Scary CTP !! Boooh !

[M. le Comte]

Those who have played to CTP know that to much units and to much tech can kill the gameplay, making it unbalanced and a bit unrealistic.

But the fear to look like to CTP seems to have produced evil effects.

Frightened by the fact that CTP was "too much", Meier and his staff have brought nothing new to the tech tree (only printing machine, which we were waiting fo a long time, and two or three other tech I do not remember).
They haven't created brand new units, the specific units being just better versions of already existing units.
They haven't improved the number of civs, which was, with 21 in Civ 2, still ridiculous.
They have just added "Nationalism" or something like that to the list of the governments.

Yes, sure, they have improved the gameplay, they have added a cultural dimension, the borders, the GA, they have improved battlesystem.

But several gaps that had been noticed by the players through 10 years of not-sleeping nights haven't been filled yet.

What about the invention of Paper, of reinforced concrete, of television ????
What about Medieval feet-soldiers, combat plungers, difference between diesel submarines and nuclear ones, spy satellites and scoot planes (I don't know how you say that in English) ?
What about Hittites, Assyrians, Numids, Portugeses, Senegal empires, Hebrews, Arabs, Incas, Mayas, or Inuits ? Perhaps some of the civs I'm talking about are include, but the other ?
What about Parlementar Monarchies, conservative dictatures, half-direct-democraty, Totalitarian systems etc..

CTP is not fun because of too much tech, too much units, and too much govts, that are often totaly unrealistic. But putting about 90 techs to describe Humanity history, it's a bit weak, isn't it ?

I'm sure that civ 3 will be a fun game, according to what I've watched on tis site and on civ3.com. But why not filling the gaps of this wonderful entertainment at the occasion of release of the third sequel ????

[MarkG]

Originally posted by M. le Comte
Those who have played to CTP know that to much units and to much tech can kill the gameplay, making it unbalanced and a bit unrealistic.

the mods for ctp1/2 have ADDED units/techs/etc and ended up being more balanced...

[Urban Ranger]

You can't add to the tech tree without increasing the length of the game, unless each one is reduced in impact. A lot of civ advances need not be included unless it makes a material difference in the game, such as new units, new city improvements, or new wonders.

I don't see what's the point of adding more new units either. So you can produce nuclear subs, so? They aren't all that much more different than diesel boats, unless there is a new unit type the ballistic subs ("boomers"), which doesn't do anything other than cruising around with nuclear missiles.

[K.J.H.]

There are two things of CTP i shall miss in Civ 3

1. Off course they had too much governments, but I liked Theocracy. The 'Cleric'-guy is somebody I certainly miss. However, Theocracy was too powerfull in CTP. All of the great and invincible nations were theocracies in my games. Science should suck like a vacuum cleaner in theocracies.
2. The Corporate Branch (the man with the desk that moved) was also a cool CTP unit. The power of America and Europe nowadays are great, because of the multinationals like Ford, McDonalds, Philips, Mercedes etc.

By the way, I hope the patrizans of Civ II come back! I liked it when I had support from guerilla forces after losing a city. Maybe in Civ 3, they could use culture points and the city hapinness for this. Happy cities with high culture should unleash masses of patrizans, low-culture cities with too much unhappy citizens should unleash a few.

[Adagio]

It's not the many more techs/units that made the game less interesting (That is what I'll miss in Civ3), the things that made CTP1/2 more boring was: Bugs, things weren't balanced, the AI was DUMB, there's never people on the servers who wants to play a MP game for more than 5 minutes (then they quit ), etc, etc, etc...I could go on like this forever, but the tech tree did not make the game boring

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by ADG
but the tech tree did not make the game boring

You're right, it just made it painfully stupid. In my opinion anyways, I thought alot of the new units, techs and, concepts in CTP where incredibly stupid/cheesy, especially when you get into the 'futuristic' crap they had.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Osweld

You're right, it just made it painfully stupid. In my opinion anyways, I thought alot of the new units, techs and, concepts in CTP where incredibly stupid/cheesy, especially when you get into the 'futuristic' crap they had.

They didn't even have half "futuristic" crap as they had of "the rest of the history" crap. The slaver sucked big time (in SP anyway), the same did all the other "slaver alike" people, like the televangilist (sp?) or that boring prist. They took out great wonders (and threw it to the trashcan) and changed great wonders into bad wonders, while they also added bad wonders.

But the future part was great, nice cities and good units, there's only these things I don't want to see again: The Space cities, the underwater cities, the "walking city" unit or what was that and such things...But I really liked the War Walker

[Grumbold]

CtP was not a brilliant game but I have to side with those here who argue it was not the techs or units that harmed the game. Any unit that can be researched, built and put to practical use for 20 turns is a good unit. Any tech that is not superseded almost immediately is a good tech. What hurt the CtP games were their less intuitive interface, weak AI and some unbalanced material. Thankfully they also got rid of some horribly unbalancing Civ material like Leonardos. Much of their failings have been rectified by later modmakers but unfortunately the basic interface is the one thing almost impossible to change. Hence my worries about the 8 Civ limit on some of CivIII's current screens.

[K.J.H.]

Originally posted by ADG

They didn't even have half "futuristic" crap as they had of "the rest of the history" crap. The slaver sucked big time (in SP anyway), the same did all the other "slaver alike" people, like the televangilist (sp?) or that boring prist. They took out great wonders (and threw it to the trashcan) and changed great wonders into bad wonders, while they also added bad wonders.

The televangelist was certainly a moron with a tv on his head. But the cleric is a cool guy. I think these special or "slaver alike" people are one of the greatest advantages of CTP. The slaver is a good idea, but they could better work on that idea. I didn't like the aspect of 'when-you-capture-a-slave-he-goes-to-the-nearest-city'. That's just one disadvantages of the slaver.

Originally posted by ADG
But the future part was great, nice cities and good units, there's only these things I don't want to see again: The Space cities, the underwater cities, the "walking city" unit or what was that and such things...But I really liked the War Walker

iiiiiiiiiieeeeuwww!!!!
Civilization is not a sci-fi game!!!!
it's about history not about weird unusefull starwars-like pedosexual robots without a head!!!
buy mechwarriors

[Adagio]

Originally posted by K.J.H.

buy mechwarriors

NO WAY, that "game" sux bigtime

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by K.J.H.


The televangelist was certainly a moron with a tv on his head. But the cleric is a cool guy. I think these special or "slaver alike" people are one of the greatest advantages of CTP. The slaver is a good idea, but they could better work on that idea. I didn't like the aspect of 'when-you-capture-a-slave-he-goes-to-the-nearest-city'. That's just one disadvantages of the slaver.

At CTP2 they took that horrible television out of the Televangelists head.
Thank God .

But at all the televangelist is the same of a priest with better chances.
In CTP2 you can control the way of a slaver by taking the units out of the nearest city so that it goes to the second nearest city and so on.

iiiiiiiiiieeeeuwww!!!!
Civilization is not a sci-fi game!!!!
it's about history not about weird unusefull starwars-like pedosexual robots without a head!!!
buy mechwarriors

I like to see my civ evolving from the nomads to the stars and that is the beauty of CTP series.

The problem with CTP2 isnt too much units or too much techs. It is the bad balance. What is fixed with the mods.
MarkG aswered that afirmation greatly. Since with MedMod added almost 2 times mote units and 50% more techs and the game now is amazing.

Funny, I rather liked the futuristic stuff in CTP. First thing I added to Civ2 after I found out you could mod it (found out by sheer accident) were three futuristic units and three futuristic techs (which was the limit I believe) Besides, if you didn't like the future stuff - you could simply mod it out. Then again, KJH, civ is not sci-fi, but CTP is in part a game about sci fi. You would agree, I take it, that CTP and civ are different games (although CTP is heavily derivative). The historical scope is different, the interface is different, many of the concepts are different, and so on.

Oh yeah, like every Civ2 wonder was gold. Penicillan was a far better wonder than Bach's Cathedral (and what cathedral is that? Where is it located?). Penicillan ushered in a medical revolution - that's pretty wonderful. At least CTP always had wonders - i.e. marvels of human invention, architecture, and though - as opposed to famous individuals (Newton, Smith, Bach) as wonders. Newton never had his own college, Smith was an academic who never owned a trading company, and so on. Give me a break!

Its one thing to be hostile towards CTP series for its own shortcomings. Activision released what amounted to a buggy development platform - so much so that anyone who is not interested in modding or using the mods of others should not acquire the platform. Activision abandoned their so-called game shortly after release, and so on. Too many peopel, it seems to me are disparaging CTP because it diverged from Civ or did not have Sid's imprimatur on it. CTP is its own game The first reasons are good reasons to criticize CTP, the second reasons are not.

[dainbramaged13]

OH MY GOD! IVE NEVER SEEN SO MANY CTP supporters in ONE PLACE! AHHHH!!!!!!!!!
2 OF THEM!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

hehe
jk


no, i agree with you. the amount of units did not make ctp a bad game, the other sh!t did. I do think civ3 should have more units, and i really do hope that it is possible to add units/civs/techs/etc.. in mods/etc.. rather than just replacing them.
Thats the problem with good graphics tho, theyre hard for mod-makers to replicate (see: all billion of the forums complaingin about the number of civs supported, esp. that one fatal diplomacy screen)

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by dainbramaged13
no, i agree with you. the amount of units did not make ctp a bad game, the other sh!t did. I do think civ3 should have more units, and i really do hope that it is possible to add units/civs/techs/etc.. in mods/etc.. rather than just replacing them.
Thats the problem with good graphics tho, theyre hard for mod-makers to replicate (see: all billion of the forums complaingin about the number of civs supported, esp. that one fatal diplomacy screen)

If we cant add units and advances in civ3 i will really consider not buying it. I will still stay sticked with CTP2.
I really want future!!! Even if i have to add it myself.

The only reason there are actually two CTP2 players in this forum is because the other CTP2 players are playing a game that actually exists and is actually quite good with the mods.



Seriously though, WesW, Dale, Locutus, and the rest created one of the finest examples of game balance I've seen. Their names resonate with as much power as Sid's does! That's right WesW and Co. ARE the new Sid Meier.

I'm sure Civ3 will be good. I'll even buy it the day it comes out. But will it be as good as the MedMod2? Civ3 is working with some serious disadvantages:

- No sci-fi portion of the game
- Lack of diverse govenrment types
- No unconventional units
- Those same old crappy wonders!
- No public works system
- Wes, Dale, and Locutus regularly dispense advice on these forums as well as incorporating user suggetions

Now if you're alert, you'll notice I just cited as disadvantages things that makes Civ unique with respect to CTP. If you don't like those things, then they're not disadvantages they're advantages. My point is, the universe is a richer place for having both Sid Meier and WesW/Dale/Locutus games in it because I happen to like playing both varieties of turn-based history-type games. So all the haters hanging out in this forum need to show the same respect for the MedMod crew as they would for Sid.

[monkspider]

I am a CTP fiend as well Mr Pleasent, not to the degree that I am a Civ fiend, but I nonetheless agree with the majority of your points. One statement I would disagree with is the assertment that CTP has better Wonders than Civ 2. I have always found them to be interesting, and even artsy (Contraception, Ramayana, Egalitarian Act), some make interesting points about society (Zero Crime Bill, World Peace Center, Hollywood) and some are just frickin' cool (Dino Park! The coolest wonder EVER) but they rarely had the sense of "wonder" that I would get from building The Great Library, The Colossus, or SETI. Plus, some of the CTP wonders are simply lame concepts (The Agency?? Empire State Building?) and have gone from being too powerful in general in the first CTP to a little too weak for my liking in CTP 2.
I love CTP, but the wonders are one area in which it unquestionably comes up short.
If i could suggest but one thing to the makers of CTP 3, More Dino Park, less Empire State Building.

Monkeyspider:

I don't think the wonders of CTP were so much better than Civ, just that Civ had some clunkers in it too. Emancipation Act, Appian Way, and Field Dynamics all pretty much blew. But the Empire State Building really is a very cool building - the archetypal modernist building. An influence to all skyscrapers that came later but with more flair. I think we're on the same page except with respect to a certain building.

[monkspider]

Fair enough
I just hope they bring back Dino Park in a future CTP installment, or it is perhaps incorported into Civ 3 by means of an ambitious young mod maker
To be fair to CTP, I would love for Civ 3 to incorporate many of the more abstract, philosophical wonders that CTP is famous for. (Think Contraception, Zero Crime Bill, Egalitarian Act, etc)

[phoenixcager]

Originally posted by monkspider
a future CTP installment,

That's just not going to happen.....there won't be any more sequels to CtP.

I don't know pheonixcager, Bill Gates may be looking to monopolize the turn-based strategy market. And Microsoft might figure, "What the hell! We'll put out a flawed civ3 and let WesW/Dale/Locutus fix it for free!" CTP3 will come free on all new PCs, displacing Civ (or screwing it up if anyone tries to install it) but patches will cost $10 each and come out every month. Firaxis will sell out to AOL/Time Warner.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant

- Lack of diverse govenrment types

I think there were too many different goverments in ctp2

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant

- Those same old crappy wonders!

The wonders in CTP1/2 weren't any good, most of those wonders gave me the feeling of that not being a wonder...and the point of wonders where to make them feel like wonders

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant

- No public works system

That's the advantage of the Civ series, there's no PW system

[K.J.H.]

Originally posted by ADG


I think there were too many different goverments in ctp2

hmmm ... maybe ecotopia, technocracy and virtual democracy etc. were too many , but I liked theocracy. However the economy in theocracy was too good. The most powerful nations in CTP1 were theocracies.

Originally posted by ADG
The wonders in CTP1/2 weren't any good, most of those wonders gave me the feeling of that not being a wonder...and the point of wonders where to make them feel like wonders

Emancipation Act is like a real large Sim City 3000 ordinance. But I think 'Acts' and 'Laws' should be in the game.
I think Civ-games should be a little bit based on the Sim City ordinance system or the Tropico edict system. Like:
- Martial Law (requires Monarchy)
- Anticontraception Ban (requires Fundamentalism)
- Woman Emancipation (requires Democracy)
- Anti-Racism Campaign (requires Democracy)
- Propaganda Spreading(requires Nationalism)
- Capital Punishment (requires Code of Laws)
etc. etc.
Wonders must be BUILDINGS.
And REAL buildings.
Adam Smith's Trading Company is completely nonsense.

Originally posted by ADG
That's the advantage of the Civ series, there's no PW system

I agree!
However I think the fisheries of CTP are quite usefull.
And I haven't seen a swimming settler in Civ
maybe a fisher's boat as a settler-on-water-unit

[Adagio]

Originally posted by K.J.H.

Emancipation Act is like a real large Sim City 3000 ordinance. But I think 'Acts' and 'Laws' should be in the game.
I think Civ-games should be a little bit based on the Sim City ordinance system or the Tropico edict system. Like:
- Martial Law (requires Monarchy)
- Anticontraception Ban (requires Fundamentalism)
- Woman Emancipation (requires Democracy)
- Anti-Racism Campaign (requires Democracy)
- Propaganda Spreading(requires Nationalism)
- Capital Punishment (requires Code of Laws)
etc. etc.

That's the way it should be

Originally posted by K.J.H.
Wonders must be BUILDINGS.
And REAL buildings.
Adam Smith's Trading Company is completely nonsense.

Defently...Wonders is the same thing as buildings

Originally posted by K.J.H.
I agree!
However I think the fisheries of CTP are quite usefull.
And I haven't seen a swimming settler in Civ
maybe a fisher's boat as a settler-on-water-unit

You're right, a "settler" boat is what we need, otherwise I can live without the fisheries

That's the advantage of the Civ series, there's no PW system

.

Read the rest of that post - that's exactly the point I'm making. Civ and CTP should diverge a little bit. No point in having exactly the same game twice.

I don't know about making all of the wonders buildings though. Sure, the seven wonders of the ancient world were all buildings (and I would point out that neither civ1 nor civ2 used the actual list), but I take it the wonderousness of the Great Library was not the architecture, but rather the scholarship it facilitated. Besides I've often heard the internet called the 8th wonder of the world - but it isn't located in a building. Besides, other than the Empire State Building, maybe the VAB, and possibly that giant antenna in Toronto, what buildings would qualify as wonders today?

[Myrddin]

Civ III is going to be a very different game to CTP2+mod

Civ III will have few bugs, be well balanced, have good graphics and will be biased towards peaceful development and co-existence (if only because it is easier to develop a good AI for negotiating than for combat). However I am not sure that it will seem challenging enough for vetran civers with relatively small numbers of advances and units - much will depend on how easy it is to modify and add civilisations, units etc

CTP+mod will be much more interesting if you just want to conquer the world

CTP+mod will be much more interesting if you just want to conquer the world

I don't know about that. The logistics of securing resources and dealing with culture could make for an interesting conquest-type challenge.

[K.J.H.]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
I don't know about making all of the wonders buildings though. Sure, the seven wonders of the ancient world were all buildings (and I would point out that neither civ1 nor civ2 used the actual list), but I take it the wonderousness of the Great Library was not the architecture, but rather the scholarship it facilitated. Besides I've often heard the internet called the 8th wonder of the world - but it isn't located in a building. Besides, other than the Empire State Building, maybe the VAB, and possibly that giant antenna in Toronto, what buildings would qualify as wonders today?

Hmmm you are right. But like the Emancipation Act of CTP ... why do you need the shields for? For making a pen, a piece of paper and some ink? That's why I think the Emancipation Act should be some 'law' or 'ordinance' of SimCity 3000 or the 'edicts' of Tropico.

Hmmm you are right. But like the Emancipation Act of CTP ... why do you need the shields for?

I thought the exact same thing the first time I played CTP1!

Of course, now that I think about it, the VAB would make a pretty cool minor wonder each civ can build. Then again, that antenna in Toronto is much cooler than the Eiffel Tower . . . Hmmm, do I see an idea for a mod here . . .

[M. le Comte]

We are just getting very far away from the realistic Wonder concept, with the CTP's wonder. I know that civ needs more than the seven genuine ones, but however...

[XarXo]

When I played CTP2 I start at the middle level, I played the Incans at the World Map ??scenario??, well, I fund Qosqo (not "Cuzco" or "Cusco" as the game, the historical accurancy is IMPORTANT!!), and appeared an... Arabian city??? Well, I continued making cities... Etc... I win the game only making "End Turn", I don't know what I made... I Played? CTP was an horrible game, I don't feel any kind of relationship with it... Is too confusing... That strange units, that strange sounds... AGH. I HATE it!

Sincerely, I believe that the CTP creators never played its own game.