Early wonder signs

Bereta_Eder · February 1, 2001, 18:12

Isn't the program supposed to warn you when other civs are ready to build a wonder the next turn?

In my current game I missed Leo and Adam although I had the money to buy them just because nobody deemed it worthwile to inform me about the other's progress.

Another point of interest: the change of civ's capital.

I had a very ugly start at this game. On the south pole with half the squares iced. Population and everything else besides literacy was really down. I was 5th or 6th in all.

Bearly all the civs started to change their capitals again and again. When I picked up on population and became 1st they stoppped. Safety mechanism so the let you catch up?

East Street Trader · February 1, 2001, 20:19

I've had that wonder building out of the blue thing every now and then. Sometimes it happens when an AI has to make a late switch or when it has been simultaneously building the same wonder in two or three cities. But sometimes it just happens for no apparent reason at all.

I have a feeling it happens more with one or two particular wonders than with others. Can't pin down the ones I've noticed it on tho' (I've not been building many wonders lately).

I've also seen the mad persistent capital changes thing. I am confident that there are balancing factors to help a human player who lags just as there are balancing cheats to make the life of the human player more difficult when he leads. But I doubt that's one. I don't think it costs the AI civs anything. It happens so often they just couldn't have the money/shields to sustain it. Think that's just a minor bug.

Bereta_Eder · February 1, 2001, 21:48

Thanks EST.

ABout the capital changes, I traded maps with nearly all civs and I see that most of them are highly centralised, very compact.
Nearly each of them has a big continent with 15 or so cities and no one has a city that is far away from the land mass.

I agree that shields would not be enough for this continuous capital shifting. The Mongols have only 4 cities (in 1800...) and their capital must have changed 4 times very rapidly in the early days.

East Street Trader · February 2, 2001, 07:01

Hell, paiktis, watch out man. They've ALL got a big continent and as many as 15 cities down! And you had an ugly start!

This game is going to take some winning. Have you got much trade going? Is an OCC type strategy, hide in the background and go for science, science and more science, an option? Will you have enough shields for the space race?

Scouse Gits · February 2, 2001, 07:38

Just a thought - it is possible that the AI occasionally sends in a caravan to help build the wonder!
---------
SG(2)

East Street Trader · February 2, 2001, 08:37

Or, I suppose it may hit the rush build key.

But I doubt these options are a part of ordinary programming decision making.

The A1 assuredly changes its production to meet emergencies and changing circs. Post espionage I often send a spy round just to keep my scouting up to date and to peer into the A1's cities. It gives away shields prodigiously, being just a move or two away from completing a factory but deciding it really needs yet another useless cavalry unit. And we have all seen the mongols armour rolling out of its cities one split second after they get the requisite tech.

But I doubt the programming is up to routinely making a decision on rush building or using a caravan.

Still suspect it is part of some "balancing" exercise.

Acknowledge tho', that if it happened in paiktis' current game (where he's behind) that is a big pointer against this proposition.

There are current suggestions that the A! combat programming may be just a tad better than sometimes thought. If it is up to using caravans and rush building wonders we have definately been slagging the designers off too vigorously.

Bereta_Eder · February 2, 2001, 09:57

quote:

Originally posted by East Street Trader on 02-02-2001 06:01 AM
Hell, paiktis, watch out man. They've ALL got a big continent and as many as 15 cities down! And you had an ugly start!

This game is going to take some winning.

I really wish this was the case EST. That way I would not think about quiting because of boredom.

Alas, my victory is inevitable. It's 1900 I have 14 cities, 19 size in average, Hoover Dam, 14 factories, a bunch of other wonders, and I am way ahead in technology.
And the AI seems to have suffered an accute fit of entropia because the only visits I get is from some sorry frigates. The introvertness is explained by the fact that the greeks are higher in the powergraph than me (russians) and this makes things only easier.

That's why I'll switch once and for all to Deity and may be I should get more organised and play multiplayer more.

Thoth · February 2, 2001, 10:36

quote:

Originally posted by East Street Trader on 02-02-2001 07:37 AM
Or, I suppose it may hit the rush build key.

But I doubt these options are a part of ordinary programming decision making.

The A1 assuredly changes its production to meet emergencies and changing circs. Post espionage I often send a spy round just to keep my scouting up to date and to peer into the A1's cities. It gives away shields prodigiously, being just a move or two away from completing a factory but deciding it really needs yet another useless cavalry unit.

I've seen that, I've also looked at the city the next turn.....the "wasted" shields "carry over". Yet another AI cheat.

Blaupanzer · February 2, 2001, 14:47

The lost WOW notification messages may have been overridden by other messages. On occasion when I acknowledge (click "OK") to a message, I notice the system seems to react as though I had acknowledged several. Thus, clicking on a build message may be taken by the programming as acknowledging a notification about a WOW that you, in fact, never saw. This is a guess, but the progression of message-handling would be consistent with this.

Seems we had a lot of message traffic a few years ago about the AI being able to do a "partial build" on certain improvements, including WOWs. That is, they could buy a part without buying it all, possibly in lieu of using caravans. Anyone remember this?

Bereta_Eder · February 2, 2001, 16:44

I should say that that particular game CRASHED my computer.

Yes, it happens sometimes (very rarely) when I have opened some other programs.

Now, I rebooted and loaded ONLY CIV 2 and nothing else afterwards.

The wonder messages were 100% consistent.

geofelt · February 3, 2001, 01:14

If you gat a notice about the imminent completion of a wonder, you must fill the production box to get it. Just because you have enough shields to complete it in one turn is not good enough. If you build a wonder the AI is building, it will shift to another. If the other costs fewer shields, it will build it without notification. I like to have two cities three squares apart, so I can store caravans in either, and build two wonders at once if necessary. On occasion, I get surprised, but I think I got distracted and missed the notice.

poppawoppa · February 3, 2001, 01:16

I "wonder"

if you get a message about the WOW being built if you have had no contact with that civ yet? I seem to remember if I have had contact, I DO get the info when they are building a WOW, but can't remember if that same message appears if I have no contact with them yet? It will bear watching during the next few games.

East Street Trader · February 5, 2001, 15:56

I have read a theory to the effect that the AI does not allocate shields as the human player does, but can allocate all the shields it is generating to wherever it likes each turn.

IIRC this is posited as an explanation for suspicious speed in building such things as wonders and spaceship parts (or even expensive units like armour in the same move as the tech advance is achieved).

Reports from Mata Hari would surely expose this clearly tho' so I don't go with it.

I would be willing to believe that there are plenty of programming shortcuts operating in relation to events taking place out of the human player's sight. IIRC - and this goes back a long time - when I played Civ1 and still reloaded outcomes, sometimes the AI had departed radically from its previous decisions and, for example, it would build an entirely different wonder or would produce an entirely different unit.

Doubt this is true for Civ2. The player is offered more information by one means or another which must remain firmly in place.

Anyway, Blaupanzer, your notion strikes me as interesting. I suppose that it might be supportable if anyone is aware of occasions when other bits of info might have apparently been withheld when it is normally provided. Trouble is the WoW case is particularly noteworthy. The non appearance of more humdrum messages might not impinge.

By the by, does anyone know what sparks an A1 civ off to summon the scribeless human to be informed of some advance or other. It's always nice to know and I think that whenever I go to speak to them they prove willing to trade. But I doubt that I get told every time. So why sometimes and not others?

La Fayette · February 6, 2001, 11:49

EST
I think that if you have been in contact with an AI civ but have not yet established an embassy, then you get information about any new tech discovered by that civ (this is what I think; I haven't tested it; has anyone?).

Edward · February 7, 2001, 01:59

quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-06-2001 10:49 AM
EST
I think that if you have been in contact with an AI civ but have not yet established an embassy, then you get information about any new tech discovered by that civ (this is what I think; I haven't tested it; has anyone?).

Yes, that sounds correct. Once I've had an embassy with a given AI, I don't think I've ever been asked to gaze in awe at it's new techs. And whenever I gaze in awe, its always a tech I don't yet know myself. Maybe you get these press releases when it's the first time any civ anywhere on the planet has discovered the tech.