent to Firaxis. Chris Pine (their AI programmer and major leader of the Civ3 project) printed, bound and tabbed that document. It was titled "The Big Book of Yin and Co."

In an email to me, Chris noted that the 'book' had been passed around and around and around the office with great interest. He made special note that the "Cheats" section led by Ming provided them a lot of surprises...stuff they never even knew could be done in the game. He also noted that all sections were read and discussed carefully.

This was LONG before the essential list and, indeed, formed the core of any essential list discussion that would follow many many weeks later. Thus, The List was sent early enough in the design phase of Civ3 while anything was still possible. The essential list was more or less a recap of what had already been submitted. While I'm in no way taking sole credit for this effort since numerous people led and hundreds contributed, your "special mention" is rather pathetic. Nor, however, am I taking anything away from the essential list, which no doubt helped reaffirm several things to Firaxis.

Perhaps you just didn't know the background. Now you do. When the time comes, I'm sure somebody will comb through The List and show you just what a profound effect it had on Civ3. In fact, that might be a good project for YOU to do...

[korn469]

posted by Yin
While I'm in no way taking sole credit for this effort since numerous people led and hundreds contributed, your "special mention" is rather pathetic.

posted by korn469
yin did assemble the first buglist for SMAC back at the old owo forums and that list led to the first and second revisions of the The List here, but without the community yin wouldn't have had much to send firaxis

Yin, if this was directed at me i then I applogize because I certainly didn't mean to slight you. I summarized the radical Ideas thread one time, and Raingoon did it next. Just that one little part of The List was certainly time consuming. I know that throughout the entire effort you were there, both setting list policy, and trying your best to keep everything organized and on track. I do not know how many hours you put into both versions of The List but I do know that it was probably more than anyother person involved (easily hundred of hours). This was just you volunteering your time and effort, in the hopes that civ3 would be a little better. Many of the people helping you had things come up, and had to quit; you could have said "screw this! i give up" but you never did, you saw it through from start to finish. I know this, and so do many many others. When I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be trouble, just because I know that you cannot say anyone person should take all of the credit for the any of the various lists made by the community, first it's untrue, and second it has the potential to make people feel very unappreciated. In my post that is exactly what I was trying to show. If you feel that I insulted you that I am truly sorry Yin. Looking back I could have reworded it so it wouldn't sound like I was completely downplaying your effort, but it was just a quick post, trying to show how things come around. I have always deeply respected all of your efforts to make SMAC and Civ3 the best games possible Yin.

Thinking back, I think that Raingoon and I asked you to organize the EC3 list, but you said you were taking a break from making lists.

As for the success of all the various lists, it all depends on how we measure success...the best way was stated long ago by you Yin

Along the way, we informally adopted a philosophy about this project. I call it "IF JUST ONE IDEA…": If just one idea from the hundreds contained here makes it into Civilization III, we will know this was all well worth the effort

by that measurement each one of the various Lists will prove to be successful.

[Wittlich]

Yin may be in a self-imposed exile, but he is always here...lurking in the shadows...waiting to strike at a moments notice!

[yin26]

Korn:

I greatly appreciate your post. Actually, I was in no way offended by your previous statement. The fact is I'm often torn in situations like this...should I step up and talk about MY time spent on the lists? Well, that would seem a bit self-serving. At the same time, it IS important to me that people remember that things don't "just happen," and even if my role was more of a leadership/secretarial one, it was vital. I talk a bit more about this in my upcoming interview, so I'll leave it here for now.

But none of us (I don't think) want any kind of public praise on an individual basis. When all is said and done, APOLYTON did an outstanding and unprecedented thing with our lists. I am 100% convinced that Civ 3 is a much better game than it would have been otherwise thanks to the input from this community. As you noted, therefore, it's a slippery slope to start trying to give credit to any one person or a small group. WE did all that work, and WE should be damn proud!

As for you, Korn, I think your contributions to Civ 3 have been simply outstanding. It made me very happy, for example, when I was able to get you back in here by reviving your excellent ICS thread. I, for one, am not always very good at analyzing the nuts and bolts of things. I'm a great concept guy...but your ability to get under the hood and talk about small details in lucid, through-provoking ways has no doubt greatly affected elements of Civ 3 and our community.

Finally, yes you guys did ask me to lead the essential list effort, but I was truly so damn tired and worn out at that point. The fact that you guys ran with it and saw it to such an excellent conclusion makes it even more clear to me that Apolyton has gone way above and beyond the call of duty to try to help the development of Civ3.

As you rightly noted, there can be NO doubt that at least one idea was taken from these boards and put in the game. Mission Complete.

Wittlich: Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.

[korn469]

hey i found this over at civ fanatics it's apparently a newly discovered old interview with Sid and Jeff there is one little thing that i think we will find interesting though

PCG: Who made the new ideas going into this new project?

Sid: Everybody has a new idea as to what should be done; there’s no shortage of ideas. It’s more of what we shouldn’t put in the game (chuckles).

Jeff Briggs: Right. For example, we got from this site on the web dedicated to Civ II a document of all the things they wanted to see in Civ III, [as well as] lots of fan email daily about what people want to see. I think the biggest thing, that Sid sort of alluded to, was that we like this game. The idea that Sid designed the original – that this was our game anyway. We all really enjoyed the game, and all had ideas as to what we wanted to try out. It’s not a burden [in terms of meeting public demand]; the great thing about being us is that we make the games we want to play.

so it looks like The List made an impression

check out the interview here

http://www.pcgamer.com/eyewitness/ey...001-08-22.html

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Wittlich
Yin may be in a self-imposed exile, but he is always here...lurking in the shadows...waiting to strike at a moments notice!

Yes, I know he's probably lurking.
I don't use to make light, friendly joke about someone, as that about Yin answering machine or Yin bashing for asking "only one idea", if he is not around to defende himself

[The Mad Viking]

Well, Yin, I'm sorry that I offended you. I'm sorry I mentioned Korn, and sorry that I patheticly mentioned you. I'm sorry that I wasn't here for the first list. I'm sorry that I remember Korn's work on the EC3 so vividly, and I'm sorry that it left such an impression on me.

I don't imagine we would ever have had EC3 without the BIG LIST. I happen to believe that EC3 was more effective than the BIG LIST, even though the BIG LIST was, more work, and, well, bigger. It's my personal opinion is that 500 page documents get passed around and eventually filed, and one page summaries get used. I'm sorry if this opinion offends you.

I'm happy that you posted and set the record straight. It was certainly not my intention to slight you, and I can understand how my posting did slight your work. I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned Korn.

I certainly agree with you that this is an significant Apolyton achievement, and my thread was simply my bumbling attempt to point this out.