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Old August 25, 2001, 04:34   #31
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Could be wrong about the Alexander thing...

When you read enough anecdotes, they all blend into each other eventually.
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Old August 25, 2001, 05:13   #32
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I'm not really bothered abou the historical accuracy or what he looks like but the picture of him does not have good graphics. It is a much lower picture quality compared to the other pictures we've seen. Does anyone else see this or is it just my computer??

 
Old August 25, 2001, 08:25   #33
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Geez. I have not seen such a whining thread for ages. I mean, people.

I am a history major and can recite you the whole biography of Alexander back and forth. Also I DO know Aristotle was more important than just a teacher of Alexander. And I DO know that the Greek democracy was not a full democracy.

Actually I would expect everybody who is not a neanderthal history-wise to know that.

BUT www.civ3.com is NOT a history encyclopedia. If you don't know historical facts (or feel so unsecure about your knowledge that you need to point out every single incaccuracy made for the sake of humour) than read some freaking book or take history classes.

When I open the "civ of the week" feature I expect it to introduce me to the feel and general style of civilisation IN GAME, rather than throw at me thousands of hard facts and dates. I do NOT need a game site to teach me who Aristotle was.

Humorus variations about the facts and dates only add a nice comic value to the whole thing. And for this credit should go to Dan Magaha, who does a great job.

And finally about the leader portrait. Yes, he does not look like Alexander. What Firaxis did I believe was to take a name of the most widely know Greek (Macedonian, I know) and put him as the leader of civilisation that, except for exactly the Alexander's episode, was commercial and scientific. And this guy sure LOOKS commercial and scientific to me.

So, I will say something I read so rarely here: I AM HAPPY.

Now, can we please move to discussing the potential pros and cons of Greeks and phalanx in the game, rather than continue this high-school level pseudo-historical debate?
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Old August 25, 2001, 08:50   #34
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for the sake of Martinus, i'm quoting a great man

Quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
historical accuracy is part of the fun of the game. especially when it comes to "great library" texts where find something that is historically correct is not very hard, or when we are talking about a face that you will be seeing a lot in the game and which is supposed to give you the illusion that you're having hard diplomatic discussions with a great leader!

now if that's the image of someone who conquered the known world in 10 years.....
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Old August 25, 2001, 09:02   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
for the sake of Martinus, i'm quoting a great man
LOL

I also am a great history freak and love all those pseudo-historical thrills while playing Civilisation. But the leader looks good for a commercial and scientific civ.

Those who do not know history still have heard of Alexander, but haven't seen his pictures probably, so it will not bother them.

Those, like us, who know history, surely can rename the leader to someone known to us, like Pericles or Cleistenes, or some other pinko-commie democrat (pun intended ) of ancient Athens.
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Old August 25, 2001, 09:16   #36
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Ok, I have just seen some people arguing Greeks should be militaristic and expansionistic rather than commercial and scientific, their greatest achievment being the Alexander's conquest, so I take back what I have said.

Firaxis, PLEASE make the game a history lesson with 5-page must-read pop-up every 10 turns. You should not be able to turn the feature off. Also, the foreign leaders you meet should be saying something like that:

"Great Bluto, we will enter a peace treaty with you, but only if you tell us whether Plato was a great:
a) hoplite,
b) philosopher,
c) Greek athlete."
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Old August 25, 2001, 09:58   #37
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I realize Civ3 is just a game - and it will be a great game - and I like Dan's humour.

But Alexander the Great should look like Alexander the Great. If not, why put him in at all? Why not make up a fictional name and character? After all, it's just a game.

Imagine the game picturing Lincoln as short, fat with blond hair? Hey, it's only a game right? Yes - but if you're going to use historical images of real leaders of the past - then at least get those images right.

The black Cleopatra looks like she could whip this whimpy, pasty-faced Alexander with one arm tied behind her back.

These images distort history. A whole new generation is coming along who will probably become interested in reading about history because of this game. That's right. . .

BTW, I understand that a movie about Alexnader the Great is being made, as well as one about the Battle of Thermopylae. Historical movies - happy days
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Old August 25, 2001, 11:08   #38
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Veto!
The game Civilisation has a long tradition and loyal fans which do *not* deserve
sloppy work. It is one advantage of civ that one learns something about history
while playing - I hate CTP for its "Televangelist". Fun is important (after all it's a game)
but historical accuracy is one point why civ has always been superior to other god
games.
IMHO there have been far too many games during the last few years which
*desperately* wanted to be "funny".
Please, at least try to keep an eye on such things like Alexanders pic. *begging*

Arent

History lesson? 5 page must read pop up? COOL!
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Old August 26, 2001, 01:17   #39
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Yeah, "funny" is not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. If it is argued that if I want historical accuracy I should read a history book, then the proper response is that if I want humor I'll go watch Monty Python rather than play Civ. The humor on the site, Dan's prose, that I enjoy, I don't have any problem with that, just keep the yuks out of the game. This worn-out, suck-faced, lipless priss who is represented to be Alexander is funny looking, yes, but maybe we should write a skit around him instead of a game .

Would it really have required any extra effort to make an Alexander that actually looks somewhat like Alexander? Or is it just that Firaxis wants to make him look like a clown, because Civ3 is supposed to be "funny"? (Hardy-har.) And no, he doesn't look commercial and scientific to me, he just looks weak and yet condescending, like some petty bureaucrat, not an emperor, and he looks a lot older than 33. A big thumbs-down for this Alexander, though I haven't been too impressed with any of the leaders so far. Maybe there will be an expansion pack with some historically accurate leaders....
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Old August 26, 2001, 02:09   #40
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MY GOD!!! Your all so whiny, it's like talking to a bunch of highly educated children!!! Its a recreation of history, who said in my history Alex didn't wan to express his homosexuality, and that he is constapated (J/K). Firaxis dosen't even have to make you guys a game, they could always go back to dinosours, SMAC 2, etc. These things they cant be yelled at for being wrong becouse no one has any proof of what they were or will be like. Cut them some fricken slack will ya! I enjoy there history, the greak UU and there bonuses, yes Alexander scares me a bit but i rather they hammer out a good GAME, and not worry all that much about graphics. Maybe they had to choose between a good AI or a accurate picture of Alexander. Maybe, for once, everyone could stop being so fricking pissy, and all shall live in peace, and all will rejoice *yay*
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Old August 26, 2001, 02:14   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by El hidalgo
Yeah, "funny" is not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. If it is argued that if I want historical accuracy I should read a history book, then the proper response is that if I want humor I'll go watch Monty Python rather than play Civ. The humor on the site, Dan's prose, that I enjoy, I don't have any problem with that, just keep the yuks out of the game. This worn-out, suck-faced, lipless priss who is represented to be Alexander is funny looking, yes, but maybe we should write a skit around him instead of a game .

Would it really have required any extra effort to make an Alexander that actually looks somewhat like Alexander? Or is it just that Firaxis wants to make him look like a clown, because Civ3 is supposed to be "funny"? (Hardy-har.) And no, he doesn't look commercial and scientific to me, he just looks weak and yet condescending, like some petty bureaucrat, not an emperor, and he looks a lot older than 33. A big thumbs-down for this Alexander, though I haven't been too impressed with any of the leaders so far. Maybe there will be an expansion pack with some historically accurate leaders....
or maybe you could stop thinking about your self and relize that firaxis is making a game, not a picture gallery. To think you are the same people that will whine when they release a bad AI becouse there budget had to go to a bunch of pictures that affect the game by smiling or frowning.
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Old August 26, 2001, 14:13   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by splangy
Maybe they had to choose between a good AI or a accurate picture of Alexander.
Yes, or maybe they didnīt care. Maybe they simply didnīt bother to find out what Alexander looked like. Or maybe they have a bad artist. Or maybe they were just sloppy.

An accurate picture and an inaccurate picture would take exactly the same amount of time.
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Old August 26, 2001, 23:54   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by splangy


or maybe you could stop thinking about your self and relize that firaxis is making a game, not a picture gallery. To think you are the same people that will whine when they release a bad AI becouse there budget had to go to a bunch of pictures that affect the game by smiling or frowning.
Only partly guilty as charged. True, I'd like a better representation for my own selfish reasons (I just like it better that way), but what about all those players out there who come to believe that that's what Alexander looked like? And I don't see how it would take any longer to make an accurate versus an inaccurate representation. It's probably quicker to make it accurate, since all you have to do is copy (or perhaps 'translate' is the more appropriate word) rather than invent.

And why does it always come down to AI with you people -- "we can't do anything or it will screw up the AI. If something doesn't suck, that means the AI will suck." Maybe we should just have stick figures -- then we'd have a really kick-ass AI! (Am I allowed to say 'ass' on Apolyton? If not, I'm sorry.)
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Old August 27, 2001, 00:43   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

An accurate picture and an inaccurate picture would take exactly the same amount of time.
Let's assume for a moment that the picture on the website is the one that will be used in the game. If that is the case then I would bet there is not enough time to make radical changes. Remember, these portraits are animated.

Dan: on the work. It is extremely difficult to write something that will be read by young and old.
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Old August 27, 2001, 00:54   #45
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If this game was representing fictional characters, then who really cares what they look like.

But these were very REAL leaders that we have all read about in the past.

This makes all the difference in the game. And not just ANY game - but the grand-daddy of them all - Civ III - and by the master of the Civ genre - Sid Meier.

From a company like Firaxis and from a game designer like Meier, we should expect quality AND accuracy.

These images (like poor 'ol Alex) have been the result of hours of work. They most likely started with sketches of what Alex looked like. They were shown at the weekly meetings. People had to discuss and AGREE on the image they were going to use. Then that image they selected was then rendered in 3D on the computer.

Again, probably every week or two, the artists had to provide an up-date on this image of Alex. All the facial expressions, movement, etc all had to be worked out in painstaking detail.

No my friends, this pathetic image of Alex was NO accident. Many people had to AGREE on the image they were going to use. And many hours went into the creation of it. To suggest that they did not know what Alex looked like is laughable. Are there no libraries nearby?

Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life. They seem to reflect a particular outlook:

A politically correct, revisionist history outlook that simply doesn't square with actual history nor with common sense.

It would have taken just as long to make an accurate Alex or Cleopatra, as it did these laughable representations of them.

Don't get me wrong - I love Meier's games - I have all of them. And I am expecting BIG things from this game. But this type of graphical representation of well-known historical figures is just too sloppy for my taste. If I want fiction, I'll play space games.

But when I want to re-live moments in history, I like to play Civ and the many wonderful scenarios that dedicated scenario designers have poured their hearts into making. Does anyone recall Red Front? Colonies? Spartacus? Seeds of Greatness? Imperium Romanum? I could go on and on. . . These scenarios were GREAT because their creators took their subject matter seriously, and these scenarios have become classics as a result of the love they had for their subject matter.

Don't give me comedy; give me a great game.

Don't give me sloppiness; give me a product that treats its subject matter with some respect.

Don't fail the thousands of dedicated fans; and in return, they will give you their money
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Old August 27, 2001, 01:19   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leonidas
Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life.
well until now they were pretty much ok....

http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/leaders.shtml
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Old August 27, 2001, 05:38   #47
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Meself and other Apolytoners have noticed the inconsistent portrait of Alexander from the early days, when he first appeared on promotional screenshots of Firaxis.

We noticed it, we asked for an explanation but none was forthcoming.

Fact remains that this guy looks nothing like Alexander. If they wanted something funny they could put one of the three stooges in his place... Proportionately they would be funnier and look more like Alexander..

But what can you do...
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Old August 27, 2001, 07:53   #48
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Sheesh, more pathetic whinings...
It's absolutely amazing that most of you know exactly what Alexander looked like (or didn't look like) without the distortion from the artists from many different eras. Even a bust or statue from the time of Alexander perhaps wouldn't even be close to accurate since they would want to portray him in the image of a hero warrior, regardless of what he may have looked like. And taken to a more extreme would be the Greek revivalists of the Renassaince (sp?), which some of you claims to be accurate.

If any of you can produce a photograph of Alexander, than I will stand corrected; in the meantime, don't display your whining ignorance.
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Old August 27, 2001, 08:12   #49
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Re: Sheesh, more pathetic whinings...
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Clark
It's absolutely amazing that most of you know exactly what Alexander looked like (or didn't look like) without the distortion from the artists from many different eras. Even a bust or statue from the time of Alexander perhaps wouldn't even be close to accurate since they would want to portray him in the image of a hero warrior, regardless of what he may have looked like. And taken to a more extreme would be the Greek revivalists of the Renassaince (sp?), which some of you claims to be accurate.
first of all, this image hardly looks idealistic to me


beyond that, even if you are correct, why not use the most accepted(to be accurate) depiction instead of doing an image that is totally wrong?
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Old August 27, 2001, 08:27   #50
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But why that one (which I like, btw) and not something that looks like either of the two busts your posted? Aren't we being just as guilty of wanting to portray Alexander as we want to imagine him whereas any one of the several images could be right or they could all be wrong.

BTW, what is the story behind that image with the sideburns?
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Old August 27, 2001, 08:42   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Clark
But why that one (which I like, btw) and not something that looks like either of the two busts your posted? Aren't we being just as guilty of wanting to portray Alexander as we want to imagine him whereas any one of the several images could be right or they could all be wrong.
the thing is that almost all images of Alexander has some common factors, and the civ3 Alexander has no resamblance at all...

Quote:
BTW, what is the story behind that image with the sideburns?
what image?
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Old August 27, 2001, 08:47   #52
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this one...

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Old August 27, 2001, 09:07   #53
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oh, this one is from a mosaic in Pompeii, showing the battle between Alexander and Darius


see also this
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/CGProgra.../alexander.jpg


btw, here are two sculptures, the heads of Philip and Alexander, found in Philip's tomb, in Vergina
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Old August 27, 2001, 12:40   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leonidas

These images (like poor 'ol Alex) have been the result of hours of work. They most likely started with sketches of what Alex looked like. They were shown at the weekly meetings. People had to discuss and AGREE on the image they were going to use. Then that image they selected was then rendered in 3D on the computer.

Again, probably every week or two, the artists had to provide an up-date on this image of Alex. All the facial expressions, movement, etc all had to be worked out in painstaking detail.

No my friends, this pathetic image of Alex was NO accident. Many people had to AGREE on the image they were going to use. And many hours went into the creation of it. To suggest that they did not know what Alex looked like is laughable. Are there no libraries nearby?

Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life. They seem to reflect a particular outlook:

A politically correct, revisionist history outlook that simply doesn't square with actual history nor with common sense.
Now, on Cleo I agree. But, with Alexander, why brainwashing anybody into thinking he looked like an Italian shopkeeper? Do they have something against the ancient Greeks?
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Old August 27, 2001, 12:49   #55
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Great pictures MarkG

Comrade Tribune: You agree that Cleo was BLACK? Hmmm, she had a Greek lineage (Ptolemy). Olive-skinned maybe, but black? Nothing more than revisionist history. . .

Now onto Alexander:

OK, let's for a moment assume that we know absolutely nothing about what he looked like.

So, let's build an image of him from what we know about him.

By accounts written about Alex, he was athletic, well-read, and highly intelligent. He was extremely brave, always leading from the front, inspiring his men, etc.

Alexander spent years outdoors, hunting, horseback riding, living under the stars.

Couple this with the fact that he had YEARS of training in the arts of war: fighting with the sword, throwing spears, running, etc

Then add the fact that he spent YEARS on very tough campaigns under the hot sun in Persia - outdoors, walking , riding, fighting, etc.

So, what image do we get from all of the above? First, Alex would have had a deeply tanned, weather-beaten face. Perhaps a few scars adorned his face and/or other extremities. He would have been thickly muscled, well-toned, and wearing the expression of someone who has seen a great deal of fighting and death.

He would have LOOKED like a KING who was filled with bravery, firmness, kindness and cruelty.

Just one example should suffice. During one seige, when it was time to attack the walls, Alexander was the first soldier up the ladder to scale the wall. He was fast, strong and brave. He reached the top of the wall, only to be confronted by several enemy soldiers, whom Alexander beat off and subdued. Then he rushed forward to fight other enemy soldiers who were manning the wall. By this time, he was joined by several of his own soldiers, and they all fought to take the city.

Do you realize how much strength and energy it takes to scale walls, and fight for your life against enemy soldiers?

Does the present image in the game represent THIS Alexander?

Last edited by Leonidas; August 27, 2001 at 12:56.
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Old August 27, 2001, 13:09   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leonidas
So, what image do we get from all of the above? First, Alex would have had a deeply tanned, weather-beaten face. Perhaps a few scars adorned his face and/or other extremities. He would have been thickly muscled, well-toned, and wearing the expression of someone who has seen a great deal of fighting and death.
That is a very prejudicial opinion and in some notable cases, a very wrong conclusion based on the facts. I recently read an account of an English prince (I forgot who, sorry) who basically had many of the exact same attributes and lifestyle as Alexander (led military campaigns against the French, spend considerable time outdoors engaging in the recreational pursuits typical of the nobility, etc.). So perhaps he was a man's man like Alexander, with weather-beaten face? Hardly, he was feminine fop who wore white makeup, false eyelashes and lipstick.

I am not saying Alexander could have not have had a ruddy look, but you are jumping to the wrong conclusions based on anecdotal evidence. And a very prejudice one as well.
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Old August 27, 2001, 13:45   #57
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Quote by Steve Clark:

"That is a very prejudicial opinion and in some notable cases, a very wrong conclusion based on the facts. I recently read an account of an English prince (I forgot who, sorry) who basically had many of the exact same attributes and lifestyle as Alexander (led military campaigns against the French, spend considerable time outdoors engaging in the recreational pursuits typical of the nobility, etc.). So perhaps he was a man's man like Alexander, with weather-beaten face? Hardly, he was feminine fop who wore white makeup, false eyelashes and lipstick."



Hmmm, an effeminate English prince with many of the same attributes as Alexander? And you don't even know his name? He must have been quite a leader. . .

Yet Alexander conquered the known world. His exploits have fired the imagination of generations of people. He inspired his troops. His name and exploits have endured for thousands of years.

I did not say Alex had a "ruddy" complexion. "Ruddy" means "reddish". I said Alex was deepy tanned and weather-beaten. A very fair assumption, considering that Alex DID campaign for years in Persia outdoors under the hot sun. He LIVED with his men, and endured the many hardships they endured. Prejudicial? It sounds very reasonable based on the facts and common sense.

The current in-game graphical representation that is supposed to be Alexander, is not only prejudical, but would no doubt fit the image of this unknown, effeminate "English prince" you mention. But it hardly squares with what was written about the real Alexander.

Just look at anyone today who plays sports, camps a great deal, goes hiking and horseback riding, etc -- they will look tanned and athletic - they will not look like a "shop-keeper".

Years spent fighting with the sword will make you muscular. Just look at the images of Greek and Roman soldiers. Alex was not only a leader, but he actually fought at the front with his men. . .

This type of leader not only inspired his men, but served as an example for how other military leaders should act, from Caesar (who wept at Alexander's grave), to Napoleon and Rommel, and many others. . .
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Old August 27, 2001, 14:04   #58
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You are missing the point. It is prejudical when you look at someone's skin color, build, complexion or whatever and judge such a person to be a shopkeeper or a hero warrior. In my example of that English prince, it wasn't that he was hero as Alexander but if you were to look at his portrait, you would immediately judge that he probable never spent anytime out of doors. Just like I have a friend who looks like the classic nerd (you know the stereotype - slight build, pale, unsociable, etc.) but is one of the best mountain climber and cyclist I know. While it may generally be true that those that are muscular and weathered complexion do spend time outdoors, do not judge a person's image on stereotypical (or prejudicial) views. While we all probably want Alexander to look very "manly" (as seem to be the consensus here, including me), someone who looks like an "Italian shopkeeper" could have very well done the same thing as Alexander. That's all.
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Old August 27, 2001, 14:30   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Clark
someone who looks like an "Italian shopkeeper" could have very well done the same thing as Alexander. That's all.
with the exception that this theory has no real proof, while the oposing theory does have evidence to back it up(sculptures, texts, etc)
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Old August 27, 2001, 14:57   #60
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This Alexander looks like he survived the wars and has settled peacefully in Hellanized Babylon, had a few children by Roxanne, and let them continue future conquests.

Ok, so he doesn't look like the Alexander we know and love. Or hate. True, it'd be nice to have a complete stud there, but I won't whine too much.
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