The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Finally, you seem to want links to sources, but I can't oblige. I'm of the opinion that most web sources are useless, especially when discussing a topic as obscure as this. Why should I search high and low for a website that will have less information than a book I have at my fingertips? Most websites are rather short and cursory, like that site you linked to. Only six paragraphs on the Yayoi? What a joke. My "brief history" of both Japan and China has three pages on the Yayoi. If you really want to know about early Japan, you should read the first volume of "The Cambridge History of Japan". Truly an excellent source. I'll list more books, if you really want to know where I've gotten my information from. I can't make any guarantees that I'll remember magazine and journal articles I've read.

Dear Drake Tungsten,

I am glad you joined this debate! When there are studies about Japan or Korea that you can recommend in particular, please list them here! I cannot promise I will read them all, but I am curious at least. In general -this will perhaps surprise some poster who seems to know my tastes better than I do myself- I am far more interested in early history, though pre-history is generally not my topic. So studies that end in about 1600AD or earlier would be fine.

It is a pity a "Cambridge History of Korea" does not exits yet. That situation should definitely be amended. By the way, what's your opinion about the work of Fairbank and Reischauer?

Thanking you in advance!

S.Kroeze

[yin26]

Drake: No worries, and thanks for the kind clarification.

[siredgar]

See post below.

[siredgar]

Dear Drake,

In this message, I will refrain from using real evidence, such as quotes from books and Web sites, since you seem to disregard the ones I have posted from books and believe most Web sites are "useless" resources. Instead, like you, I will use feelings, impressions, and general opinions that I have acquired through my readings.

This is primarily because I have asked you to show me any evidence, that is quotes from any source, and you have not. If you would like to engage in a worthy discussion, please do not simply list a book or two, but make a point and then post a quote with its source (author, publication, and year).

Anyhow, if you need to "search high and low" for a Web site that will support your argument, while it takes me less than 30 minutes to produce 12 solid quotes from different sources to support mine, then you may have to re-think the strength of your position.

I deliberately selected "short and cursory" sources to provide evidence in an expedient manner and, at the same time, not burden you with a lengthy read simply to prove a specific point. Regardless, if you consider information from PBS and the Metropolitan Museum "useless", then I cannot have a discussion with you.

--

Drake:
It is misleading to refer to the culture of Paekche as "Korean".

Edgar:
Why don't you go tell that to a professor of Korean history, or someone walking down a street in Seoul for that matter, and see what kind of a response you get?

I doubt you question the culture of Yamato as "Japanese" and yet you have skepticism of Paekche's Korean qualities. Could Yamato be "Korean"? I'm sure you wouldn't even think of that as a possibility and yet other scholars have speculated about this. I do not, Paekche is Korean and Yamato is Japanese.

Drake:
We don't even know what language was spoken in Paekche; one interesting theory proposes that Paekche's language was closer to Japanese than Korean.

Edgar:
LOL. Of course, you phrase it that Paekche's language may have been closer to Japanese than Korean and not the other way around.

Are you suggesting that Japanese were sent to Korea to teach writing and help build a civilization? No, wait, it was the Koreans who were sent to Japan!

There is no evidence of Japanese being sent to Korea during this period for teaching purposes, except maybe in learning how to be pillaged by barbarians.

Could it be that the Japanese language was similar to Paekche's language because it inherited many traits from it, not the other way around. Paekche is "Korean", case closed.

Drake:
Anyway, my point is that even referring to the influx of Paekche's culture in Japan as a "Korean" influence is debatable.

Edgar:
Really, this is tiring. "You don't seem to get what I'm saying." I have given you specific evidence that distinctly Korean influence, especially through Paekche, played an important role in shaping early Japanese civilization. If you would like more evidence, I am prepared to compile an exhaustive list.

Drake:
I never claimed that there was a Japanese civilization before the 7th century. I claimed that there was a distinct Japanese culture. There is a difference between a civilization and a culture.

Edgar:
Yes, and it is the Koreans who helped convert it from a "culture" to a "civilization."

So, there is a distinct Japanese culture prior to the 7th century and yet there is no distinct Korean culture at that time? That is what you are suggesting by saying that Paekche is not "Korean", etc.

Drake:
Once again, these were mostly Chinese advance merely transmitted through Korea. I don't know how that is relevant.

Edgar:
While many of the civilization advances were Chinese and "merely transmitted through Korea", the vast majority were distinctly Korean in their qualities. They were developed in Korea and very unlike Chinese ones. Many historians and archaeologists are now recognizing this and de-emphasizing Korea as simply a "bridge" between China and Japan.

If you cannot accept this, then I give up on this discussion because it means that you have deep respect for the Chinese civilization and none for the Korean one. Korean civilization existed long before Japanese "culture" made its steps toward civilization.

Drake:
Today's Korean culture is descended from the culture of Silla.

Edgar:
"It is obvious that you lack expertise in this area."

Paekche and Koguryo culture remained significant forces in Korea long after Shilla rule. They especially continued to exert regional influence, despite Shilla domination.

Drake:
Anyway, a major problem I see with your arguments is that you don't distinguish between the early colonizers of Japan, called the Yayoi, and later Koreans.

Edgar:
You're right. I don't. I see the Yayoi as "Korean" migrants who helped form the basis of Japanese "culture", as you call it. However, I attribute much of early Japanese civilization to Paekche influence, which is more important.

--

It is without doubt that I have challenged the "orthodox" interpretation of Korean pre-history. That is partly because through my education and additional research, I have become highly suspect of the Western take on a lesser known Asian civilization's story.

Best regards,

Edgar

[siredgar]

Does anyone have good information on the general acceptance of "Korea" over "Corea"? I still haven't gotten a clear verdict on this issue.

[yin26]

That's an interesting story, if I have it right:

The Japanese, seeing 'Corea' come before 'Japan' in the English Alphabetical order [C before J] changed the spelling to 'Korea' [K after J]. Honestly, I have heard from 'good authority' on this one!

[yin26]

http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Corea/corea.html

During that period Japan mounted a campaign to push for the "Korea" useage by the American press. Why? For one of Japan's prospective colonies to precede its master in the alphabetical lineup of nations would be unseemly, Japanese imperialists decided.

[yin26]

So you will often see partriotic or learned people still use the Corea spelling. Perhaps I should, too!

[siredgar]

Yes, yes, I have read this Web page before, actually while doing a search about Korean girls, but there is no actual evidence listed there.

I am familiar with the French calling Korea "La Coree", etc and I have also heard about this Japanese campaign to change the spelling of the country, but I have yet to see any hard facts.

I'm looking for something more substantive.

Thanks though.

[yin26]

Hmm, I've read it in more than a few places...but don't have the texts in front of me. Seems like something the Japanese would do, though. It was all part of stamping Korean (Corean) culture off the face of the Earth.

[siredgar]

I don't think I'd start using the spelling "Corea" anyhow. I agree with the poster on the GoldSea Web site.

[siredgar]

"The Cambridge History of Korea, Vol. III" is forthcoming.

Contributors include John Duncan (Director of Korean Studies, UCLA), Charles Armstrong (Asst. Prof., Columbia Univ.), and Fujiya Kawashima (Prof., Bowling Green State Univ.).

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by siredgar
Does anyone have good information on the general acceptance of "Korea" over "Corea"? I still haven't gotten a clear verdict on this issue.

I have also heard from good authority (my father, who is a professor in Korea) that the original spelling of Korea was actually Corea, but the name was changed by the Japanese invaders. The French still use the "C" spelling: la corée du sud, la corée du nord. I believe most other countries in Europe (I know Germany does) uses the "K" spelling, though.

[Veracitas]

btw, does anyone know who is working on the Expansion Pack Civs for Korea/Corea??

[Veracitas]

lol, sorry I didn't see the article that yin had posted below. It's pretty interesting, but I think the most interesting part is the Korean response:

Being KOREAN myself, I prefer the K. Here are my thoughts on what I've been reading here. I do not believe that it is beneficial to revert everything back to pre-Japanese occupation standards. That part of history, dark as it is, is still a part of Korean identity. The defense using the Romance Languages and other European languages as a reason to promote the Corea spelling change is JUST PLAIN SILLY! The general population of North and South Korea are the ones who would promote the change, (if even they wanted to change the name at all) and NOT their Korean-American counterparts. Moving on, I am NOT going to change what is part of my identity for the "politically correct" nitpickers of Asian-American descent.
Offended and Outraged KOREAN

Personally, I like "Corea," but then I'm Jeh Me GyeoPo (Corean American). I think he's wrong, though, in that only Coreans in Corea should have authority over the change in name, because this is how we refer to ourselves when dealing with other Asians...nay, people in general.

Here's an idea, why don't we just call Corea what it calls itself: "The Land of the Great Han People." Then I could introduce myself as a "Great Han Person." I'm sure that would go over well, lol

[yin26]

LOL! Yes, well...

I wonder would people would think if Japan changed the name completely to Crap, Land of the Losers. I bet you people would have jumped to change the name back in that case. So what this really comes down to is not 'political correctness,' which doesn't apply in this case to begin with, but whether or not you think A) the change from a C to a K is worth the trouble and B) whether or not you think the history of the change is important to begin with.

Frankly, most Coreans I have met (yes, using the C for emphasis) don't want to think much about the past. Can't really blame them. 'Move on,' they say.

All well and good.

But I think there is great value in spelling it as Corea if only to get people to say: "Hey, you mispelled Korea ... or am I missing something?"

At which point I can say: "Yes, as a matter of fact you are. Let me share with you some history about the mighty Japanese ..."

I think if you live in a world that can't remember yesterday, you are at least obliged to sit quietly while things are explained to you.

By the way, most Coreans overseas wouldn't be against the change because of "That's part of my history." Bullshit. Most Coreans overseas wouldn't change it because they don't understand -- or just avoid -- their Corean identity in the first place.

[Veracitas]

yin,

I think you're very right about how overseas Coreans either do not truly understand their ancestral identity or don't really want to. Personally, I have visited Corea maybe 15 times--ever since I was a little child to the present--and I probably did not truly get a feel for the place until only my very recent visit (taking classes at Seoul National Univ for a semester, living in Seoul for my first time--I had always before gone to more rural Chonnam). Now, I am only beginning to learn what a complex and rich world my ancestral culture really was.

And I also think you're right about how Coreans tend to not like their past. The only things that are in their most recent memories are the brutalities of the Japanese invaders and the equally horrific Corean War...

here's an excerpt from Michael Breen's book "The Koreans":

Koreans are very much int he here and now. Although they have a very long and remarkably well-documented history, they take little genuine pride in it. They prefer to tkae you to a Samsung Electronics plant than to an ancient temple. As one whose eyes also glaze over in castles and temples, it took me a while to figure that the Koreans' attitude to their history was unusual. This revelation came one dark evening in the bar of the Seoul Foreign Correspondens' Club, which is on the eighteenth floor of a building where my office was, bang in the centre of the city. We were talking about tourism.
'What do you see out there?' said a Korean friend, a tourism expert. He was pointing to the grounds of the historic Doksu Palace. It was pitch dark.'
'Where?'
'Down there.' He pointed again.
'Well, it's Doksu Palace, but you can't really make it out,' I said.
'Exactly,' he said.
'What?' I wasn't quite following this Socratic method.
'Can you imagine any other major capital city in the world which hides its most historic sites like this? All the other palaces are the same. You can't see them at night. They should be floodlit for everyone to see.'
This piece of common sense had never occursed to me and I had never heard it mentioned before. You get so used to things. In the centre of this modern city, amidt he lights from offices where people were workign late, the street lights and cars, were patches of blackness that concealed its most fascinating monuments.
'Is it because they don't know what tourists like to see?' I ventured, instinctively proposing that we criticise the government.
'It's because we Koreans hate our history,' he said. 'We don't want to think about it and we don't want to show it.'
He was only partly right. Koreans have bought into a negative view oftheir own history in this century. They do not have a regard for their past, not just because it is painful, but more significantly because they do not know how to look at it.'

[yin26]

That's a great exerpt. Precisely what I have encountered over my 5 years here in Seoul. That's why, I think, my 'Corea, Did you Know?' -- soon to be -- book got such positive reviews by overseas Coreans. They told me point-blank: "I never knew that I had any reason to be proud to be Corean!"

Imagine that. How sad. I hope to fight that trend...and it's great you came back here to live for a while. Bravo!

[Q Classic]

dp

[Q Classic]

That's a great exerpt. Precisely what I have encountered over my 5 years here in Seoul. That's why, I think, my 'Corea, Did you Know?' -- soon to be -- book got such positive reviews by overseas Coreans. They told me point-blank: "I never knew that I had any reason to be proud to be Corean!"

Imagine that. How sad. I hope to fight that trend...and it's great you came back here to live for a while. Bravo!

i dunno, the main problem that i have is in trying to educate others.

maybe it's me, maybe it's just that they don't care, but it's awfully disenheartening and discouraging and draining to try to tell people about korea, and then they go and pretty much ignore everything you've said about it.

i've run into this problem more than once when i've been talking with people, and when i suggest something about korea, sometimes jokingly they'll say that japan does it better or some such. or that they're superior or some such.

needless to say, it often kills conversation. the biting thing about this, though, is that it comes from friends, and it doesn't ever exactly register that what they say is rather... unpleasant... so to speak. even after repeated reactions, as well as numerous comments.

is it any wonder some koreans/coreans who know their history are tired of it and don't want to talk about it any more? i've gotten to that point. i'm tired of arguing how we're different from the japanese, and such.

good god, since most of america thinks i'm chinese, i might as well let them.

[yin26]

Yes, I understand that situation perfectly. This is why I finally am comfortable letting people tell me that 'Your white face can do more to convince people than my yellow one can.' For years I totally argued against that way of thinking. Sadly, it seems true. Of course, it's a Catch 22. How can a white face really know all the complexities? I can't. All I can do is to combat some of the initial ignorance and try to instill some initial curiosity and interest in Corea.

You can't erase a century of mis-information overnight. It's gonna take a few generations more, at least. But the day is slowly coming, I tell you. Already major universities in the world are starting to try to add honest to goodness Korean Studies departments (most now are worse than useless). Within 20 years, you'll see Corea being studied as much if not more than China or Japan.

I'm happy to be in on the ground floor, I guess, where I might still have some impact. Q-Cubed: You most certainly can as well.

[Q Classic]

yes, i suppose. uchicago is adding a lot of things to their east asian studies division (they do have a pretty good curriculum)... but i'm not interested in majoring there, at least not as undergrad.

anyway, i will say that you're prolly one of the best allies here. you've got better access to the resources than i do at the moment, and you have a wee bit more time to think out your answers.

[knott]

Is it only in Sweden we always talk about North and South Korea?

[yin26]

No. It's the same here in South Corea, of course. I tend to think of the South as the only responsible world member, though, and the North as a kind of unfortunate (and still dangerous) backwater. Still, reunification might happen in our lifetime ...

[siredgar]

If I'm not mistaken, Sweden recognizes both North and South Korea. Thus, it is more important to make a distinction for Swedes than others.

Unfortunately, a taxi driver for one South Korean could not make the distinction and drove him to the Embassy of North Korea where he was detained by officials there. This may have occurred in Norway, not Sweden, however.

[Q Classic]

here's a link to another thread, specifically suggestions on what the korean civ would look:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=38340

[Q Classic]

and see, about that poor korean detained at the nkorean embassy...

i want to laugh, i really do.

i just have to stop imagining myself in his position.

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by yin26
That's a great exerpt. Precisely what I have encountered over my 5 years here in Seoul. That's why, I think, my 'Corea, Did you Know?' -- soon to be -- book got such positive reviews by overseas Coreans. They told me point-blank: "I never knew that I had any reason to be proud to be Corean!"

Imagine that. How sad. I hope to fight that trend...and it's great you came back here to live for a while. Bravo!

yay for promoting the Corean cause worldwide. I just got back, but I definitely learned a lot while I was there. I would definitely encourage all Coreans to experience their mother country firsthand.

[Veracitas]

btw, where can I get a copy of this soon-to-be book?

[yin26]

That will all depend on what my new job demands of me. I'll be working with Fulbright here in Seoul. If I'm lucky, I'll have it ready by the end of 2002. More like sometime 2003. But I'll be very sure to post about it here when it's done!

Thanks for the support on the idea, though. What brought you to Corea?