ASK The CIV TEAM 8/22/01!

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Grumbold
I can see barbarian villages surrounded by a single Civ left alive to provide combat training for their new regiments.

A.N.:
Somenone (Dan Mahaga?) already mentioned that fight with barbarians doesn't count for elite status > leader conversion. No cheat available here

Grumbold:
If an elite unit spawns a leader and does not disappear in the process, then can one elite unit be used to repeatedly spawn new leaders?

A.N.:
Watching E3 movie (the first, amatorial take, IIRC) I'm almost sure to have got a glance of an (elite) unit winning and trasforming itself into a Leader/General.

If that's true, surely it seems a bit silly from a realistic Point of view, but probably is needed to balance things: if you rush for many leaders, you end without valuable, strong troops to command!

If you can't "farm" leaders fighting barbarians then you have to fight a war every time you found another 4 cities just to optimise your leader pool? that is going to be "interesting" to play around with. Barbarians are probably still going to be good troop trainers though to get to elite when you're not wanting to fight wars with your neighbours.

I think I'd be a tad upset if my elite legion transformed into a 0/0 army leader and got slaughtered before I could use him Luckily Dan seems to have scotched that concept. I expect human players will still hit a single unit that just spawned a leader hard to try and kill it before it can regroup into a 3 stack.

KH you may be right about the army stacks. I thought you could have max cities/4 but had to wait for leaders to form them. Every army ought to have someone leading it...

[KrazyHorse]

Grumbold, don't worry about losing units:

Dan stated that the unit doesn't transform; it spawns off an additional GL unit.

If you can't "farm" leaders fighting barbarians then you have to fight a war every time you found another 4 cities just to optimise your leader pool? that is going to be "interesting" to play around with

Why would you have to do this? You don't need a great leader to make a stack; just the cities.

[Guildenstern]

About the number of armies availible...
Does the effect of one of the small wonders go away after time, or can you have like 3 more armies than your competition? Also, about small wonders, can only one built? The army system would seem to favor the more populous civs to keep getting fatter and more powerful, kind of like in real life...

[CapTVK]

Colonies allow you to harvest a resource that you need, but that isn't within your borders. As long as your colony is connected to your trade network by road or railroad, you gain the benefit of that resource.

Spot on, I was right all along!

Colonies are the equivalent of a depot in the classic Railroad Tycoon. Could prove interesting during war (cutting routes)...

[Rommel393]

Ok, there is one thing i dont understand about armies. How would their movement be handled? If u had lets say, a rifleman and 2 tanks in an army, would it move the rifleman's speed of 1 or the tanks speed of 3? Or would there be some sort of compromise?

Actually, there is more than 1 thing i dont understand... how would attack and defense be handled? If their hitpoints are pooled than would they attack seperately and switch from strongest to weakest unit as the first ones to fight get damaged? Or would they have some sort of attack/defenses bonus to their ADM?

And something that bothers me.... will armies upset the balance of offense versus defense? It seems like it would to me. You couldn't defend all your cities with armies because you can only have 1 army to every 4 cities. Plus that would be just plain expensive.

I like some ideas about armies but other ones bother. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out in the game. There will probably be an option to turn them off anyway incase you don't like them. But that would probably mess with the AI.....

[Steve Clark]

Good analogy, Cap. But it would also prove interesting during times of diplomacy and culture! If a neighboring civ do not like me mining gold from 'their' mountains, I'll say fine, I'll give that colony but I want 50% of the gold each turn (or something else).

[The Mad Viking]

Grumbold, (& KH) - you need a great leader to make an army, as I understand it. I expect the number of leaders you can "farm" will be limited by your # of cities. As such, you will want to have 8 cities if at all possible by your Golden Age, or you will be limited to one great leader. Civs with late Golden Ages will have a great advantage in spawning more leaders- but will not be able to have any leaders until they have their Golden Age! (This will not discourage ICS, although other things will...)

I like the sounds of the new stacked combat.

I don't think ranged combat and flanking have any place in CIV3. This is a strategic game, and those are operational / tactical level strategies. The ranged combat and mobility of the units are taken into account when the attack, defense and hitpoint totals are generated. Battlescreens would make the game take longer, and it already takes long enough, IMO.

[Stefu]

Question. Just having the units in an army pool their hitpoints sounds a bit... boring. How 'bout rewarding creating a good stack with combined arms with a little bonus? For instance, let's say that I group one Legionnaire, one Archer and one Horsemen into one stack. Presumably, Legionnaire will be the one doing the attack, but how about game recognizing that stack also has Archers to weaken up the enemy and Horsemen to bother them, and giving an according (small) bonus to Legionnaire? This'l encourage people to build more than one unit type (which, with me, usually was "two-MP unit with highest attack.)

[ChrisShaffer]

As such, you will want to have 8 cities if at all possible by your Golden Age, or you will be limited to one great leader. Civs with late Golden Ages will have a great advantage in spawning more leaders- but will not be able to have any leaders until they have their Golden Age!

Mad Viking, I haven't seen anything linking Golden Ages to Great Leaders. From what I read, the Americans can't have a Golden Age until late in the game, but that doesn't stop them from getting a Great Leader early in the game.

[barefootbadass]

hello, folks, I haven't played civ2 in ages cause I lost my MG cd but now I'm getting really excited about civ3. After reading what the site said about making armies and combat, it seems to me that the units per army idea makes a lot of sense given the attributes that units use in fighting.

my understanding of what firaxis means by stating that the hit points in an army are pooled is that the total hit points are apply to the army as if it were a single unit. the attack value of the army would be that of the unit with the greatest attack value and likewise for defense. basically 3 unit armies allow you to have high attack, high defense, and high hp units that can work together to make one army unit. There was the factor of firepower of units that was present in civ2 and I don't know if that will also be present in civ3 or if it is how it will be implemented. Anyway, this system doesn't seem to be as realistic as a combined arms situation where having ranged units such as archers can really help infantry types, but the units will work better as part of an army and having a 3 unit army would allow basically all the types of specialization one would expect from a system with combat being governed basically by 3 attributes. As for fears that warmongering civs will have a ridiculous advantage with 4 unit armies, I would think peaceful types could counter this by making denfensive armies(1 high defense unit and 2 high hp units) and putting them strategically in fortresses or cities with city walls or defensive bonus terrain. It seems to me that, although not entirely realistic, this system is simple and elegant, and will have the strengths that made civ2 such a wonderful game.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Wittlich
So to answer your question Fiera - IMO, No, you can get an elite unit when ever a veteran unit wins a certain combat(s). This has no tie to your Golden Age.

Yes, you are right. Some of us were confusing the elite unit with the civ-spicfic unit, which is tied to Golden Ages. So then, Great Leaders can also appear at any moment on the game, whenever an elite unit wins a battle.

Do we know which knowledge is required to build the Military Academy?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Grumbold, (& KH) - you need a great leader to make an army, as I understand it. I expect the number of leaders you can "farm" will be limited by your # of cities

This belies your claim:

"To answer your first question, in Civ III we introduced the concept of an army. To build an army, you need either a great leader or the Military Academy (Small Wonder)"

See the "either/or"?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Fiera
Yes, you are right. Some of us were confusing the elite unit with the civ-spicfic unit, which is tied to Golden Ages. So then, Great Leaders can also appear at any moment on the game, whenever an elite unit wins a battle.

Which means, who ever gets a great leader in ancient times can be really really strong. I just hope it's ballanced well, so that it won't give one too much power, to run amoc, but still give enough punch to make elite units worth keeping alive.

Do we know which knowledge is required to build the Military Academy?

I assume - Nationalism. Sinec that's the known pre-requisite for armies

[Grumbold]

Has anyone trawled the techs and spotted when the academy comes in? Without evidence I would guess during Nationalism, which means there will be a whole lot of game where farming leaders is a key strategy.

[KrazyHorse]

With evidence, Feudalism.

http://www.gamespydaily.com/screensh...ex.asp?id=3190

[Harlan]

Boy, what a Pandora's box of questions. Dan, as Desi Arnaz Jr. might have said to you, "you've got a lotta 'splainin' to do!"

One question I have concerns Leaders. Can they live forever - could I have Hannibal still leading troops 2000 years later? If so, very strange.

Also, I remember some Firaxis speculation that leaders could have peacetime functions, like boosting a city's production. Is that still gonna happen?

A comment. I remember reading somewhere that Catapults have a special role now (and doesn't operate like other units - does anyone remember the details). Perhaps Catapult rules hold for other artillery types, and other types of units have their own special features (like the Pikeman extra defense against horse units in Civ2). The end result being, that a properly balanced force is the smart way to go in Civ3.

[down th' pub]

Harlan, you just reminded me, I've been wondering if the "Artillery" family (catapult->howitzer) are bombardment only units, with the catapult's attack figures in (brackets) it would be the same concept and format as SMAC.

Does anone else violently (dis)agree?

[Grumbold]

That certainly looks more likely than any of the icons under Nationalism, but I won't take it as absolute proof yet

That still means a lucky early leader could make a big difference to gameplay considering the weaker strength of these ancient unit. I can't wait for the next glimmer of information to arrive on the subject.

[Fiera]

Another thing: you will be REALLY powerful if you manage to make elite units of your civ specific units, having in mind that this may very well coincide with your Golden Age.

Can you imagine the boost Germans will have when they gather five or four Elite Panzers (and they have them lead by some Rommel)?

[Grumbold]

It could be hard to get many of your unique units to elite considering the "golden age" is currently primed to start as soon as your first one wins a combat. Still, they may reconsider that. The golden age bonuses are more to do with peace than war (increased trade and industry) although I suppose it will help you build units faster too.

[KrazyHorse]

Grumbold, go to tniem's City Improvements thread. On his list, you'll see what the improvement looks like in City View.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...5&pagenumber=1

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Grumbold
The golden age bonuses are more to do with peace than war (increased trade and industry) although I suppose it will help you build units faster too.

That's what I was referring to. Your chance to get elite units will be the same, but you will probably have more units available to send to the battlefield.

[Edward]

I'm having problems similar to Echinda and Adm.Naismith. When I visit civ3.com, the main page has a link (under "What's New" in the center section) to the 8/22 Ask the Civ Team item. Curiously, the "Ask the Civ Team" link only offers the same old 5 items (1/19/2001 thru 8/08/2001).

---

Can someone confirm that army combat works as korn469 describes

* units attack in the army one at a time ('though not necessarily to the death)
* each unit attacks as it would normally (no changing of attack or defense or hitpoints)
* each unit retains its own hitpoints. Whenever it's hit, it loses hitpoints.
* armies are different than a bunch of individual units because the units in the army can be wounded, then temporarily stop attacking and allow another army unit in better shape attack next. Much like tag team wrestling, the army units take turns attacking.

and NOT how introvert, Rommel393, barefootbadass, et al describe
(where units share hitpoints or confer attack or defense values to one another).

korn469's description is how I had interpreted the armies to work up until now. While sensible, it would mean the 8/22 Ask the Civ team update:

Once an army is built, you can load three units onto the army, and those units will pool their hit points during an attack.

is EXTREMELY misleading (or at the least, poorly phrased). Units in armies would "in effect" somewhat pool their hitpoints only in that no unit dies until everyone in the army has only one hitpoint left.

---

SonofDogbreath notes that sometimes losing a city will mean that one of your armies vanishes. Even more devastating is the loss of your Military Academy small wonder. If you don't protect its city well, you'll lose all your armies (except those lead by great leaders). Does the Military Academy ever expire?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
I'm not sure whether defeating barbarians can spawn great leaders, but you can attain elite status if a veteran unit defeats barbarians (I've seen this happen when a horde of barbarians attack a single unit and the unit defeats them all)

I don't *think* leaders replace any of your units, I believe they appear as a completely seperate unit...

Dan

Thanks Dan, I had written a pile of ... wrong info to be polite. I'm putting ash on my head right now :banned:

[Colwyn]

I've noticed some comments in the forum re the number of army's available ie 1 per 4 cities and the gasp that this would leave cities undefended. I think there is some confussion re the word Army's

It must be made clear that you can have as many single units as you want and that you can fortify heaps in the city and fortresses if you build them.

The "Army's" we are referring to in this forum is the stacked feature of Civ3 not the single units we have been used too and often called armies in the past.

Ie put basically civ 3 will be like civ2 with units but with a bonus of a few grouped units now called armys able to be assembled also.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

My big problem with the 1 army/4 cities rule is, what if you want to defend a city from a rampaging army, but all your armies are out in the field, and all you have left are stacks of single units! The way I see it, an army will be able to overcome each individual defender one at a time because the defenders aren't an army.
Instead I feel that, once you have a great leader or military academy, then units defending cities should act as "de-facto" armies. This means that, if you take the units outside the city, they will revert to individual unit status, but inside the city, any attacker will be facing an army!

As I've pointed out before, I'd also be interested to know if each unit in an army uses its own attack/defense in combat, or if its like the fortress in CivII. I'd also be interested to know if ranged units give you any benefits over melee units.
Lastly, I'd be interested to know if all combats are resolved simultaneously!
eg. if I've surrounded a city with 2 armies, when I attack the city I don't want to have to use one army at a a time, I want to use both armies simultaneously to reduce potential casualties in both stacks!
Anyway, as someone else suggested, it would be nice to see a "Combat Tutorial" a-la Resources and Colonies to put all lingering doubts to rest!

The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS

I don't *think* leaders replace any of your units, I believe they appear as a completely seperate unit...

Dan

Oh, now i get it! Instead of an elite unit becoming a great leader after heroics on the battlefield like a Julius Caesar; he shags another soldier, and....hey, presto! Out pops a great leader!

I'm glad you cleared that up for us, Dan

Originally posted by Rommel393
Ok, there is one thing I don't understand about armies. How would their movement be handled? If u had lets say, a rifleman and 2 tanks in an army, would it move the rifleman's speed of 1 or the tanks speed of 3? Or would there be some sort of compromise?

I don't think anyone answer you. In CTP 1 & 2 the rifleman would determine the movement. One tile w/O a road, 3 tile w/a road, etc. This game should be the same, the slowest unit determine the movement rate.

Originally posted by Harlan

One question I have concerns Leaders. Can they live forever - could I have Hannibal still leading troops 2000 years later? If so, very strange.

A long time ago, Firaxis said for a while. Question how long is a while?

Also, I remember some Firaxis speculation that leaders could have peacetime functions, like boosting a city's production. Is that still gonna happen?

That also has been said a while back. Another good question.

[introvert]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
My big problem with the 1 army/4 cities rule is, what if you want to defend a city from a rampaging army, but all your armies are out in the field, and all you have left are stacks of single units! The way I see it, an army will be able to overcome each individual defender one at a time because the defenders aren't an army.

If you've been foolish enough to let an enemy army come against your cities while all your own armies are off in some distant field, then you deserve to lose cities.

If you put all your armies in the field you are obviously going to be taking a risk that you won't need one to defend your cities. You'll just have to keep all your armies home, and never attack anyone.