Thoughts on the replacement of Fundamentalism with Nationalism

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Ribannah
There are plenty more examples, the oppression of homosexuality being one of the major issues. While I wouldn't call the USA a Theocracy, certain fundamentalist tendencies are obvious.

I wouldn't call them tendencies, but I see what you mean. This is true of most nations though. The oppression of homosexuality is another strange example. This is primarily caused by old-fashioned and religious people who simply don't believe in it. The general public does not have a problem with it. The only thing I find strange about it is the limitations on gay marriages and such.

This is a very weird statement IMHO.

I apologize. I wasn't totally clear here. I'll explain below.

First, because there is no conflict between the evolution theory and the main religions in the USA.

Yes there is, actually. The main religions of the U.S. believe in the creation of man (and woman), not evolution. There have been conflicts and even court cases because of this issue.

Second, children should be taught about all kinds of religion as well as science, so that they can make their own educated choice of what they want to believe.

Yes they should, but this is kept out of schools to allow parents to teach it their own way. Children are taught the basics of all major religions and are introduced to all the major theories, ie evolution. The rest is up to the parents.

I don't see how this could offend anyone but a fundamentalist (religeous, scientific or otherwise) - which should be ignored by a democratic government!

A religious person isn't necessarily a Fundamentalist. Same with science or otherwise. Democracy is the main reason why public schools don't teach in depth about religion. There is complete separation of church and state.

After reading your posts again, it occurs to me that you may be confusing public/private schools in the U.S. Public schools are limited in what they can teach: Children are taught the basics, but schools cannot have prayer sessions (children and teachers can still follow their beliefs, but they are not supported by the school)

Private schools can teach whatever they want. There are no limitations.

[Ribannah]

Thanks for the explanation, Sabre2th.

The educational system as you describe it, seems to put a lot of trust in the educational wisdom (& abilities) of the parents. Also, I don't think that private schools should be allowed to "teach what they want", there should be at least SOME guidelines.

About the theory of evolution: surely the almighty had plenty of time to put all the fossiles in before she put mankind on the surface of the planet

[Sabre2th]

Private schools can't exactly teach what they want. That was worded very badly. They still have to follow guidelines for classes and material, but they are allowed to teach religion, which is not allowed in public schools.

The bad part about putting so much trust in parents is that some parents aren't very parent-like.

[TechWins]

People making these statements about the US being a Fundamentalist reminds me of a similar situation. It's just like a fan who says "that ref is an idiot, there is no way that was a foul". The fan is outside of the game and doesn't have much valuable info and resources (sight, knowledge of the game, etc...) to make a statement like that. While the ref might be wrong, the fan is not inclined to make a statement about something they are in ignorant (lacking knowledge in something) in. My point is some non-Americans are making judgements on the US when they are very ignorant on the subject. It's ok to be ignorant but feeling free to state some outlandish comments on a subject you are ignorant is very inappropiate. So please, now this to everybody, keep your bold comments to yourself on a subject that you are ignorant in.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by TechWins
People making these statements about the US being a Fundamentalist reminds me of a similar situation. It's just like a fan who says "that ref is an idiot, there is no way that was a foul". The fan is outside of the game and doesn't have much valuable info and resources (sight, knowledge of the game, etc...) to make a statement like that. While the ref might be wrong, the fan is not inclined to make a statement about something they are in ignorant (lacking knowledge in something) in. My point is some non-Americans are making judgements on the US when they are very ignorant on the subject. It's ok to be ignorant but feeling free to state some outlandish comments on a subject you are ignorant is very inappropiate. So please, now this to everybody, keep your bold comments to yourself on a subject that you are ignorant in.

Although I don't really want to be a part of this argument, I just wanted to point out the the US is exporting cultures to pretty much everywhere in the world. The 'Coca-Cola / Big-Mac' culture, along with those painfully stupid sit-coms and talkshows are what most people make their judgments on. They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

[Sabre2th]

The United States is not pushing the culture thing, it's just happening.

I think it's funny that many people say the U.S. doesn't have any culture, then we have you saying that we're taking over with our culture.

[General Ludd]

Yes it is, Coca-Cola and similiar corporations are competing on the global market, and they do so by exporting their culture. The reason it becomes so popular is because many of these countries have a long history of wars and/or some sort of repression, and these corporations advertise the american ideals. Not to mention the marketing campaigns that cover the entire world. (the Atlantic Olympics is a good example)

Unfortunetly though, the 'Coca-Cola culture' consists solely of consuming brand names and nothing else, it results in conformity.

[Chronus]

They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

Hmmm . . . I have trouble with the words "resent" and "assimilate" in the context above. Perhaps I'm misreading the tone.

The bottom line is this: the U.S. is not FORCING its culture on the rest of the world. If our culture spreads to a particular region, its because the people find parts or most of it appealing and gladly accept it (i.e. they don't find it dull). I'm not saying our culture is the best or anything like that. What I am saying is that if "alot" (as you quote) of people embrace it (you use the word "assimilate" as if they're forced to embrace it) then why are you resentful? No one is forcing you to accept it.

[ChrisShaffer]

This is all *way* off topic for Civ3 now. However:

1) I'm from the United States of America. Many other people in the US have the same beliefs I do.
2) I believe the US is very much a fundamentalist country. It wraps itself in other garments, and it's melded with a corporate oligopoly, but it's very much a religious country.
3) The multinational corporations are taking over the world. Control of the media reduces choice. In many ways, the US *is* forcing culture on other peoples.
4) If you really want to know more about this, try searching for some progressive publications and reading a bit.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer
This is all *way* off topic for Civ3 now.

I was about to suggest that we get back on topic, but then i realised that the topic is dead... "Thoughts on the replacement of Fundamentalism with Nationalism" is rather irrelevant now that Nationalism has been revealed to not be a government...

Yes it is, Coca-Cola and similiar corporations are competing on the global market, and they do so by exporting their culture. The reason it becomes so popular is because many of these countries have a long history of wars and/or some sort of repression, and these corporations advertise the american ideals. Not to mention the marketing campaigns that cover the entire world. (the Atlantic Olympics is a good example)

Unfortunetly though, the 'Coca-Cola culture' consists solely of consuming brand names and nothing else, it results in conformity.

Osweld, repeat after me

"Coca-cola is nothing but a goddamned drink"

It is not a culture, not a political statement, its a lame ass soft drink. In New Orleans, we drink a lot of beer. Do we complain that the Germans are trying to shove their culture down our throat? No. Its as bad as the trailer trash over here saying the rising popularity of telenovellas J.Lo and Mexican Food means "those hispanic people" are taking over. Samuel Hunington may be a complete jackass but he was right about one thing. Spreading coca cola and MickyDee's around the world will not topple dictatorships, improve the rights of women in Afgahnistan, or convince the Chinese government that free speech isn't so bad after all.

On behalf of the US, I will apologize for Boy Bands, talk shows, and idiotic action movies, however. Still if people just refused to listen/buy/and watch . . .

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
"On behalf of the US, I will apologize for Boy Bands...

And so you should.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Osweld
Although I don't really want to be a part of this argument, I just wanted to point out the the US is exporting cultures to pretty much everywhere in the world. The 'Coca-Cola / Big-Mac' culture, along with those painfully stupid sit-coms and talkshows are what most people make their judgments on. They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

It is rather a two-way street. Asian and European culture enter USA society just as fast. But noting fundamentalist elements in the USA is not the same as resenting the country, it is merely a point of interest with regard to the game.
Sabre2th: I think public schools should teach religion, too. Mine did. Teach ABOUT religion, that is, not drilling children into following one specific religion.

[Arent]

Although this discussion *is* offtopic I think it's quite interresting - after all civilisation
is to a certain extent political and if it encourages such discussions... hey civ is not
just a game!

...

Actually there is a *lot* antiamericanism (judging from people I know, magazines...)
The point is: While the USA is not pushing the culture thing and not encouraging
people to be dull (mmhh this proven? Dubya...) this antiamericanism serves as a
wonderfull way to get rid of all those talkshows, boygroups etc.
Furthermore free trade (there are a lot of people who want to regulate stock exchange
(ATTAC)), globalisation, kyoto protocoll, echelon etc. doesn't help.
There was a similar discussion a while ago. Hope I could help.

Arent

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Sabre2th: I think public schools should teach religion, too. Mine did. Teach ABOUT religion, that is, not drilling children into following one specific religion.

They do. They teach the basics of all the major religions of the world. Whether or not people actually pay attention is another thing...

[Chronus]

The multinational corporations are taking over the world. Control of the media reduces choice. In many ways, the US *is* forcing culture on other peoples.

I can't believe what I just read above. Do you really have to give in to the media's hype and beliefs about products, issues, etc? The key word here is "you". Why blame someone or something else? Take some responsibility and start with yourself.

Still if people just refused to listen/buy/and watch . . .

Exactly. Buy the product because you think it's good . . . not simply because everyone else says it's good.

It is rather a two-way street. Asian and European culture enter USA society just as fast.

Agreed. The forums have been filled with people elevating their own cultures (or themselves?) while bashing others. Why feel threatened? Just embrace and enjoy them . . . or simply leave them alone. Mister Pleasant, enjoy your German beer. Me? I'll continue to drive my Honda.

[General Ludd]

You can't chose not to buy it when it is the only choice. As an example, here in Canada, there is only 1 all Canadian TV station, the rest are from the US or show mostly US shows. Canada isn't near as wartorn or underdeveloped as most of the countries being affected.

When foreign corporations control a country's media and economy, they don't have a choice.

[Ribannah]

Wow, that is poor.
As the Dutch we have no less than 9 nation-wide tv channels!
We own a good part of the USA economy, too

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Osweld
You can't chose not to buy it when it is the only choice. As an example, here in Canada, there is only 1 all Canadian TV station, the rest are from the US or show mostly US shows. Canada isn't near as wartorn or underdeveloped as most of the countries being affected.

When foreign corporations control a country's media and economy, they don't have a choice.

Let's see, CanWest (Global, CTV, CBC, and CityTV for those in Toronto. Most people can get a variety of all-Canadian cable channels. Canadians have lots of options, certainly more than one station.

[General Ludd]

CBC is the only channel that has all Canadian content, there are a handfull of other Canadian stations, but they only have some Canadian content, not much at all. The little they have is only because the goverment forces them, there used to be even less Canadian content.

Global, Channel 11 and CTV are basically just the different american networks(FOX, NBC, and ABC) with Canadian news, and 1 or 2 Canadian shows thrown in to meet the requirements. CityTV is pretty unqiue, and has alot of it's own stuff, but it still has a lot of american content.

And to be fair, the Specialty channels on cable (Comedy, History, Discovery ect..) have alot of Canadian content aswell. Not that it really matters in the case of history and discovery, though.

[Sabre2th]

It's not all of America's fault that there are American channels in Canada. This is getting ridiculous. If there aren't a lot of Canadian channels, you can't blame anyone but Canadian companies. Besides, if the people like American shows, then it makes sense to have American shows. If people don't like them, yell at the Canadian companies to do something. Don't just blame the U.S.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Chronus
The bottom line is this: the U.S. is not FORCING its culture on the rest of the world.

Oh, yes, it is. Aggressive marketing/propaganda with enormous amounts of money behind it differs from brute force only in that it is more insidious and underhanded. Do Americans really not understand that, or are they just hypocritical?

[Sabre2th]

This is really getting stupid. The U.S. is not forcing anything. Companies are pushing their products in order to make a profit. It's the same with most companies in the world. They are looking to expand. There is no connection between the U.S. government and the corporations you're talking about. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything. The choice is yours. Don't blame anyone but yourself.

[Edward]

posted by Osweld
Although I don't really want to be a part of this argument, I just wanted to point out the the US is exporting cultures to pretty much everywhere in the world. The 'Coca-Cola / Big-Mac' culture, along with those painfully stupid sit-coms and talkshows are what most people make their judgments on. They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

"At 10,000 culture points, the Americans begin their Golden Age of Coca-Cola! Cities have a radius of 4 and you can now build the Insipid Pop Star unit."

"Spies report that with our expanding borders, Vancouver and Montreal have succumbed to our mighty culture!"

"Most blessed leader, let us build McDonalds, for all will benefit when the fastest burgers are served in our cities."

"No! The exportation of pop culture is our foremost concern!"

Looks like the US has given up on diplomatic UN leadership and is going for a cultural victory instead.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Oh, yes, it is. Aggressive marketing/propaganda with enormous amounts of money behind it differs from brute force only in that it is more insidious and underhanded. Do Americans really not understand that, or are they just hypocritical?

Don't worry, not all Americans are so blind to the facts.
I am an American and I realize what we are doing.

[TechWins]

Damn what the hell are the American companies doing? Us Americans should know that only non-American companies can try to sell their product in a foreign country. It is absolutely unacceptable that Coca-Cola tries to spread it's product around the world by trying to entice billions of people in the world to buy the product. It's ok, though, that Nintendo and Sony can rule the gaming business in America. Yeah, we could play crappy Sega games instead but again they are crappy. So we choose the better product of Nintendo or Sony. Most likely where that Coke is being sold their is a soda pop product from that country there as well. At least in a developed country. It's not ok that Coke is trying to rule the buying of soda pop products over there. People in the foreign countries should not be given the option of buying Coke regardless of whether or not there is a national soda pop product being sold there. Coke should not try to sell it's product
in a foreign country while indirectly giving people a choice or more choices for a soda pop product. While it is ok for Sony or Nintendo to try to sell it's product in a foreign country while indirectly giving people a choice or more choices for a gaming product. I don't understand the logic behind this. Could somebody explain this to me?

America isn't forcing anybody to buy there product but by fierce competition in might by forcing out other companies. In doing this it might be leaving you with only option to choose from. But again the only reason why this occured is because you thought that Coke product was better so you didn't buy that other soda pop product that is only sold in you nation. If you would have bought the national product instead Coke might have taken it's business elsewhere or maybe not. Who knows, who cares? As long as you're receiving the better product it's all irrelevant on what the other products were/could have been. Sega sucks so I buy Nintendo and Sony games, you buy Coke because your national soda pop product that you may have available for your purchase sucks. You could say it's people sharing their ideas. Since some people are so self-conscious with them having American product being sold in their nation, even though that product might be the best, they post here saying how America forces culture on to people. Please don't be so foolish.

About the Canadian who mentioned the American culture is dull. Why do you have to make comments like this? I could lash back saying that Canadians suck, your culture is lame, etc.. but I'm not. It's simply unacceptable to make a comment on something when you have no experience with. While I might think some other culture appears to be dull from my point of view it might be very interesting to the nationals. Therefore, all cultures are interesting to at least one person. Your view on American culture is a poor because of your lack of experience with the culture, your biased view, and your ignorance. Please refer back to this comment I made, "keep your bold comments to yourself on a subject that you are ignorant in.".

[Transcend]

We can overrun Canada in 2 weeks. I heard their military has more officers than soldiers.

[Chronus]

You can't chose not to buy it when it is the only choice. As an example, here in Canada, there is only 1 all Canadian TV station, the rest are from the US or show mostly US shows.

WRONG! You can choose NOT TO BUY (or in your case ... watch)! I don't pay one penny for cable. I CHOOSE not to watch TV whatsoever because I don't care for most of the shows and it's not worth buying an antenna to watch the few I do like.

Oh, yes, it is. Aggressive marketing/propaganda with enormous amounts of money behind it differs from brute force only in that it is more insidious and underhanded. Do Americans really not understand that, or are they just hypocritical?

As I similarily asked before, do you really have to believe everything marketing/propaganda and money tell you??? If you are suckered a couple of times ... you have my sympathy. If you are constantly being suckered ... then that's YOUR fault. Take some responsibility for yourself! Speaking of hypocritical . . . see the next quote.

Us Americans should know that only non-American companies can try to sell their product in a foreign country. It is absolutely unacceptable that Coca-Cola tries to spread it's product around the world by trying to entice billions of people in the world to buy the product. It's ok, though, that Nintendo and Sony can rule the gaming business in America.

I've got a funny feeling that Comrade Tribune wouldn't be singing his song if it were Austrian products that were spreading into U.S. culture.

The Japanese did beat us Americans in the gaming industry. Some may say it's because of unfair trade practices. But you know what? The U.S. (as a whole) accepted this by tolerating these practices AND by the consumers purchasing all these games. Do we have to buy them? NO! Is all this the Japanese's fault? NO! It is the American's "fault". I put that last "fault" in quotes because, personally, I see nothing wrong with purchasing Japanese (or any foreign) products. It's all just part of the expanding global economy.

This is really getting stupid . . . Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything. The choice is yours. Don't blame anyone but yourself.

Yes, this debate really has become absurd. It's nothing but a giant blame game. We're not talking about a food embargo here, we're talking about products that people, for the most part, have done without for thousands of years.

[d_dudy]

can we please get an economist in here to tell the socialists what free marketism is?

or did you guys just make it blatently clear?

[TechWins]

Speaking of hypocritical . . . see the next quote

You misinterpreted my post, which is fully understandable with all the shifting sarcasim and irrogance. I fully agree with everything that you said here "The Japanese did beat us Americans in the gaming industry. Some may say it's because of unfair trade practices. But you know what? The U.S. (as a whole) accepted this by tolerating these practices AND by the consumers purchasing all these games. Do we have to buy them? NO! Is all this the Japanese's fault? NO! It is the American's "fault". I put that last "fault" in quotes because, personally, I see nothing wrong with purchasing Japanese (or any foreign) products. It's all just part of the expanding global economy.". I could realy careless whether I'm buying a Sony game or a Sega game. If the Sony game is better than I'll buy it; if the Sega game is better then I'll buy that one instead. It's all irrelevant.

Well, I think my point has been proven by somebody misinterpreting my post.