The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[yin26]

My goal in posting this (something that took me nearly 3 hours, by the way ) is NOT to argue that the Korean civilization should be a priority for Civ3. In my thinking, Civ3 is primarily a game for a euro-centric audience. As such, the small limit of civs Firaxis has chosen to put in the game means that the chosen civs should reflect both the target market and the West's 'understanding' of history, even if that history is flawed or horribly uninformed.

What this post HOPES to do, however, is to make it clear that Korea has long had an amazing culture MORE than worthy of a place, say, in a Civ3 expansion pack. Anybody interested in trying to decide what those civs should be ought to carefully read what follows before dismissing Korea in a fit of ignorance. I, for one, would play the Korean civ with great pride.

Thank you, and I hope this proves helpful to people.

Modern Points of Interest

• Currently the world’s 13th largest economy. Was 11th prior to the IMF Crisis. (Consider: As recently as the 1960’s, Korea was ranked as one of the world’s poorest agrarian nations due to ruin after the Japanese occupation and Korean War…thus the famous phrase: “Miracle of the Han River”).
• Seoul is the world's 4th most populous city. Statistics for 2001: 1 Tokyo, Japan 29.9 million. 2 Mexico City, Mexico 27.8 million. 3 São Paulo, Brazil 25.3 million. 4 Seoul, South Korea 21.9 million. 5 New York, USA 14.6 million. 6 Osaka, Japan 14.2 million. 7 Bombay, India 15.3 million 8 Calcutta, India 14.1 million. 9 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 14.1 million. 10 Buenos Aires, Argentina 12.9 million.
• South Korea is the world's 3rd most densely populated country measured by humans per km² (now at 476): Rank / country area (km²) / Population / July 1999 est. humans per km²: (1) Bangladesh 144,000 127,117,967 883 (2) Taiwan 35,980 22,113,250 615 (3) Korea, South 98,480 46,884,800 476 (4) Palestine (West Bank + Gaza Strip) 6,220 2,723,763 438 (5) Puerto Rico 9,104 3,887,652 427
• Over the past three decades, Korea has enjoyed an annual average economic growth of 8.6 percent.
• The nation's foreign currency reserves that totaled a mere US$3.8 billion as of the end of 1997 rose to US$76.8 billion at the end of January 2000, and the nation has been able to repay all the US$13.5 billion rescue loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). To date, Korea has made the fastest recovery EVER from an IMF bailout.
• As one of the largest import markets in the world, the volume of Korea's imports exceeded those of China in 1995, and was comparable to the imports of Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines combined.
• World's largest shipbuilder and second biggest steel producer.
• Incheon Airport-World's Largest by 2020?: Four hours' flight time from 43 cities of more than one million people, Incheon airport (opened in March 2001) is becoming the transport hub of northern Asia. That means big facilities. The passenger terminal floor space is equivalent to 60 soccer fields and houses prayer and "nap" rooms along with the obligatory brand-name boutiques. When second-stage construction is completed in 2020, Incheon is expected to handle 100 million passengers and seven million tonnes of cargo a year, making it the world's biggest airport.
• Hyundai and Samsung are two of the world's major DRAM (memory microchips) producers.
• Korea currently has the highest rate of broadband Internet use. At last count, Korean subscribers to high-speed Internet exceeded 4 million, a whopping 77 times the number two years earlier, according to government statistics.
• Koreans lead online gaming in Asia and the world: Online gaming is rapidly gaining in popularity in Asia, particularly in Korea, where 65 percent of all Internet users visited a games website in January 2001. “Professional Gaming” is a viable profession in South Korea with some 30 professional gamers earning $30,000+ / year.
• Largest (in terms of membership totaling over 1,000,000) Christian church in the world.
• Koreans have great concern for education, and illiteracy is almost non-existent. Compare with the United Nations findings about the United States: “The last nationwide studies of the literacy rate were in 1982 and 1986. According to the 1982 study, adults in the United States over the age of 20 had a 13 per cent illiteracy rate. The 1986 study concerned young adults between the ages of 20 and 24, measured by standards of fourth, eighth, and eleventh grade reading levels. The results showed that 6 per cent were illiterate at a fourth grade level, 20.2 per cent were illiterate at an eighth grade level, and 38.5 per cent were illiterate at an eleventh grade level.”
• In 1999-2000, Korean students participated in educational programs in 71 countries. They sent more than 41,000 students to the United States, according to the Open Doors Report, making them the nation’s fourth largest group of international students. Realizing that international education forms a substantial part of the U.S.’s income, Korea likewise represents a substantial partner.
• Many shows like the Simpsons are actually produced in Korea and shipped back to the U.S. for broadcasting.
• Prior to Sydney, staged the “most successful Olympic games in history.”
• The martial art of Taekwondo is one of the world's most widely-recognized and will soon be an Olympic event.
• Will Co-host the 2002 World Cup with Japan.
• In the past 2,000 years, Korea has been attacked or invaded nearly 1,000 times. And yet, it has never lost its cultural identity.

UNESCO Cultural Heritage Listings: UNESCO has recognized the value of Korean culture by including several (7) Korean treasures on its World Heritage List (Egypt, in contrast, only has 5). See: http://www.korea.net/2k/data/d/11/02/Content.htm for better pictures/explanations.

• Seokguram Grotto: "This Buddha embodies a rarefied aesthetic which is, indeed, rare."
  
• Janggyeongpanjeon: The canon, the oldest and most comprehensive compilation of Buddhist scripture in existence today, was carved on 81,340 woodblocks between 1236 and 1251, during the Goryeo Dynasty (918-1392), and is estimated to contain no fewer than 52 million Chinese characters in the Ou Yang-hsiu style of calligraphy. An invaluable resource for Buddhist studies throughout the world, the canon served as the standard for the newly-revised edition of Japan's canon and was also reintroduced into China. In addition, it has been sent to England, America, France, Germany and other Western nations where it plays an important role in international Buddhist research."
  
• Jongmyo Shrine: "When built, Jongmyo's main hall had the longest floor space of any contemporary wooden building in the world."
  
• Changdeokgung Palace: "Changdeokgung makes an invaluable contribution to our understanding of traditional architecture, landscaping and history."
  
• Hwaseong Fortress: "Bricks, a new building material, were used in the construction, in addition to the more common wood and stone, and a crane-like pulley devise was devised to hoist materials. The fortress was thus a test of modern architectural, engineering and construction techniques."
  
• Hunminjeongeum (later renamed 'Hangeul'): "The alphabet is generally recognized as being both unique and scientific-unique in that it is the only alphabet originally created by a single person at a specific time without being based on a previously known script and scientific because it is based on a knowledge of phonology and phonetics."
  
• Joseonwangjosillok: "A daily, chronological record of events spanning 472 years (1392-1863) it is the longest, continuous historical record in the world and the preservation of the entire work is unprecedented."
  
• Poseokjeong: "Cheomseongdae is the most exquisite example of an astronomical observatory in the Orient."
  
• Dolmen: "Dolmens are megalithic funerary monuments, which are numerous in Asia, Europe, and North Africa. Korea has the greatest number of any country. These are of great archaeological value for the information that they provide about the prehistoric peoples who built them and their social and political systems, beliefs and rituals, arts and ceremonies, etc."
  

Major Early Inventions

• The UNESCO in 1972 made an international announcement that the “Chikchisimgyong” is the oldest metal typed printed book in the world and made the fact acceptable by exhibiting a copy of the book at the exhibition in the international book festival in the same year. This invention (two centuries before Guttenberg) was a great event in the development of medieval printing and a technical achievement of the highest order Korean ancestors had contributed to the development of printing.
• Water clocks were also a standard means of keeping time in Korea as early as the "Three Kingdoms" period, and it was here that one of the first known automatic water clocks was devised in 1434. This clock was called Chagyongnu, which literally translates as "self-striking water clock." When the water reached a certain level, a trigger device released a metal ball which rolled down a chute into a metal drum to "gong the hour."
• The udometer (rain gauge) in 1441.
• The Korean character system, “Hangul,” is completely different from and independent of Chinese and Japanese. ‘Hangul’ was developed by a group of scholars under the patronage of King Sejong in 1443 and is considered by many linguistic scholars to be the most scientific and phonetic alphabet ever created.
• The Korean Turtle Ship is the first ironclad warship in the world shaped like a turtle that was invented and built by Admiral YI, SOON SHIN in 1592 (16C). During the IM JIN WAR (Korean and Japanese; 1592-1598), under Admiral YI's command, the turtle ships were engaged as the vanguard and brought the seas under their control to lead the country to victory.
  
• Celadon (pottery): Korea produced the most beautiful celadon as Chinese said “The Koryo’ s celadon is wonderful.” The celadon of Koryo dynasty was splendid and elegant because it has affected by Buddhism of nobles centered. This characteristic PunChong stone ware went to Japan during Korea and Japan war in 16th century and it became a staring point of developing of pottery in Japan. At that time of Japan, they have used earthenware, because they could not produced pottery. When Japan invaded Korea in the 1590s, Japanese called the " Pottery war "and they took many Korean potters back to Japan. Among these potters, there was one potter who named "Yi SamPyong." And Japanese called him the father of pottery in Japan.

The Korean War (1950-1953)

• Often called ‘The Forgotten War’ and yet many scholars would refer to it as World War 3 since the East and West were engaged in armed conflict on a massive scale.
• Top-secret documents recently made public show that nuclear weapons were moved onto the peninsula. MacArthur had prepared more than a dozen locations in China for nuclear bombing. Only one man, the President of the United States, had the power to stop him.
• The first jet-to-jet dogfights took place during this war. “MiG Alley” was coined.
• North and South Korea are still technically at war as the Armistice Agreement has yet to be upgraded to a Peace Agreement, making the Korean War one of the longest wars in modern history.
• The Demilitarized Zone between North and South Korea is the world’s most heavily fortified border comprising over 1,000,000 landmines and nearly that same number of troops on both sides of the border on the highest alert. Bill Clinton when visiting there called it “The Scariest Place on Earth.”
• The United States still has stationed nearly 50,000 troops in South Korea and considers that area to be the geo-political flashpoint for all of the Asia-Pacific...as history has proven again and again.

Historical Outline

• Korea has one of the world’s oldest continuous civilizations.
• 600,000 years ago: Archeological findings have indicated beginnings of settlement in the Korea peninsula.
• 2333 B.C. : The legendary figure Tangun founded Ko-Chosun, the first Korean kingdom, at Pyungyang in the northern part of the peninsula.
• 57 B.C ~ A.D. 668 : Three Kingdoms Period
• Koguryo Kingdom (37 B.C. ~ A.D. 668 )
• Paeche Kingdom (18 B.C. ~ A.D. 660 )
• Shilla Kingdom( 57 B.C. ~ A.D. 676 )
• A.D. 676 ~ 935 : United Shilla Kingdom( Capital : Kyungju)
• A.D. 918 ~ 1392 : Koryo Dynasty (Capital: Kaesong located in North Korea),
• Buddhism became the state religion and greatly influenced politics and administration.
• 13th century : Mongolian invasions.
• 1392 ~ 1910 : Choson Dynasty (Capital Seoul). Complete organization of the state on Neo-Confucianist principles.
• 1418 ~ 1450 : Reign of King Sejong during his reign the native alphabet, Hangul, was invented.
• 1592 ~ 1598 : Japanese invasions, defeated by such national heroes as Admiral Yi-Sun-shin.
• 1876: The so-called "Hermit Kingdom" opened its ports to foreigners.
• 1910 ~ 1945: Japanese colonial rule.
• 1945: Division of Korea into north and south
• 1948: Proclamation of the Republic of Korea(south) on August 15, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea(north) on September 9.
• 1950 ~ 1953 : Korean War, armistice signed
• 1972 to present : Negotiations between South and North Korea for peace and reunification
• 1988: Hosting of the 24th Olympiad, which marked the beginning of relations with Central and Eastern Europe
• Sep. 1991: South and North Korea were simultaneously admitted to the United Nations.

[BeBro]

Wow, a lot of work, and many good points, but a link would be enough I think

[yin26]

That info was put together from over 20 web sites. In fact, from my research, I have just posted the most comprehensive "at-a-glance" look at Korea ANYWHERE. LOL!

[Saint Marcus]

Korea's influence in world history is rather limited I'm afraid, compared to many of the left-out civs like Spain, Holland and the Arabs.

[yin26]

If you mean in the sense that Koreans didn't conquer other nations or force their own culture on others, you have a point. Sad, though, we would tend to use that measure for a "real civ" in Civ 3. Then again, it is a game about warmongers, right?

[Saint Marcus]

In general, the Koreans didn't have as much influence in world history as the Dutch, Spanish and Arabs. Not just in warfare (since the Chinese and Egyptians aren't exactly know for their military achievements either)

[monkspider]

Awesome, awesome stuff Yin. I hope you create a web site with all this info on it, this is great resource for information. Please keep the Apolyton community updated if you do. I have tried many times to rally support for the Korean civilization in the expansion pack civs thread.

[Saint Marcus]

MarkL: First, things like inventing the moveable type printing press TWO HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE it happened in the West is significant, especially considering that the printing press is often considered THE major invention of the millenium. And in modern times, Korea is not too far off from becoming one of the world's TOP 10 economies. So anybody who dismisses Korea as some insignificant civ is just ignorant. I am not accusing YOU of being ignorant, however.

There are dozens of inventions made by ancient civs who are not included in Civ3 for good reasons. Second, being among the top 10 world economies should have little to do with a placing in civ3. I don't see an Italian civ in there (the Romans are not the Italians), nor a Dutch civ, a Spanish Civ, a Brazilian civ, a Arabian civ, etc. There are tonnes of civs who should be put in the game before even considering the Koreans. Examples? Easy. Arabs, Spanish, Dutch, Vikings, Mongols, Incas, Mayas, Portugal, Carthegans/Phoenicians, etc. The Korean civ simply doesn't have or had enough influence to be included in a game like Civ3, or any official updates. Feel free to make your own modpack though, but if you insist that the Koreans are significant civ in world history, you would have to increase the number of civs in the game from 16 to 64, because their are many civs which can make similar claims to Korea's, if not better.

[yin26]

monkspider: Thank you. In fact, I have just such a project underway!

MarkL: First, things like inventing the moveable type printing press TWO HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE it happened in the West is significant, especially considering that the printing press is often considered THE major invention of the millenium. And in modern times, Korea is not too far off from becoming one of the world's TOP 10 economies. So anybody who dismisses Korea as some insignificant civ is just ignorant. I am not accusing YOU of being ignorant, however.

Now, the point for Civ3 is: How would they be fun to play?

I'd make them HARD to play. A kind of underdog civ:

• Reduced ability to expand but increased defensive ability.
• Increased research ability until modern age.
• Added diplomatic bonuses reflecting its non-aggressive stance.
• Near immunity to opposing civ cultural influence (borders CANNOT creep into Korean territory) but conversely much slower influence over OTHER civs' borders.
• Special Unit: Turtle Boat (most effective from 15-17th centuries): Nearly impossible to sink but has slow and rather poor offense.
• Special Tech: Printing Press: From time of discovery (usually early 13th century), adds for 20 turns a Golden Age of Learning (science bonuses) and major cultural influence over surrounding areas...one of Korea's best chances to expand its borders. Yes, Korea's Golden Age should be triggered by this PEACEFUL discovery.
• Special Trade Item: Celadon Pottery, which can only be produced in small quantities but is highly sought after by ALL civs.
• Major bonuses to worker productivity in the Modern Age but also increased chance for worker strikes unless full Democracy is implemented.

So, you'd have a unique civ that defends itself extremely well but has an awfully hard time to expand. Thus, even with its good research abilities, it has problems funding any major expansion efforts and would really need to promote peaceful trade in order to make its money. Its increased worker productivity would only come into effect under a full democracy, limiting further its ability to go on the offensive.

Wow. That would be a fun civ to play IMO. And really this should be about FUN!

[YefeiPi]

Hey, if the ancient Chinese were war mad, I doubt many of us would be speaking English today. China was once thousands(!) of years ahead of the rest of the world in terms of economy, military, science technology and living standards for many centuries or even longer. However, they didn't really conquer any lands not because they can't, but because they didn't bother to. Does that make them a weak civ? If brutal conquering is the standard of measure for a civilization, the Chinese certainly won't win awards.

[yin26]

Actually, we agree. But you must keep in mind that the West PERCEIVES China to be a serious military threat. Certainly they did what they wanted to (for the most part) with the US spy plane, for instance. And nobody can look at their population and say: "Hey, let's ignore them." And the Chinese DO like to bully. A common saying heard here in Korea, for example, comes from the Chinese: "If we all took a leak on Korea, we could drown it in a yellow sea."

[yin26]

The Korean civ simply doesn't have or had enough influence to be included in a game like Civ3, or any official updates.

We can debate the "influence" issue forever about ANY civ. Even the ones included. You can choose to look at periods of time when certain civs (**ahem** the U.S.) weren't even around. Certainly the Korea of the 16th was one of the most influential of its time. And as I have stressed, the invention of the moveable type printing press was perhaps the most profound invention for humanity since the invention of writing itself.

Ignore it if you will.

However, my other point here is that Korean civ would be a blast to play if setup according to some of my suggestions. And that is the point when discussing Civ 3, because for every reason you give that Korea has NOT had any significant influence, I can give you two more why it HAS. I suppose we could start going toe-to-toe and a lot of misconceptions would get cleared up in the process, but I think my intial opening post here stands strongly on its own.

If you want to pick your favorite civ to be included, go ahead. But you haven't provided any evidence. And if you DO decide to do the work, please put it in another thread dedicated for that purpose. Thanks.

[monkspider]

I agree with Yin, If Korea isn't one of civs in the expansion pack, then who WILL make it in? Korea is right behind the obvious really big ones (Spanish, Mongols, Vikings) and I'm sure a fair arguement could be made for their rivaling even those.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by YefeiPi
China was once thousands(!) of years ahead of the rest of the world in terms of economy, military, science technology and living standards for many centuries or even longer. However, they didn't really conquer any lands not because they can't, but because they didn't bother to.

Actually I would disagree with that. The Chinese certainly was ahead of the rest of the world from the time the Roman Empire collapsed but definitely not by a thousand years. Certainly the Byzantine culture or Islamic culture are not 1000 years or even 500 years behind China in the Tang or Sung period (around AD600-AD1200). 200 years is probably a better number.

I also disagree with the point that China could conquer the world if it bothered to. Emperor Yang Guang of the Sui dynasty failed to even conquer Korea with three expeditions. And the effort he put in to conquer Korea was enormous. So enormous and disturbing to the society that it caused the collapsed of the Sui dynasty. In fact it is the reverse. The Chinese failed to resist invasion by outside cultures many times (during the turbulent years of around AD200-AD600, during the Sung period, the Mongols, and the Manchus) even though it bothered to resist.

The strength of the Chinese is that their development in culture and cultural achievements is in a level that it absorbs surrounding cultures, even cultures that militarily took over the control of the Chinese. So even though the Chinese are not a thousand years ahead and are not capable of conquering the world it is still a strong civ.

[yin26]

Lung said elsewhere:

Japan and China for neighbours. Oh, joy!

Not only that, but the Korean peninsula sticks out there like some kind of juicy apple waiting for either China or Japan to pluck it to feed their own expansionist plans. The fact that Korea held them off for so long and so often is amazing to me.

As for Japan finally defeating Korea and occupying the peninsula for nearly 50 years, you might expect Koreans to blame other people for that fiasco. But they are surprisingly up front:

"While we were writing poetry and getting drunk [those were prized elements of an 'advanced culture' at the time], the Japanese were learning advanced war techniques and preparing to attack." This goes to show: NEVER stop spying on people.

Koreans freely admit that its isolationist policies of the 18th and 19th centuries rendered them eventually helpless against a Japan that had been forcibly opened to the new techs of the West. Ironically, it now seems that it is Japan's ultra-nationalistic right wing that is impeding relations with outsiders (look at its history book controversy that ignores Japan's horrid actions during WW2). Korea, however, is moving along quite quickly, for example, with economic restructuring that Japan so far refuses to do.

So this gets back to one of my earlier points. Defining the "influence of a civ" depends in great part on what slice of history you happen to be living in. As we are still in the shadows of an imperialistic 20th century, most of us were raised thinking of Korea (IF we thought about Korea at all) as a nation too weak to defend itself and only viable today thanks to intervention.

Certainly part of that is true, but to view and know ONLY that is to miss a MUCH bigger picture of what Korea was and is today.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have to agree with MarkL on civ inclusion..

I'd put Arabs, Spanish, Incas, Mongols, Vikings, Carthaginians, and the Italians ahead of Korea.

[yin26]

Yes, yes. That is the canned response. Care to defend your choices, though? Mongols? Why? Because of mass invasions. What else?...and where are they now? Vikings basically fit that bill as well. Incas? They accomplished nothing greater than did the Koreans...AND where are they now?

If you were to actually sit down and compare any of those to Korea, you wouldn't be putting them first...trust me. However, if those conjure some kind of nostalgic feeling for civs that were powerful for a time and are now all but erased from the earth, feel free.

I would think, though, a "great" civ would have somehow managed to survive into the 21st century, eh? If you want to look at dead civs that did great things, that is fine. But why over-look a LIVING civ that DID and CONTINUES to do great things?

Alas, romantic and spotty history...

[yin26]

By the way, I still understand that Civ3 is primarily a western game for western gamers. Thus, it should reflect the western "take" on history (the facts be damned).

[yin26]

Just some quick perspective on the Mongols:

It is noteworthy that the Mongols as a unified people did not exist as a political reality until the advent of Chingis Khan.

So, while Korea was busy inventing the printing press, the Mongols barely even existed.

The year 1206: The Founder and Father of the Mongol nation, Temuchin, who took the name Chingis Khan, emerged as the "leader of all people living in felt tents."

O.K. Looks like we have the beginning of a long and glorious civ in this Khan fellow...

The Mongols were completely expelled from China by 1382 and soon thereafter lapsed into relative obscurity.

Ooops. Guess not. So, the Mongols were on the historical map from 1206 to 1382. WOW! And, of course, I'd list all their great inventions...but I can't seem to find any.

There is really only ONE justifiable reason why people want the Mongols in Civ3: Because under ONE man and for a very short time they were the scariest thing on earth, eating up land at will. Sure, what civ player wouldn't want that image in their minds as the leader of their civ?

But we are talking barely a blink in the eye of history with the Mongols, and virtually NO (any) contribution they made to mankind that benefits us today. Sure...take them for fantasy of the mind but do NOT place them above Korea in terms of historical significance.

[yin26]

And the Vikings:

With their invention of the longship, the Vikings spurred a literal sea change in medieval European affairs.

That has merit. Of course, the first iron-clad ship invented by Koreans has substantial merit itself.

Viking, also called NORSEMAN, or NORTHMAN, member of the Scandinavian seafaring warriors who raided and colonized wide areas of Europe from the 9th to the 11th century and whose disruptive influence profoundly affected European history. The Viking Age is traditionally defined as beginning with the attack by scandinavian raiders on the Monastery of Lindisfarne on the north coast of England in (June) 793 (though there were other raids earlier) and ending with the failure of the Norse invasion of England and the death of King Harald Hardrathi at the Battle of Stamford Bridge on September 25, 1066 just before the Battle of Hastings. Individual areas of study may use slightly different time periods

Again, note the relative BREVITY of their existence! Korean history goes back to B.C. and still continues, will all kinds of inventions and history along the way. Also note that the Viking's influence, as with the Mongols, was primarily "DISRUPTIVE".

No description made by the contemporaries of the Vikings gives exact or detailed information of their society. The whole conception must be gathered from small pieces of information: runic stones, archeological findings and literal sources. The law texts that have been considered as reliable sources of evidence are, however, inaccurate, since in many cases they were written after the event.

Hmmm. So really all we know about the Vikings is that made some awesome ships and made their name over a few centuries by ransaking places...and then faded away.

Again, I ask you: Why the Vikings over the Koreas? Certainly it has NOTHING to do with the relative 'quality' of the civ's cultural contributions to the world or its longevity. What it has EVERYTHING to do with, however, is this:

Vikings! The word conjures up image of wild, barbaric, sea faring men, intent on setting their mark on their less warlike neighbours with fire and sword. From the land of ice and giants, they swept across Europe like a forest fire raping, pillaging and destroying all in their path.

Like I said, this is fine and good for an image in Civ 3. I'm not against the Mongols or the Vikings in Civ. But let's just be clear what we are thinking of when we talk about putting them before Korea. We are talking about putting civs with a very short but horribly brutal history of destruction over a civ STILL in existence that has made serveral amazing inventions, survived nearly 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years AND maintains an important place in the world today.

So, if people want to tell me: "I prefer the Mongols and Vikings for that 'kick a$$ feeling I get when I plunder another civ," that's totally fine by me. Just realize that in terms of cultural 'merit,' Korea has it all over either of them.

[Sun Zi 36]

I wouldn't put the Mongols or Vikings b4 the Koreans. I would rather regard the Mongols and Vikings as really strong barbarians (if the barbarians are strong enough in civ3). If you are playing an East Asian game then yes, I would include Korea as a civilization. But in a world game, the Korean civilization just isn't distinct enough from the Chinese and Japanese to be regarded as a civilization. So the Incans are a VERY distinct civilization.

Yes, you would argue that the difference between the French and Germans would probably be similar to the difference between Korean and China or Japan. But then the French and the Germans qualify as a great civilization more than the Koreans. And I don't just mean in terms of colonization and conquest and stuff. In terms of scientific, idealistc achievements etc. (eg the French revolution).

[YefeiPi]

Actually, we agree. But you must keep in mind that the West PERCEIVES China to be a serious military threat. Certainly they did what they wanted to (for the most part) with the US spy plane, for instance. And nobody can look at their population and say: "Hey, let's ignore them." And the Chinese DO like to bully. A common saying heard here in Korea, for example, comes from the Chinese: "If we all took a leak on Korea, we could drown it in a yellow sea."

Yin, I'm not talking about modern day China, because it is not doing nearly as well as it was before. Also the population of the Chinese is a factor to be feared of, however, it isn't what China is all about. It's about thousands and thousands of years of civilization, technological breakthroughs and influence.

As being a Chinese myself, your quote of "If we all took a leak on Korea, we could drown it in a yellow sea" is never heard of. And I'm sure you are probably not Chinese, so please do double check your quote.

Korea's history, although ancient, really did have too much impact on history and i'm not saying other civs which are supposed to be included are worthy. Korea and Japan in the ancient times, if you know history very well, were very Chinese like because of China's immense influence all over Asia, not in Europe because it isn't that developed yet. Did you know that Chinese used to be the official language of Korea? And Japanese as well? That's why Japan still have Chinese characters in their writing language and added a bunch of their own because they tried to differ themselves as an independent nation. Korea did the same thing, it has developed its language as well.

So all in all, with Korea's invention of first moveable printing press, turtle boat, and other impressive things, it just didn't have too much influence and impact on history's development. Then again, I believe many other civs other people suggested are not worthy either.


P.S I would rather choose Korea to replace Japanese at any time.

[YefeiPi]

I also disagree with the point that China could conquer the world if it bothered to. Emperor Yang Guang of the Sui dynasty failed to even conquer Korea with three expeditions. And the effort he put in to conquer Korea was enormous. So enormous and disturbing to the society that it caused the collapsed of the Sui dynasty. In fact it is the reverse. The Chinese failed to resist invasion by outside cultures many times (during the turbulent years of around AD200-AD600, during the Sung period, the Mongols, and the Manchus) even though it bothered to resist.

Well, you can't say Sui dynasty is even close to China's peak, it is just a period of time where China was reunified, no major achievements really during that time of period. Conquering Korea could not have been difficult during the Tang and Sung, after all, sure the Koreans would have fought bravely, but the military might of China at that time can probably crush any country easily. Also the fact the Yuan dynasty, in which the mongols ruled, even as barbaric as they were, they still respected the Chinese immensely, and had all the top officials be Chinese because mongols knew only they had the ability to govern well. Ghenghis Khan, believe it or not, spoke fluent Chinese, and was very much assimilated into the Chinese culture.

Now onto Manchu dynasty, (or the qing dynasty, not qin), the manchus are not foreign as the mongols as all! In fact, they are the Chinese! China has 56 minority groups with Han being the main group, Manchu was one of the 56 minority groups but they are just as Chinese as the Hans except for some unique traditions. So you can't say that Manchu dynasty was foreign governed at all!

I would personally believe that China, in the past, had been extremely glorious and mighty. However, the nation had been in toil since the end of Manchu dynasty because of isolationist beliefs and generally cut off from the rest of the world. I do believe China has a very bright future, the past glory will once again return to the motherland where proud billions of people were, are, and will be nourished.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, yes. That is the canned response. Care to defend your choices, though? Mongols? Why? Because of mass invasions. What else?...and where are they now? Vikings basically fit that bill as well. Incas? They accomplished nothing greater than did the Koreans...AND where are they now?

Because for a brief, shining moment, they were the most feared civilizations in the world. The Mongols have had, to this day, the largest land empire EVER in the history of the world. They threatened Europe! They are responsible for a lot of the problems that developed in the Muslim world, after they razed Muslim centers of learning to the ground.

The Vikings are another group that inspired fears into their respective area. They ransacked much of today's United Kingdom, and even went as far south as in the Mediterranean, and were known as some of the most fearsome invaders in European history.

The Mongols and Vikings (as well as the Incas) have their own unique brand of culture. The Mongols, while influenced heavily by the Chinese had a nomadic, barbaric culture which would be very unique in Civ3 if they were to be added. The Vikings were a great seafaring nation, which a unique culture of their own (Viking Skalds, for example). The Incas, of course, are unique themselves, which interesting cultural quirks that no Civ in Civ3 (closest being the Aztecs) really represents.

The Koreans? As pointed out above. Their culture really didn't differ ALL that much from China or Japan. It is kind of like claiming, IMO, that the Celts should be included.

[yin26]

Because for a brief, shining moment, they were the most feared civilizations in the world.

O.K. I understand this reasoning. Although I think using the term 'civilization' for them is being kind.

I would rather choose Korea to replace Japanese at any time.

AGREED! Unfotunately, most people in the West are not really taught the difference between China, Korea and Japan. Korea, for now, is the forgotten one.

But in a world game, the Korean civilization just isn't distinct enough from the Chinese and Japanese to be regarded as a civilization.

I think your wording is off here a bit. There is no doubting that Korea was and is an impressive civilization. But, I agree with your general idea that when the West looks at the Far East, "China and Japan" immediately come to mind. And if you have to pick ONE for the game, China is the best choice.

But as I have argued, Japan was way ahead of Japan until the late 19th, early 20th century, at which point Korea was making the fateful decision to bury its head in the sand and not deal with the West. I predict, however, by the end of the 21st century, Korea will surpass Japan in world standing...and a great resurgance in understanding its history will become standard in the United States and other countries around the world.

So, by Civ8, I think the place of Korea in the game will be taken for granted. I'm just giving you guys all a sneak preview.

[YefeiPi]

This game is developed by Sid Meier, an american, so of course more civs are located in the west.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There is no doubting that Korea was and is an impressive civilization.

I meant as a Civilization (the game) civilization. In that respect the cultural differences between Korea vs. China and Japan are too slight for them to be considered over, say... the Mongols or Vikings or Incas, who's civs are vastly different culturally than anything else out there.

I think that is the main reason the Iriqouis are included in the game (I'd rather they be replaced with Incas).

The arguments for Korea to be included in the game, seem somewhat similar for arguments to include the Austrians or the Polish in the game (more similar to the argument for Poland to be included).

[ruckus9]

Hi this is my first time posting on Apolyton but I've been browsing the Civ 3 forums for a little while now and i just couldn't resist reading this thread. I didn't plan on posting anything but I just have to compliment yin26 on all that great information about the Korean civilization. I didn't know Koreans did all of that! Especially about Koreans inventing the moveable type printing press 200 years earlier. As a Korean American I'm taught alot about "western civilization" and I'm glad to see that Koreans have accomplished alot too and are not just shadows of Japan or China. From firsthand experience I know that Koreans are very different from the Chinese or Japanese and I am annoyed that many people stereotype Korean culture as just a Chinese or Japanes knock-off. Personally I want the Koreans in Civ 3 and I would definitely play with them. I guess I am biased but it's just my opinion.

[Saint Marcus]

Yin...you have made some very nice arguments. And you've partially convinced me. Korea's inventions of the Ironclad and Printin Press were amazing.

Howerever, and here lies the big problem, it didn't have much influence on the world. Did the Koreans use their Ironclads to conquer their neighbours? Did (m)any other nations copy their design? No and no. Did the Korean Printing Press revolutionise the world? Also no. The German/Dutch printing press did though.

The point is, it isn't about scientific discoveries or a long lasting culture. The civs in Civ3 are chosen because they, for at least a short period of time, had a HUGE influence on the world.

Ok, we all now the Iroquis and Zulus don't qualify, but the other 14 surely do. As do the Vikings, Mongols, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, Italians, Arabs, Ottomans, Carthagians, Phoenicians, Incas, etc. The Koreans do not. Neither do the Zulus, Iroquis, Ethiopians, Khmer, etc. Their impact is but a footnote in the annals of world history. That doesn't mean that they didn't achieve some marvelous things though.

[yin26]

ruckus9

Hey, I encourage you to read Korean history! In fact, it is one of the "up and coming" areas in academia today. A number of Korean Studies departments are starting to open up, but there aren't enough people qualified yet to meet the demand. In other words, you could make a nice career out of helping universities correct the errors/gaps in their Asian history departments, etc.

In NO way was Korea a Chinese or Japanese knockoff. Yes, Korea used Chinese CHARACTERS for academic purposes (and thus 70% of its vocabulary can be traced to Chinese characters), but Korea ALWAYS had its own language and eventually found the Chinese system so unruly and so unfitting to their own tongue that they invented their own writing system...considered perhaps the best ever devised.

As for Japan, there was very little on those islands before KOREA influenced and even sent people there. For a long, long time Japan depended on Korea for its advancements. Pottery is a good example. But, as I've pointed out, Korea decided to close its doors just as Japan was being infused with Western techs...and to this day Korea is suffering from that lack of foresight, but the lesson seems to have been learned.