Bad starting locations

Juggler_Bob · February 9, 2001, 23:12

This is a first for me...

I set up a new game (Customize)
I chose large world, small land masses, archipelago, 5 billion years, King, raging hordes and standard rules, and I chose to be the Americans.

Ok, the game generates the world, and I am pleased to see that I am starting with four bonus techs

Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, and Pottery.

But then I remember from my browsings here at Apolyton that this may just be the game "compensating" me for a lousy starting location...

It is my habit when starting a new game to look to the right side of the screen first (the unit selection box) to see if the game has started me with one or two settlers. I got two!

Then I looked at the map portion of the screen

I don't have any screen capture software, or I would just post the screen and let the image speak for itself.

My two settlers are stranded on a one-tile island (grassland, shield) there are only two other land tiles visible (forest, and grassland, with a hut just begging to be tipped.) The rest is ocean, although there is coastline visible in 4 tiles to the south.

Looks like this (well, not really, but it's the best I can do on the fly with ASCII):

...O O
..O O O
.O O O O
..O I O (c)
.O O C F
..C O H
...C C

Where O = ocean, I = island, C = coastline, F = forest, and H = grassland with hut. the (c) = a dark tile in which the coastline is visible. (Edit: the .'s are necessary to preserve spacing...)

I think I'll play it anyway (you know mapmaking will be the *VERY* first tech I research!)

I saved the 4000 BC, if anyone wants to see it...

I guess I should be thankful that I can at least *SEE* dry land!

Has this (or worse

) ever happened to you?

-Bob

[This message has been edited by Juggler_Bob (edited February 10, 2001).]

Theben · February 10, 2001, 00:05

That's pretty bad. The worst I've ever had happen to me was to be stuck on one of the poles with no connections to decent terrain. Happens quite often in x-small maps with 6-7 civs.

Then again I don't ever expect to be screwed over that badly when I pick large worlds. The worst was an island just large enough for 3 cities (not including ICS).

Now that I think about it, probably the worst start I ever had was an advanced game where my 1 size-6 city had been built on glacier! There wasn't enough food around to support even a size 1 city! I had 7 turns to race with my NON units/settlers to find a decent starting city point and build a new capital before the old one starved to death. Definitely a challenge!

------------------
"Just got back from the Thought Police Station. It's not as bad as you might assume;
they spend most of their time thinking about donuts."-EnochF

Theben · February 10, 2001, 00:08

Look at it this way: your capital should be safe from attack for a long time!

Don't forget that if you put a worker on a tile with a hut, you'll lose the hut (I think).

Scouse Gits · February 10, 2001, 05:46

Yuk! Not a great position to find yourself in at 4000BC. It will be of little compensation but I have seen similar poor starts - sometimes without as many as 4 starting techs.

However, bad starts make good players! You are well on the way to Monarchy and if you are forced to take a non-Monarchy science research Map Making.

Keep us posted!

-----------

SG(2)

Scouse Gits · February 10, 2001, 07:44

If you are checking for two settlers - you aren't playing deity - what level are you playing? Please send me the save, sounds fun ... git1@scousers.net
Good civin'

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Ming · February 10, 2001, 11:39

quote:

Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:08 PM
Don't forget that if you put a worker on a tile with a hut, you'll lose the hut (I think).

That is correct. But you should probably open the hut before starting the city anyway to avoid getting barbs and maybe getting a non unit

jcarkey · February 10, 2001, 11:51

SG, he said King. Ming, he can't get to tip the hut because he's on a one square island.

------------------
If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

She turned me into a newt...well I got better- Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

Julius Brenzaida · February 10, 2001, 14:45

I am interested by the challenge. I’d like to win this one with OCC. Could you send the 4000bc saved game to me ? my e-mail is in my profile. Thanks in advance.
BTW : same thing once happened to me with a gigamap !

------------------
Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

Juggler_Bob · February 10, 2001, 18:31

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:08 PM</font>
Look at it this way: your capital should be safe from attack for a long time!

No doubt!

If I am not mistaken, as long as there is one unit in the city, sea-based attacks will only become possible when Amphibious Warfare is discovered. Of course, a ship itself can bombard the city, but until the discovery of steam engine (Ironclad), this is not a major threat... YMMV...

I played the map a little last night, and here are the results so far...

Map-making is *NOT* among the first techs offered, so I continued along the Monarchy track (Code of Laws). When I got map-making, I explored the lands to the south. It is a small island, with space for two (or even three) cities with some (2 square) overlaps...(or more with 3 cities)

Not a bad position after all for a start, and I am sure I can catch up to the AI's in tech / # of cities.

I will keep you posted...

First time science advisor quote:
Sire, the torch of knowledge sputters in your hands...
He speaks the truth... Trade Advisor

-Bob

[This message has been edited by Juggler_Bob (edited February 10, 2001).]

Ming · February 10, 2001, 20:06

quote:

Originally posted by jcarkey on 02-10-2001 10:51 AM
Ming, he can't get to tip the hut because he's on a one square island.

I know... it was a joke

Bereta_Eder · February 10, 2001, 20:56

I get in nasty starting positions all the time.

Although not as tragic as Juggler!

I used to think it was because of bad luck or because the computer had something againsts greeks.

I later found (of course by reading the Apolyton Forums) a more logical explanation. ( 7 civs pink gets the terrain always last)

The worst was attached on South Pole with 3 squares (tundra, grassland, plains).

The funny thing was I never bothered to relocate my capital because the expansion actually was simetrical to Athens.

By the way NO UNIT EVER approached the capital in that game

rixxe · February 12, 2001, 06:20

quote:

Originally posted by Juggler_Bob on 02-09-2001 10:12 PM

I think I'll play it anyway (you know mapmaking will be the *VERY* first tech I research!)

I saved the 4000 BC, if anyone wants to see it...

Could you send me the savegame please,...?

Bereta_Eder · February 12, 2001, 15:39

Can I have it too plz

Julius Brenzaida · February 12, 2001, 17:17

Thanks Juggler.
I've got the game. Looks tough indeed. 3 ground squares and no specials ! I'll keep everybody informed with a log.

------------------
Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

rixxe · February 13, 2001, 06:43

Where are you from Julius??!

Roman · February 17, 2001, 10:45

I have never had a starting position as tough as that, but then I haven't played very much lately...

CapTVK · February 18, 2001, 17:46

Poor starting locations don't determine the number of tehcs at the start.

I don't think starting locations factor in as heavily as the relative distance to the other civs and the starting locations on the map. A civ that starts in the middle of the map tends to get fewer techs while players at the edge will receive more.

For the record: On a special map (with all civs starting at the edge of the map) I once designed I got 11 techs for my civ!.

Scouse Gits · February 18, 2001, 21:46

1780 and only 5 more German cities to buy and game over - will post the Power Graph during the week once I have actually mopped up - good fun game - hard to play ICS with a five city civ - had to modify my normal style quite considerably...

p.s. added in edit - CapTVK 11! can I have the save please?
------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 18, 2001).]

CapTVK · February 20, 2001, 15:34

Scouse,

I got these sort of tech start results on a special I had designed called "King of the Castle". It used set starting locations on a round map. I used to get big tech starts at every game I tested. Unfortunately I lost my originals when my HD crashed last year but the maps may still be available at kwang's site.

I did draw a quick map to see if it still works. Here are the results:
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-1.gif http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-2.gif http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-3.gif

And the save for the elusive king2-2

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-2.sav

Ribannah · February 20, 2001, 20:31

CapTVK, you included irrigation, mining and road building in your count. Since these are always freely available, we don't count them. The maximum number of advances (from this basic starting point onward) you can get for free at the beginning of the game, is indeed 8.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Scouse Gits · February 21, 2001, 05:11

Aaaah - thanks Rib! - I thought yet another piece of received wisdom had just gone down the tubes! Yes, Eight we can live with - Eleven upsets too much research!

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Scouse Gits · February 22, 2001, 06:46

The treacherous Germans fell in 1792 after sneakily switching to Democracy to avoid my spies they hadn't reckoned on my discovering Tactics that very turn! RIP Germany ...
The Power Graph as promised ...

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 22, 2001).]

Julius Brenzaida · February 22, 2001, 08:15

quote:

Originally posted by rixxe on 02-13-2001 05:43 AM
Where are you from Julius??!

Sorry Rixxe, for not answering earlier. I didn't take a loot at this topic for quite a while. I'm from the Geneve area. And you ?

Julius Brenzaida · February 22, 2001, 08:20

Congratulations Scouse Gits. Very nice game !
I said I was going to play this saved game but never found the time. Maybe later, much later.

------------------
Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

CapTVK · February 23, 2001, 18:30

Could be that I was overcounting in my excitement, still 8 techs at the start is a record. But that's not the point I intended to make. The point is that tech allocation is apparently based on the relative distance to other civs and the map itself. Starting surroundings don't factor in so heavily.
If you would have taken a look at the savegame you would have noticed that the other AI civs all start with 6 techs, except one. Which is the civ in the middle of the map. It is a max distance away from other civs and has a real poor starting location. Yet it doesn't receive any techs!