Two Questions

[Alynzia]

As the title indicates so concisely, I have two questions.

1. If you have Roze in your game, and another player with The Planetary Datalinks (it was Yang). You have a pact with another faction and the two of you trade every tech you each research. How does the 'any tech known to three others' work when there are two trading and two entitled to the knowledge that three others get. That was driving me crazy in my last game. How does that work?!

2. A silly, but fun if you are me question. When you first got Alpha Centauri and then Alien Crossfire, which factions were you instantly attracted to? Is this an insight into your beliefs or something? On playing Alpha Centauri for the first few times, I absolutely had to be Sister Alynzia of the Believers. I'm no fanatical Christian, but I loved Miriam's gharish orange faction and the weird looking 'sandcastle' cities. For Alien Crossfire I played the Data Angels first, because even though I hated their cities and girly violet units, Sinder Roze is my kind of person.

Alynzia.

[Ned]

The Data Angels get the tech from three other factions with whom they have infiltration. The Datalinks operates on all factions regardless.

As soon as three factions have the tech, the tech is given to the person having the Datalinks. Ditto the Data Angels if she has infiltration.

Two people trading tech do not automatically give the tech to the person with the Datalinks or to the Angels. However, it does make it easier for the Links to work b/c only one more faction needs to get the tech for there to be three.

I too like the Angels. They are my favorite faction.

I also think the Datalinks is a critical SP. Most on this board do not.

Ned

[RedFred]

A couple comments... On Roze's tech steal ability - it only works for her if she has infiltrated the right factions. And the Datalinks seems to give you techs from other factions researched after your completion of your SP, but not before.

If only two factions have the tech, your main consideration is to avoid being infiltrated by Roze. But if you are trading all your tech to another faction then they are vulnerable too. If it is an AI faction and a pactmate, it would be possible to station a defensive spy in each of the pactmate's bases. But in practice, I have never bothered.

[RedFred]

Sorry for the echo, Ned. I cross-posted.

BTW, as you have probably already figured out, my fav faction from even before the game came out was the Gaians. The Firaxian website used to have a brief questionnaire used to match you with a faction, so I have always been a Gaian fan.

In SMACX was harder for me to truly identify with any faction. I think I started as an Aki fan.

[Method]

when i first got smac and when i had the demo, i liked the UoP. (i only found out about SE just before i got the full version ). when i got smax i thought i'd try out the CyCon, but i didn't like it, so, i went for the pirates hence my little symbol thingy.

As the the planet data, i have never received a free tech from it, and i have never heard of the AI getting a tech from the planet data or from roze's spy thing

[WhiteElephants]

I too have was drawn to the Gaians and have played them consistently for quite some time. I don't know if I'm just bored with them, but I find myself drawn to other more powerful factions lately.

My 2 cents.

[Avenoct]

The Datalinks, or that ability are incredibly powerful, but not for the human player if they are playing too easy a game.

Many people enjoy playing a game where they get an early tech lead and multiply it. Certainly, winning is insured that way. But if you create a scenario or otherwise play at your level, share-tech is just about the best thing you can have. If you are playing against pacted coalitions of AI (see recent scenarios), you can totally forget about focusing on tech, concentrating on energy and rush-building instead. Also, if you play on a huge map with tech stagnation, gaining even a small handfull of techs through the links will make a critical difference.

Having run about 200 testgames for Aldebaran with a faction that has a 'Sharetech, 3' ability, but poor research ability, I've seen that faction maintain a tech-edge untill far into the mid-game. Trust me, AI that have share-tech or the datalinks gain techs. If you'd like to see for yourself, run a few auto-games with the editor on. Each tech discovered by anyone is announced in this format.

It comes down to 5 factors:

1. smaller the map, more tech-trading, datalinks ability more important initially, more powerful overall as the AI will trade techs often, esp. to gang up on the human.
larger the map, less the human can trade or steal tech, datalinks more important in midgame. AI won't be able to cooperate on research as effectively, human wil outpace the AI in sheer research power before the AI can contribute to his/her techs via datalinks.

2. rate of tech-research: slow tech development make any advantage more important.

3. game/scenario difficulty: the harder the game, the more powerful the AI, the more important the datalinks

4. whether the player has 'vassal states', submissive AI factions. If so, then having the datalinks isn't so important for the human, but even more powerful for a 3rd party AI faction.

5. auto-pacted (in a scenario) or pacted AI factions. When the AI teams up, the Datalinks (or sharetech) is more important than ever. Contrary to belief, AI pacted factions don't always share all their tech. Datalinks for the pacted factions increase their edge, but for the human, increase the likelihood that each tech discovered by one AI will be discovered by 3, and hence, fall into their laps.

Er, that was longer than I intended..

-Smack

[MariOne]

Building up on Ned's and Smack's exhaustive replies, I might contribute 0.02 euros to question 1.

Assume in a game you have Roze, PDL, A, B, C, D & E factions.
If a tech is known to A who trades it to B, but not to any other, the fact that there a two sharetech factions in the game does not count for a 3rd "virtual" faction, if that's what Alynzia imagined, you need and actual 3rd one obtaining it somehow.

As Ned said the key is that PDL can get a tech from any 3 faction, while Roze needs 3 infiltrated factions to get it.

If Roze has infiltrated A & B but not any other, she needs to infiltrate a 3rd faction.
Now, her best take is to infiltrate the PDL faction itself!

- Roze has infiltration on A, B & C
If the tech known by A & B is obtained by C, she'll get it, as the PDL faction will also do.
If the tech is obtained by D and/or E, the PDL will get it, but NOT Roze.

- Roze has infiltration on A, B & PDL
If the tech known by A & B is obtained by ANY other faction (C/D/E), the PDL will get it, and *then* Roze will get it too b/c PDL is her 3rd infiltrated faction.

Of course if Roze has infiltration on A & B, and a tech is known by A & C or C & D, etc., Roze just has to wake up and get some more probes doing their infiltration job!

NOTE: I'm assuming this offhand, by common sense (which often is the wrong thing to use with FurXs), as I never got to enjoy SMAX factions, just playtested them very briefly and didn't get to verify firsthand my straightforward assumptions here.

---
About defending a Pactmate's base with your probes, I remember that I also thought so, but when I actually tested it didn't work, my (HSA!) probes just sat there while my pactmate got probed.

I also once conventionally attacked an AI base which was hosting his human pactmate's recon rover (the human was also my pactmate). I took out all the AI garrisons without problems, but when I out of curiosity tested the last attack, as expected I was asked whether I wanted to declare vendetta as the lone rover was finally elected to defend.
OTOH in a similar situation (involving humans only tho), my first jet attack was denied because my pactmate's AAA plasma hosted in my enemy's base was elected to defend first.

This would suggest that the best defender in base is picked, regardless of the owner. I don't know whether a (eventually weaker) designated defender will be taken in consideration if not a base owner's unit.
Instead, against probe attacks, only base faction's probes will defend the base from probing, guest probes will not meddle in probe combat, as base probing is not a "physical" attack against them. One could wonder what happens if a local probe is engaged in probe combat but a stronger guest probe is also in base... remember that you can't designate probes.

[Bob Morane]

As said, the Pl datalinks can be very useful if some factions are trading tech. I take the opportunity of this thread to tell that you should always try to get the PLD even if you don't think you could use it (unless you really have other plans), cause this will prevent an AI from getting it (and the AI will use it).
For Roze, I think the best thing she could do is building the Empath Guild, as the x-fire version of this SP does not only give comlink for every factions, but also free infiltration in every faction.

And about my favorites factions.
For SMAC, the Gaians, as many people I think, and my second favorite is the Spartan Federation (not because I'm a militarist, but cause they are funny to play if u want to kick some ass).
For SMACx, I got it recently, so I didn't play everyone, but I have some sympathy for Roze, and Sven.

[Dictatress]

About my favorite faction: it's the Spartan Federation. Spartan Federation only and forever! I love their militaristic society and even the harsh outlines of their bases. Yeah, it reflects my philosophy and personality. Whenever I play, I'm out for war , and I love a faction that fights well.

What can I add to the discussion about the Datalinks... I've never built them yet. The way I see it, if half of my rivals have a tech, I should have it through my own efforts by then. But it could really save your neck if you are behind. *nod* I'm getting wiser.

[RedFred]

Interesting post by MariOne. An aside perhaps, but WRT the ineffectiveness of defensive probes in your pactmate's city, I should have realised that the programmers never though very hard about this. In situations where I have had a conventional unit in a AI pactmate's city and the city has been subverted by a mutual enemy, my unit has remained in the enemy city along with any enemy units that see fit to enter. We can't battle until I move away from the city.

Similarly, two AI factions in vendetta but both allied to me (unusual, but it happens) can each have their units sit side-by-side in my cities but a battle will likely break out if one of the two combatants steps outside.

Somewhat closer to topic, I have seen my AI pactmate's probe team sitting in my base battle an enemy probe, but of course, this may just be my pactmate's probe team going on the offensive.

[Ned]

Dictatress, the Datalinks is important to keep out of the hands of the enemy. Think about this. Suppose you have two pact mates, preferably submisssive. If you try to keep them even with you by giving them tech and they in turn give you their tech so that you are all cooperating on research, what you end up doing is giving the tech to the faction with the Links as well. This is a very undesirable result. So as a practical matter, not having the Links severely hampers ones ability to conduct cooperative research.

Ned

[WhiteElephants]

I've found the Planetary Datalinks to be infinitely more important in Multiplayer games when there are factions that are actually gaining new techs at least once a decade.

In single player games the AI are dunces who rarely research much beyond Cyberethics anyhow as they fail to put in place the infrastructure capable of handling the huge research costs of late game techs. Unless your denying yourself the use of crawlers I can't foresee how the AI would beat you to this project anyhow, and unless your denying yourself the use of choppers I don't see how the AI would last after your discovery of MMI.

eXplore, eXpand, eX-wife(?), eXterminate... that's how the cookie crumbles my friends.

My quasi-rant.

[Avenoct]

Oh, question two: I was immediately attracted to the University and to the Hive. I don't think I even played another faction for the first 50 games.

WhiteE: we love rants! I'll have to make you a scenario where the only 'Ex' is your faction's chances.

[WhiteElephants]

Smells like teen eXcrement.

[Basil]

In a 0-player game (7 AI's) that I ran as a test, the University had developed Grav Ships by 2300. So the AI's not completely incapable of researching past Cybernetics In fact, the AI-Progenitors almost always get to D:AP before I do.

I have one game as the Spartans where my three of my four AI-slaves contribute as much to the communal research as the Spartans do. I had another game as the Gaians where the Usurpers built the Cloning Vats; I kept on sharing tech with my 2 submissive AI's and couldn't figure out where all the Usurper probe teams were - they must have had probe teams, right? 'cause every time I gave tech to my subs the Usurpers got the tech

Just out of curiousity, do you (WhiteElephants) play blind research or directed research in SP?

[WhiteElephants]

Basil -- I don't play single player anymore, but when I did I usually played directed research though I've tried blind, double-blind, double-blind and deaf, and double-blind, deaf, and parapalegic.

In your games you should have just bumped those AI's off. Your overall research and energy income would have been much better. I'm not convinced that AI could have built enough sizable cities to make commerce income profitable. Perhaps I'm wrong. The only way I can fathom that the AI contributed as much research as your faction is if you kept the size of your empire quite small. eXpand.

[Ned]

WE, I agree, the AI normally is easy. But, if you make a few mods to the game, it plays a lot better. More on that below. Right now, I am in the another serious game with the AI where LAL has been ahead the whole game and has aroung 70% of the SP's. Talk about infrastructure, LAL and every other AI's infrastructure in this game is just as good as my own. But just to place matters in perspective, the combined Planetary Governor votes for all other factions, include my own (Miriam) are aroung 70% of LAL's. It is just amazing what the AI can do if it gets the lead.

I have posted these mods in other threads, but they are:

- make all factions passive
- set all factions interests to build, explore, discover
- give them a free former to start
- delay farms to Gene Splicing
- delay mines to IA
- delay solar to Adaptive Economics
- move Genejacks to Optical Computers
- add +1 police to Fundy and Power

The human player in turn must use double-blind - no research fields selected.

Also, try using a huge or large map.

WE, if you haven't tried a game two with these settings, you will be amazed at how much better the AI plays.

Ned

[WhiteElephants]

Bah! Quit screwing with the Alpaha.txt and join a PBEM game for Christ's sake. You could focus all that time and energy into playing human beings who are already a challenge rather than futzing around trying to create a challenge for yourself.

I'm proud to say I've finished two PBEM's and lost both of them. So, quit playing with yourself and join up. Single player games are a fad of the 90's it's time to get on the ball.

Besides all I can see that you've accomplished is delaying the inevitable. Aren't you still just waiting for D:AP, IA, and MMI? So, what you've done is enlarge the window where the AI actually has an opportunity to damage you, yes?

[Avenoct]

It's been awhile since anyone let a screw loose in the Strategies section. I encourage your insanity WhiteE.

I suppose I should just ignore your position on SP vs. MP being that you are clearly drunk and have been drunk for weeks. But in the interests of spurring on your rants, and possibly vaulting an opinion onto this Off-Topic, I'll venture a comment.

SP will never die. SMAC is the perfect example of why this is true. For many of us, lengthy games of strategy, in a turn based environment, are just the best thing. Some of us might play 4 or even 6 hours at a time.

I think there are really two main factors that make SP valuable:

One: It's simply the convenience of only having to find your own time rather than to coordinate the same 4 hour blocks with another player (or whatever length of time is 'optimal' for your enjoyment).

Two: SP games have a different feeling precisely because they are 'vs.' the computer, the ai, whatever you want to call it. Perhaps interacting with an AI isn't yet as challenging as with a human in the vastly complex Civ-type games, but it's somehow the very fact that you are competing with a completely logical intelligence, one that you may or may not be able to predict, one that you might be able to make empirical changes to, one that is a contained mystery. Perhaps its the same reason people masturbate, as you imply. Whatever it is, it's fun in a whole different way than playing versus humans.

For those and other reasons, SP will live forever.

Now, to get a drink and join you.

-Smack

P.S. The question of Realtime Strategy vs. Turn Based Strategy is interesting. As the off-topicers don't even talk about Civ's, I'll open a thread on this here in our otherwise pure strategy section.

[WhiteElephants]

[Black Sunrise]

, what you end up doing is giving the tech to the faction with the Links as well. This is a very undesirable result

I play tech-give.
Give everyone every tech you get as soon as you get it. TRY to give away techs, don't wait for them to ask.
Why? So they have something worth stealing. I'm usually a little behind on techs when I play this way, but we get into orbit MUCH sooner.
Indra