!!!

[Dark Scorpion]

I don't understand why do you call the first space shuttle "The Apollo program"? The first one in space was Russia with "Vostok" program!!!

[Ralf]

Dont drill too far into real life details, or you might get stuck. Why not concentrate on gameplay-issues instead?

[Nikolai]

Actually, the Apollo program was USAs moon landing program. IMHO that was more important than just fly around the earth. But, Scorpion, you are maybe not agreeing? Well, speak out!

[red_jon]

But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by red_jon
But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game? The Apollo Program was by far the largest and most expensive space exploration program ever (perhaps the ISS will surpass it, though), and it did succeed in putting men on the moon... so it definitely should be included. I agree, though, that the important milestones of launching a first satellite (Sputnik) or sending a man into space (Yuri Gagarin in the Vostok Program) should be depicted in the game in some way as well.

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by Jarouik
And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game?

The MIR program was definetly no small wonder for me. The 5-year plan. Settlement of Siberia. Building small wonder - Red Square - increase happiness, neuter war effects. These from the top of my head. I'm sure my Russkies friends will have more.

[SK138]

This almost goes back to Uffty's post about Spain being in as a civ instead of the USA. Scorpion, I agree with you about Russia a great space program when they put sputnik in space and later, humans.

Originally posted by red_jon
But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

Red_jon, I agree with you about the Empire State Building, even though it was a great achievment because of its size, it shouldn't have been a wonder, but the reason there isn't a Russian space wonder is because Firaxis wanted the moon landing in instead of first men in space, that is how it was in Civ2 and that is how it is in Civ3. If Firaxis put in both, you may have the problem of having the Apollo Program completed (men on the moon) before a Russian wonder of having first men in space.

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

[DarkCloud]

Actually I think the reason the Apollo Program was chosen over the Russian Space Program is that the Apollo Program is a prequistice for sending a spacecraft to Alpha Centauri... correct?

And thus, the closest thing they thought to sending a manned spacecraft to another planet was to send one to the moon... thus... The Apollo Program wins out over the RSP.

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Actually, the Apollo program was USA moon landing program. IMHO that was more important than just fly around the earth. But, Scorpion, you are maybe not agreeing? Well, speak out!

Nikolai I agree that the flight no moon is important, but without the 40 min Gagarin was in space, there might of not being the moon mission.
Secondly I don't understand how flight to moon can affect the benefit from wonder in Civ 2 more than Vostok 2 shuttle? First astronauts that brought foto of Earth in space were Russian astronauts.


P.S. I am not against the Apolo program I just think that it does not fit in benefit given in Civ 2!

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by Ralf
Dont drill too far into real life details, or you might get stuck. Why not concentrate on gameplay-issues instead?

Ralf I agree that gameplay is more important than history, but if Civ wish to be game which include historical events, it should be TRUE history!

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by SK138
This almost goes back to Uffty's post about Spain being in as a civ instead of the USA. Scorpion, I agree with you about Russia a great space program when they put sputnik in space and later, humans.



Red_jon, I agree with you about the Empire State Building, even though it was a great achievment because of its size, it shouldn't have been a wonder, but the reason there isn't a Russian space wonder is because Firaxis wanted the moon landing in instead of first men in space, that is how it was in Civ2 and that is how it is in Civ3. If Firaxis put in both, you may have the problem of having the Apollo Program completed (men on the moon) before a Russian wonder of having first men in space.

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

Sk138 if Firaxis would wish to put in both he would of put them both. You just could not build Apolo before you have build Vostok. Like in Ctp2 The Gaia project.

[Saint Marcus]

And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game?

Sputnik, Gagarin, MIR, Kremlin, Red Square, Moscow Subway. And wasn't there a really amazing cathedral in St.Petersburg (or am I mistaken)?

[Saint Marcus]

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

I'm trying to resist answering that one

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Dark Scorpion
Ralf I agree that gameplay is more important than history, but if Civ wish to be game which include historical events, it should be TRUE history!

Dark Scorpion, et al.:

The Civilization series of games includes only certain aspects of history. These aspects mostly manifest themselves in the leaders of nations, how nations behave and in the Wonders.

If the Civilization series were to be true to history throughout, I would not buy the game. Why buy a historical simulator where the events are predetermined (ala scenarios, albeit this would be a "world history" scenario)? The game would be true to history, yes, but would be entirely predictable and boring as hell (mostly). Let scholastic companies deal with that kind of product.

The Wonders that Civ does include are true to history, as are leader/national characteristics (sans what the AI does with the parameters). What Wonders in Civ are not embedded in historical fact? Perhaps it would be interesting to have a Sputnik Wonder, though how this could benefit the player is a bit fuzzy (perhaps increase science by a one or two beakers per city, to reflect the leap in interest in science, math, physics, et al. following Sputnik). Then, of course, make it so Sputnik has to be built prior to the Apollo Program Wonder.

CYBERAmazon

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sputnik, Gagarin, MIR, Kremlin, Red Square, Moscow Subway. And wasn't there a really amazing cathedral in St.Petersburg (or am I mistaken)?

As wonders??! Only Sputnik is really deserving, and perhaps the Kremlin...

[Swissy]

Originally posted by SK138
Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

Let's see, a 225 year old country made up of the unwanted castoffs of civillizations many centuries older, who now the most powerful civillization on the planet. What's not to like

Also, going from stay at home isolationist to top of the heap in the world order in a mere 100 years. Last civillization to do that was the Mongols, I hear the europeans didn't like them either

[Nemo]

Originally posted by SK138
Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

Probably because the majority of us are an arrogant, hypocritical, egocentric, and uneducated group of people who push our idea of 'freedom' [ maybe I should say capitalistic society?] upon others.

- sorry, that's just the impression i gathered when i visited europe. i am not disagreeing or agreeing (well, if i had to choose, i would probably agree...have you looked at our school system recently? )

[korn469]

the US first announced that it was going to attempt to launch a satellite between Q2 1957 and Q2 1958 on 28/7/55

3/8/57 the soviets tested their first ICBM
4/10/57 soviets launched Sputnik which weighed 184lbs using the same rocket type
3/11/57 Soviets launched Sputnik 2 which weighed 1,200lbs and proves soviets can hit US cities with nuclear warheads

6/12/57 the US civilian satellite project Vanguard exploded on launch
31/1/58 US launched their first satellite
19/8/60 US launched discovery 14 the first operational spy satellite

the most significant effect of the sputnik program was to speed US ICBM and spy satellite development...

but like Ralf said

Why not concentrate on gameplay-issues instead?

[Falconius]

All right, you pinkos, we're not gonna have any commie wonders in my game if I have anything to say about it.

Whaddaya gonna have? The Murder of the Czar wonder? How about "collectivized farmlands" as a city inprovement? How about the Ukrainian Genocide wonder? Maybe the Nazi-Soviet Pact could be a wonder, too. How about the Berlin Wall replacing the Great Wall?

Any of you commie bastids think you're gonna slip some of that "creeping socialism" into this game, you got another thing coming! This is an American game, g--dammit!


PS I hope you all realize I'm kidding

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Falconius
PS I hope you all realize I'm kidding

You had me going for a while...

They never seem to include many modern non-US wonders. INCLUDE THE CHANNEL TUNNEL, FIRAXIS!!!

(BTW, does firaxis have anything to do with the axis powers in WW2? )

[korn469]

actually if they were going to put in any soviet wonders, i think the Berlin Wall would actually be a good one...it would make all of your cities immune to being taken over by culture

Originally posted by korn469
the US first announced that it was going to attempt to launch a satellite between Q2 1957 and Q2 1958 on 28/7/55

3/8/57 the soviets tested their first ICBM
4/10/57 soviets launched Sputnik which weighed 184lbs using the same rocket type
3/11/57 Soviets launched Sputnik 2 which weighed 1,200lbs and proves soviets can hit US cities with nuclear warheads

6/12/57 the US civilian satellite project Vanguard exploded on launch
31/1/58 US launched their first satellite
19/8/60 US launched discovery 14 the first operational spy satellite

the most significant effect of the sputnik program was to speed US ICBM and spy satellite development...

At least someone know a little about our Space Program. What we had in the fifties is Former Supreme Allied Commander, five stars General Dwight D. Eisenhower serving as President of the United State. He stopped the fighting in Korea, would not send troops to the Suez canal or send troops to help in the Hungary revolt against the Soviet Union. After seeing WWII, he really wanted peace in our time.
He also wanted the new Space Program to be Civilian or at lease non-military. So he asked the US Navy to develop a non-military rocket (Vanguard) to send up our satellite (Korn, it blew up more than once). Our General and NASA people wanted to use either the Jupiter/Redstone IRBM as a booster for the Satellite, Eisenhower said no, because it would then be the military doing it and not NASA. We could have sent up a satellite maybe in "56", but definitely in "57" before the Russian.
The Russian said to "Hell" with the politic and used their ICBM as a booster.
Redstone/Jupiter First launched, May 1953, Operational, May 1956.

Originally posted by Dark Scorpion


Nikolai I agree that the flight no moon is important, but without the 40 min Gagarin was in space, there might of not being the moon mission.

Excuse me, We were going to space with or without the Soviet Union.
I have been following the Space Program since it started. If we would have used military rockets from the start and took chances, we would have beaten the Soviet Union at ever turn except maybe for the Woman in space. It was the U.S. policy to test and retest before any man could/would fly into space.
Rumor has it that the Soviets lost two guys before Gagarin was successful.
Some guy who had a radio said at the time, he hear breathing in one flight, but the Soviet said it was only test of the Space Craft with nobody on board.

Originally posted by korn469

the most significant effect of the sputnik program was to speed US ICBM and spy satellite development...

We already had several Titans 1 and Atlas ICBM on launch pads in the mid to late 50s.

The Empire State Building is a fairly impressive example of art deco and modernist architecture (i.e. its not just height but also originality - BTW the ESB is a better example of modernism than the Crysler Building so there!), and so is quite defensible as a moden wonder of the world. Moreso than the Statue of Liberty (ooooh! Another f_cking Colossus. Greeks already did it!) The significance of the Apollo Program is that it went to the moon. Which is not to take a way from Soviet achievements, but there you go. Face it, the US has its share of cool stuff.

Someday, Civ 7 will come out and USers will be complaining that Sid only put in all that Mexican stuff in order to sell more copies in the most powerful country in the world.

[tniem]

Originally posted by joseph1944

Excuse me, We were going to space with or without the Soviet Union.

O.k. I am not disagreeing with you, but I just wanted to add another view point to this discussion.

I watched a program on I believe PBS a while back where JFK asked his science/NASA advisors where they thought was the first space milestone that they could beat the Russians. They took a look at the techniques each nation had and said the moon. So JFK announced we were going to go the moon.

A scientist explained that going to the moon was not a huge scientific feat. All the technology was basically already developed and sending a man there really did not help with research. Sure it was still a design mess to launch from the moon. But the biggest thing that the moon was, was that it was a symbol. A great symbol of what American might could do and that is why we went there. To beat the Russians.

[El hidalgo]

Originally posted by Scrooge


The MIR program was definetly no small wonder for me. The 5-year plan. Settlement of Siberia. Building small wonder - Red Square - increase happiness, neuter war effects. These from the top of my head. I'm sure my Russkies friends will have more.

Five Year plans? Those were failures, not wonders at all. Settlement of Siberia? That's what any civ does, settle new lands. And it's not like Siberia was uninhabited before the Russians came in. St. Basil's Cathedral -- now there's a wonder. Church of the Transfiguration? The Russian novel? Bolshoi Theater? The Hermitage Museum?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Mark L

quote:

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.


I'm trying to resist answering that one

LOL Mark

Let's put this in a peaceful point of view: any powerful nation have his part of haters, please ask about France, Great Britain etc. on former colonies.

Italy fighted against and with German during the two world war. Some of both people suffer a lot, so they hate each others. Some of us have no problem to consider that a crazy period of history, without a point to bring hate into the XXI century (if not during soccer matches, of course ).

I agree many (most) of Americans are very good people, but probably not the "only and best" of the world as someone seems to believe.
Sadly a black sheep make more damage to the reputation of the whole than a hundred of white sheep can do for raising it.
Now I hope this metaphor will sound right in english as it sounds in Italian... Oh, well...

[campmajor!]

I agree. Most Americans are nice people, but some of them are so proud of their country that they ignore and look down on the rest of the world....

On topic again:

The first man on the moon marked an impressive event. Even more so than the first man in space. I personally think it is more appealing.

[SK138]

Originally posted by korn469
actually if they were going to put in any soviet wonders, i think the Berlin Wall would actually be a good one...it would make all of your cities immune to being taken over by culture

Berlin Wall didn't really stop culture from coming in, I think something like the Forbidden City in China would maybe be a good wonder to keep culture out.

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
BTW the ESB is a better example of modernism than the Crysler Building so there!), and so is quite defensible as a moden wonder of the world. Moreso than the Statue of Liberty (ooooh! Another f_cking Colossus. Greeks already did it!)

The Empire State Building might be a better achievement then the Statue of Liberty, but the Statue of Liberty meant so much more. Think of all the thousands of immigrants coming to America for freedom, the first thing they would see would be the Statue of Liberty. The Statue of Liberty is a world famous symbol of freedom.